StarFox Zero (Wii-U)

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

16 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Ok seriously, what's with Nintendo? First Kid Icarus and now Star Fox? They are literally sitting on gold mines in terms of TV content at this point. That was fucking rad! The only thing I didn't like were how the character's movements were animated (kind of looked like they were skipping frames in a lot of cases) but literally everything else was fantastic.

I've said it with Kid Icarus and I'll say it for Star Fox. Nintendo would be down right foolish not to make this into a series.

It's as baffling as the time they out of the blue,  canned the English dub of the F-Zero anime mid-season despite its warranted popularity.

[Dejimon11]

Well a while back the current Nintendo president did say that he wanted to make animus based off their IPs so it could happen http://gamerant.com/nintendo-nx-anime-mobile-2016/

[Junko]

34 minutes ago, IniMeenieMiney-Jo-Vahexeon said:

It's as baffling as the time they out of the blue,  canned the English dub of the F-Zero anime mid-season despite its warranted popularity.

That was also 12 years ago.

[The Deleter]

So in this video review the guy says you can indeed unlock the retro Arwing and the black Arwing without having to use Amiibos:

 

Good to know, but I hope they aren't the entire mode that you unlock when you get all the medals in every stage. Was hoping for something along the lines of the 64 version's hard mode, or Assault's Xevious port, or something along the lines of that. I dunno, something new at least. I won't hate it if they are what the mode is, but...

Oh, also, apparently there's (slight game content spoilers)

an entire vehicle hidden away inside the game's training mode that hasn't been shown off at all before. It's called the

Roadmaster

, but I don't know what it is outside of that.

Really cool, and makes me glad that I haven't been watching all the videos and stages of the game in anticipation for the game. Going in fresh is always the best thing when there's secrets like these.

[The Deleter]

So I'm playing it right now and... yeah, it's honestly pretty hard to control right off of the bat. Made me go to training mode to try and see if I can even get them down before starting the game.

From the start it honestly feels like a jumbled mess of left-stick flying, right-stick throttling, gyro aiming, and trigger blasting. (and when you treat the gyro as really detached from your movement it's very easy to reset your resting positions for the gamepad often, throwing off your aiming and calibration) A big, uncontrollable mess with no sense of sync I've developed for the buttons/analog combo we all know and use.

Now that I've spent more time with it, though... I can honestly see a good control scheme under it, with a lot of potential. The right-stick being a great example. Everything's analog, and it behaves as if you were controlling a flight stick on a plane very well. Adds a lot of manuverability to the ships, though I still haven't gotten the walker down entirely.

And the Gyro aiming, horrible at first, (honestly didn't have such a problem with splatoon, though) but once you get used to the aiming-reticle Star Fox is known to have, (aiming the lasers in the general line they will go in, not where they will land) I've been able to sort of "feel" where I'm aiming rather than utterly guess, all because the gyro controls give a relative positioning of your trajectory, something that sticks can't do without visuals. I don't even have to look at the bottom screen to aim anymore.

Still not used to the second-screen view, though. Only when in target view do I ever feel safe enough to use it, tbh, mainly because target view stinks for 3rd-person precision control in the field of depth. Hrm. And like I said before, while I've gotten the rest of the vehicles down pretty well, (Landmaster/Gravmaster is AMAZING in this game) I still haven't gotten the walker's steering down. Feels very weird.

It's pretty much just like controlling a new type of RC vehicle, actually. It may not make sense compared to the other controllers you were using beforehand, and it'll seem clunky for clunky's sake at first, but once you get into it, you realize the controls are made incredibly well for the elements they're supposed to control. Fitting, I guess, since that's where the concept of this game came from for Miyamoto.

 

If you can't get the controls down right away, honestly, try doing what I'm doing and use training mode to get better at the game. You'll thank yourself when it makes rest of the game better overall, I'm betting.

[pppp]

3 hours ago, The Deleter said:

So I'm playing it right now and... yeah, it's honestly pretty hard to control right off of the bat. Made me go to training mode to try and see if I can even get them down before starting the game.

