Official Sonic 2006 topic

[DBZHedgy]

Because Silver's whole motive for going back in time was to stop Iblis from wrecking shit in his time. However, he's not bothered when Iblis is still around in his time when he returns, implying Sonic failed. He doesn't act surprised at all that nothing's changed, nor does he act bothered by the possibility that Sonic might have failed.

 

If '06 wanted to use DBZ's rule of changing time (i.e. changing the past doesn't affect your future, it only makes a new timeline), then it didn't do a good job of establishing that beforehand, did it?

 

Also, why didn't he go with Sonic to make sure he DOESN'T fail?

It is quite obvious to see why though. Silver was and is dedicated to stop iblis. He helped Sonic save Elise as a precaution, but he still had a backup plan. Sealing Iblis inside himself. Of course he wouldn't be worried when he got back. He had a failproof plan, but he didn't realize that Blaze would be sacrificed in the process. It's not that Sonic failed, it's just the fact that Elise is mortal and she would die eventually. His first concern was probably to make sure that Iblis wasn't released at that very moment. 

 

Because it didn't matter whether or not Sonic would fail or not. Silver had to make sure that he got back to the future to save it. The present is Sonic's concern and the Future is Silver's concern. Was it really that hard to grasp?

 

Better yet, why didn't they go back in time to before Eggman even attacked Soleanna in the first place!? There's no limit to indicate they couldn't have.

Because at it's core it didn't matter. Mephiles and Iblis would still run amok. Saving Elise would ruin Eggman's plan which would make Elise Sonic's main Focus. If they did just go back in time to stop eggman, than Iblis would still ruin the future and Mephiles would still have the capability to go back in time and ruin the timeline even further.

[Vertekins]

Hold on...

 

Iblis was released in the Crisis City timeline when Elise died on-board the Egg Carrier, proving that in that specific timeline, Sonic failed to rescue her and her death led to it's release. Tails even finds the news report inside the computer terminal attesting to it. It's implied that Sonic died some time in the 200 years between that incident and Silver's time. Which isn't surprising given he's, you know, not immortal.

 

This is one of the many factor's that prove that Mephiles is a complete dumbass because he could've killed Elise at any point in order to access Iblis.

[Spin Attaxx]

It is quite obvious to see why though. Silver was and is dedicated to stop iblis. He helped Sonic save Elise as a precaution, but he still had a backup plan. Sealing Iblis inside himself. Of course he wouldn't be worried when he got back. He had a failproof plan, but he didn't realize that Blaze would be sacrificed in the process. It's not that Sonic failed, it's just the fact that Elise is mortal and she would die eventually. His first concern was probably to make sure that Iblis wasn't released at that very moment.

So wait a minute, he doesn't mind that Iblis will get out of Elise when she dies (nor that nothing is done about this in the past)... but he doesn't mind that Iblis would get out of him when HE dies in 90-something years time, ergo repeating history?

 

And also, saving Elise was a "precaution"... despite the fact that, as Verte mentioned, Elise not being saved is what caused Iblis to get out in the first place?

 

That's... dumb.

 

Because it didn't matter whether or not Sonic would fail or not. Silver had to make sure that he got back to the future to save it. The present is Sonic's concern and the Future is Silver's concern. Was it really that hard to grasp?

So, hang on. Silver had to go to the future to save it... even though the present DIRECTLY AFFECTS THE FUTURE, and Iblis being dealt with in a way in the present that ensures the apocalypse never comes about at all somehow is a bad thing? Before you say "oh well if Iblis never came about then Silver never did anything so Iblis exists so...", bear in mind the ending has Solaris erased with zero grandfather paradoxes coming into effect.

 

Because at it's core it didn't matter. Mephiles and Iblis would still run amok. Saving Elise would ruin Eggman's plan which would make Elise Sonic's main Focus. If they did just go back in time to stop eggman, than