From the start it honestly feels like a jumbled mess of left-stick flying, right-stick throttling, gyro aiming, and trigger blasting. (and when you treat the gyro as really detached from your movement it's very easy to reset your resting positions for the gamepad often, throwing off your aiming and calibration) A big, uncontrollable mess with no sense of sync I've developed for the buttons/analog combo we all know and use.

Now that I've spent more time with it, though... I can honestly see a good control scheme under it, with a lot of potential. The right-stick being a great example. Everything's analog, and it behaves as if you were controlling a flight stick on a plane very well. Adds a lot of manuverability to the ships, though I still haven't gotten the walker down entirely.

And the Gyro aiming, horrible at first, (honestly didn't have such a problem with splatoon, though) but once you get used to the aiming-reticle Star Fox is known to have, (aiming the lasers in the general line they will go in, not where they will land) I've been able to sort of "feel" where I'm aiming rather than utterly guess, all because the gyro controls give a relative positioning of your trajectory, something that sticks can't do without visuals. I don't even have to look at the bottom screen to aim anymore.

Still not used to the second-screen view, though. Only when in target view do I ever feel safe enough to use it, tbh, mainly because target view stinks for 3rd-person precision control in the field of depth. Hrm. And like I said before, while I've gotten the rest of the vehicles down pretty well, (Landmaster/Gravmaster is AMAZING in this game) I still haven't gotten the walker's steering down. Feels very weird.

It's pretty much just like controlling a new type of RC vehicle, actually. It may not make sense compared to the other controllers you were using beforehand, and it'll seem clunky for clunky's sake at first, but once you get into it, you realize the controls are made incredibly well for the elements they're supposed to control. Fitting, I guess, since that's where the concept of this game came from for Miyamoto.

 

If you can't get the controls down right away, honestly, try doing what I'm doing and use training mode to get better at the game. You'll thank yourself when it makes rest of the game better overall, I'm betting.

That's bad then. I shouldn't have to replay the tutorial several times to get the hang of things. Controls need to feel like an extension of the player, something that you can do without thinking. If after a tutorial I'm still struggling then the game is just badly designed.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

5 minutes ago, pppp said:

That's bad then. I shouldn't have to replay the tutorial several times to get the hang of things. Controls need to feel like an extension of the player, something that you can do without thinking. If after a tutorial I'm still struggling then the game is just badly designed.

Or it actually has challenge. Used to be you had to adapt to new controls every game in the arcade, people have gotten too soft. I've always had flexibility with controls, never the best, but I learn quickly and become competent.

Only did the training missions(Walker and Landmaster) once, and it seemed to click to me. Been using the move when ZR is pressed, primarily use Gyro in encounters. Got to Titania, then I'm done untl tomorrow, because I'm watching a movie with my sis. Enjoyed the Gyrocopter, thought it was a fun diversion and shakeup. It's fun if you take it as it's own thing. Battles have been great, and I've been having a blast.

Finally I think Co-op may be what really helps boost this up into cult status, base game is fun, but Co-op allows you to bring in a weaker younger player, train him up, and provide a different experience.

[The Deleter]

3 hours ago, pppp said:

That's bad then. I shouldn't have to replay the tutorial several times to get the hang of things. Controls need to feel like an extension of the player, something that you can do without thinking. If after a tutorial I'm still struggling then the game is just badly designed.

I mean not really...

If everyone had that same problem, sure, that probably means the controls are inherently bad and just don't work. But then you've got people who actually get the controls down, whether it be immediately or through practice, and they can typically enjoy them. Love them, even. I know I do now.

I mean thinking about it more, I've seen and tried to "teach" people who haven't played video games ever before, and they seem to have the same issues with dual-analog controls as many people do with this game. Can't sync up movement with aiming/camera control, have trouble keeping their hands in the right places and have to keep looking down at the controller, etc. etc. I've even had people I've tried to "get into" games utterly quit in frustration because they can't get it down, no matter how hard they try.

I know using such situations sounds like a cop-out, but it's a very real parallel when talking about controls inherently. They're may not work for everybody, but does that make them bad objectively?
 

And when you get them down, the controls definitely feel like an extension of yourself. And I mean really feel like an extension of yourself. Aiming is such a breeze you'll hardly even realize you're doing it, and you barely have to look at the gamepad if you're good at it, if ever. And the overall controls really click once you get used to every vehicle. The entirety of the all-range sections are leagues more enjoyable than 64's, Assault's, and Command's, all because of the new control scheme and specifically because of this control scheme, so they really don't feel obtuse for obtuse's sake, again.

I felt the same way as a lot of other players a couple hours ago. I was even worried that I couldn't get them down, and that they'd be just what people think they are: a forced gimmick with obtuse controls, and a useless addition to the game in a series that was perfectly fine without them. Having gotten better, though, I personally think that's not the case; in fact, the controls downright make the game as good as it is, in most areas. So while I can see where everybody else is coming from with their concerns, the controls for this game - once mastered - feel and act overall way too perfectly for me to come to the conclusion that they are forced, objectively bad gimmicks and controls. *shrug*

 

Anyways, I finished the main playthrough recently. I'll go in depth about it later, but for now... it was goooood. Dunno how the game will hold up on multiple playthroughs, but right now in terms of first campaigns, I think this is my favorite Star Fox game out of all of them so far.

Edited April 23, 2016 by The Deleter
So while I /can/ see, lol. I'm not that blind.

[Conando]

Yeah, that's the thing about the aiming mode. You only have to look at the gamepad when aiming at certain enemy weakpoints, like the Spider robots in Corneria 1. The majority of the game you can ignore the lower screen, so I'm not getting the complaints.

[Pompadour]

It really is funny how different everyone's experience with the game is. I'm five stages in, and I absolutely love it so far. The controls are still a bit tricky sometimes, but I've found how to adapt pretty quickly. I find I can just aim without looking at the gamepad most of the time too. I'm still trying to get down the weird side-view stuff during all range mode, but I think with a few more rounds of it, I'll be able to adjust more efficiently.

Also, I actually like all the new machines they've added to the game. The walker's fun, and gets the SF2 fanatic in me giddy that I can finally play that ridiculous chicken thing in an actual released Star Fox game. The gyrowing surprised me with how much I didn't actually mind it, too. In fact.. the only vehicle I'm really struggling with is the Landmaster during all range mode, because geeze, trying to move that thing is a LOT more difficult than I thought it would be. But it isn't unplayable either... I think I can manage it with more practice.

So as of now, I'm really looking forward to continuing where I left off. Maybe with breaks every few stages though... because as nice as the game looks, it's proving to be a game I can't play for long periods of time. It's times like these, that part of me misses the days when games were low poly and simpler on the eyes, haha.

[JezMM]

The game is overall good, but I definitely do have mixed feelings.  Like Assault, I only played three traditional on-rails arwing levels, which is my fave part of Star Fox gameplay.  This game does have the advantage that there are still more stages for me to discover, and at least the non-arwing gameplay is still actually fun.

Also the game is unable to go longer than ten minutes before repeating a scene from 64 vertabim.  Half the dialogue is lifted straight from 64 and it's really distracting and boring.

Ending/Last Boss Spoilers:

 

 

The ENDING is lifted straight from 64 too which was just so unimaginitive.  I enjoyed the nice music on the black credits screen far more than the actual ending because at least they were new.  And the James McCloud ghost stuff isn't handled nearly as nicely and emotionally as it was in 64.  Finally I've heard there is no secret boss, which is really sucky because the final boss FELT like a pre-cursor to a "true" battle, especially what with it mostly being fought in Walker mode, and that tantalising moment where Andross turns around, exposing his weak-point, thinking maybe if you take a harder route, you'll be given the opportunity to do something about that.

 

 

One thing I'm really happy is that the soundtrack consists of mostly original music too.  While Assault's orchestral remake of the 64 soundtrack was pure fanservice, I would have hated for them to just do that again.  The new music is a fantastic blend of the 64 and SNES style, with plenty of modern pizzazz.  The map screen is a standout track where it would have been so easy for them to re-use 64's but didn't.  Great stuff.  I do however wish the game had volume sliders, as I found the sfx just way too loud to enjoy the music most of the time.

[pppp]

7 hours ago, Mando-Whirl-Wind said:

Or it actually has challenge. Used to be you had to adapt to new controls every game in the arcade, people have gotten too soft. I've always had flexibility with controls, never the best, but I learn quickly and become competent.

Only did the training missions(Walker and Landmaster) once, and it seemed to click to me. Been using the move when ZR is pressed, primarily use Gyro in encounters. Got to Titania, then I'm done untl tomorrow, because I'm watching a movie with my sis. Enjoyed the Gyrocopter, thought it was a fun diversion and shakeup. It's fun if you take it as it's own thing. Battles have been great, and I've been having a blast.

Finally I think Co-op may be what really helps boost this up into cult status, base game is fun, but Co-op allows you to bring in a weaker younger player, train him up, and provide a different experience.

Yeah, people had to do that in the arcade....in the 80s and 90s. Most of arcade games had cheap difficulty, but now it's 2016, that shouldn't really be the case. The challenge should only come from actual enemies and level design like in Dark Souls, not from how much time you have to spend practicing till you get the hang of the controls. That's why Sonic and the Secret Rings sucked balls, most people give up cause the controls are incredibly hard to get used to, which again should not be the case in 2016.

[The Deleter]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

The game is overall good, but I definitely do have mixed feelings.  Like Assault, I only played three traditional on-rails arwing levels, which is my fave part of Star Fox gameplay.  This game does have the advantage that there are still more stages for me to discover, and at least the non-arwing gameplay is still actually fun.

Also the game is unable to go longer than ten minutes before repeating a scene from 64 vertabim.  Half the dialogue is lifted straight from 64 and it's really distracting and boring.

Ending/Last Boss Spoilers:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The ENDING is lifted straight from 64 too which was just so unimaginitive.  I enjoyed the nice music on the black credits screen far more than the actual ending because at least they were new.  And the James McCloud ghost stuff isn't handled nearly as nicely and emotionally as it was in 64.  Finally I've heard there is no secret boss, which is really sucky because the final boss FELT like a pre-cursor to a "true" battle, especially what with it mostly being fought in Walker mode.

 

 

One thing I'm really happy is that the soundtrack consists of mostly original music too.  While Assault's orchestral remake of the 64 soundtrack was pure fanservice, I would have hated for them to just do that again.  The new music is a fantastic blend of the 64 and SNES style, with plenty of modern pizzazz.  The map screen is a standout track where it would have been so easy for them to re-use 64's but didn't.  Great stuff.  I do however wish the game had volume sliders, as I found the sfx just way too loud to enjoy the music most of the time.

Yeah, this game has a lot more all-range and 3D sections than 64 did. They feel like actual, fully realized extensions of the arwing's simplistic yet versitile gameplay, though, so I don't mind, and the variety of situations you have to overcome with them is fantastic. Could see that being a bit of a turn off for a lot of people, though.

Also on the topic of the story, considering I was expecting bare-minimum, word-for-word replay of 64 like everyone was saying it was gonna be, I was honestly surprised by it in several ways.

1 being that the dialog has somewhat been re-purposed to be more natural and in different, more appropriate sections than the original, (I feel it was, anyway) 2 being that they actually segway into other stages, (when Slippy was kidnapped in the original I was so confused as to how he got there, in comparison), 3 that they seem to be setting up more "questions" with this story that might be explored further, which is surprising considering how by-the-books it is with the 64 one-liners and no full cutscenes, and 4 (final areas spoilers)

 

the overall way the final area was handled. With, pretty much everything, really. Blasting through space at top speed avoiding debris at every turn, just for Venom to downright disappear from your reach at the end. Then going back through a destroyed Corneria as the final "level" before the final bosses, actually showing what Andross will do outside of the general war against the army. Fox then reaching venom only to find it's a small planetoid prison accessible only through teleporter, (which makes Pepper's banishment of Andross a looooot more suspicious than simply kicking him off several planets is) the trippy maze-section made to access this dimension, (again, really suspicious) and then the general final boss being so unique and being a combination of 64's and SNES's, (he can be fought in Arwing mode on the inside phase, btw.) signifying that this isn't really Andross and that he might still be out there somewhere. And then there's that last bit, running away from everything where you don't know how to take andross out, when out of nowhere fox-dad comes, turns him around, and even though your mind is telling you you can't possibly do a U-turn in such a high-speed escape such as this, your gut makes you do it anyways, and you take out Andross once and for all with a dozen lightning rounds of lasers... 

Okay that last bit just left an impression on me because I'm a goofy dork but eh, it was cool stuff imo.

Agree on Fox's dad stuff, though

I was expecting something so cut-and-dry I would find it utterly boring and painfully rehash-y, which I could deal with as that wasn't what I was looking for with this game, but the way it either outright or ever-so-subtly changed the story up in the last couple of levels really added to the game imo. Maybe it just came from expecting the worst from the get-go, though...

[JezMM]

Honestly, I think it was the fact that (endgame spoilers)

 

they surprised us with some new stuff during the last few stages that made it sting all the harder that the ending was straight lifted from 64, almost shot for shot.

[Candescence]

Okay, I've gone through the regular campaign and arcade mode, and I've had an absolute blast with both. The controls didn't actually take long to handle, actually, I've been getting nothing but silvers and golds since I started. Also, arcade mode is delightfully challenging, since it demands that you essentially complete it all on one life, with a set of gold rings being an 'extra life' that needs to be regained if lost.

It's weird being able to play a game that can be completed in an afternoon for once, because it's simultaneously refreshing to be able to do that and sorta disappointing that it wasn't as meaty as it could've been. Maybe this thing should've been an episodic series like Miyamoto hinted at. Maybe I'll have more in-depth thoughts later.

Also, the first-print steelbook case is amazing. No regrets.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Sounds like 1 in 4 people just can't get the controls(or don't try when holding ZR only) and everyone else is having a blast. Might be worth that 1 in 4 trying co-op though

[Nepenthe]

I'm someone who has about five minutes worth of experience with Star Fox 64 and hasn't really had to use the motion capabilities of the game pad extensively due to really only having Mario Kart 8 at my disposal, and I find this game pretty fantastic. There's a nice little synergy and strategy between piloting and shooting that happens when you've gotten the controls down pat, and dare I say it makes me feel more involved? Switching focuses between flying and aiming while continuing to balance these two things to keep your Arwing afloat, all underneath the stresses and chaos of space warfare is just an absolute blast. And I'm really glad that Nintendo and Platinum didn't skimp on the difficulty. The AI, especially with the bosses, is smart and accurate enough to always keep you on your toes, although those gold medal requirements are kind of ridiculous. What do I have to do; nuke the entire planet? All in all, it's a shame that the reviews have been so harsh on the controls, because it's turning people away from a really fun experience. Here's hoping that Nintendo won't take that to heart too much and just can the series for another ten years, because now I'm hooked.

[Conando]

It really works well for those certain boss fights where you can just circle around them while independently aiming to pick off a weak point that it's in a weird angle. It took me some getting used to, but I can't say the game would be better without them. It'd be worse. Still good, but not as good. As for gold medals through hits, charge shots add extra hits, so use those whenever you get a chance.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 4/23/2016 at 5:35 AM, JezMM said:

Ending/Last Boss Spoilers:

 

  Hide contents

The ENDING is lifted straight from 64 too which was just so unimaginitive.  I enjoyed the nice music on the black credits screen far more than the actual ending because at least they were new.  And the James McCloud ghost stuff isn't handled nearly as nicely and emotionally as it was in 64.  Finally I've heard there is no secret boss, which is really sucky because the final boss FELT like a pre-cursor to a "true" battle, especially what with it mostly being fought in Walker mode, and that tantalising moment where Andross turns around, exposing his weak-point, thinking maybe if you take a harder route, you'll be given the opportunity to do something about that.

 

Raise your hand if you geniunely did not expect this.

It should be noted that:

I've yet to play the game, I haven't even seen the cutscenes nor heard the dialogue. But I knew, as soon as we got more detail that this was basically a reboot (Andross being around

alone was enough for me to figure this out), that they would follow as much of the original 64 parts as they could with the ending. Like it was hard not to expect them do that for me.

So I can't say I'm surprised.

[JezMM]

It is worth noting, regarding the final boss:

 

 

It IS possible to shoot his weak spot at the end after all.  In fact the idea I had on how to do it turned out to be true, I just didn't do it at the right time.

For those who don't want to figure it out for themselves:

 

 

Apparently you can U-turn after James passes you by.  I did guess this on my last playthrough but I think I tried to do it too late.

 

A cool concept, though I admit a bit awkward since it does break the usual laws of gameplay due to not being an All-Range Mode section.

 

 

[Candescence]

Well, to be fair, it's an optional thing that gives you a medal for doing it. I sure as hell didn't realize you could do it until I found out, and when I tried it myself, I thought it was a pretty cool extra.

[Your Vest Friend]

Posting the video is hard for me to do right now, but Jim Sterling's latest Jimquisition was about SF0 and man, did he rip it a new one.

[PaddyFancy]

You can make a meme out of this. Hates SFZ's controls, loves Splatoon.

[JezMM]

My response to his video (commented there too but may as well share here);

I feel "is it more efficient and user friendly than pushing a button" is an interesting line of thought. I would argue Star Fox Zero's motion control aiming is not necessarily more friendly than 64's controls, but it is certainly more efficient. In 64, you cannot dodge and shoot at the same time in most cases, because to move away from a hazard involves moving where you are aiming too. In Zero, if you git gud you can do both in tandem, and it's pretty satisfying. Granted the learning curve is certainly significantly higher than Splatoon's sublime controls, but it can be argued the potential is greater.

Having said this, like Splatoon, I can't think of many situations in the game that utterly /require/ doing this to survive the stages (aside from the Gyrocopter I guess, you'd need to rethink the movement controls for that), so they could have left traditional controls in - just don't expect to beat the high scores of those using the advanced input options without a struggle.

Of course, my opinion here is based off the fact that I feel "is it more efficient OR user-friendly than pushing a button" is just as acceptable a condition.

[Nepenthe]

Getting passed the hyperbole and boxing in criticism as the expected response of irrational Nintendo fanboys, I don't really agree with Jim on the controls. They are non-standard and require a learning curve, but this isn't really a flaw. Dual analog wasn't always the standard and was indeed ridiculed as being unintuitive, but 20 years later people got over it and it's now the standard (at least for gamers; give someone who has never played a 3D game in their life Halo and see what happens). Peeps on NeoGAF also made the argument better than what I did in my impressions post: Basically, Star Fox allows you to do everything at the same time due to the inclusion of motion controls freeing up the tasks that your right thumb would have been responsible for. Had the game as it currently exists been dual analog, you simply would not be able to hit targets off screen or placed at weird angles while also controlling the maneuverability of the ship, because you would have to take your finger off of the right analog stick to press the buttons that allow for strafing and barrel rolling (and indeed, these functions are mapped to the face buttons and I use them constantly, but he didn't mention that that was a possibility). It would have absolutely necessitated an easier, less hectic, more bog-standard experience because you would automatically have less control of your vehicle, which I guess is something people would have taken just fine anyway, but then the argument of "this is just like 64" would have carried more weight anyway.

The Walker mode is honestly the most clunky of the four- even more than the Gyrowing (which is actually faster than I thought it would be going by impressions, and I was preparing myself to just hate the Gyrowing mission) because its strafing and turning capabilities are not high enough to really perform the kinds of quick-footed actions that you need to do in the cramped quarter areas it's designed to work in. In open areas such as the missile mission and on Venom, it works better, but it's the least "good feeling" of the four. However, Arwing controls absolutely shine. There's definitely an argument to be made for the added depth motion controls have given what is otherwise a generic rail shooter that I feel is unfortunately getting lost in the fact that reviewers are either unwilling or simply don't have the time to learn the intricacies of the game.

And this goes to my bigger point that, honestly, I don't feel like Nintendo innovates just to innovate, but rather because I think they like chasing after interesting or sensible ideas. Off-TV play and an added screen space to expand the visual context of any given game are inherently good ideas. Using a rectangular motion-control remote as a sword is an inherently good idea. This isn't an argument that the implementation of Nintendo's ideas has always been perfect; God knows I've played my share of garbage Wii games. But I don't think we should excuse these things as just shitty meaningless innovation because they've been imperfect or we're not used to them. At the very least, it makes Nintendo a fuckload more interesting than I feel they otherwise would be in a medium currently dominated by standardization to somewhat of a detriment.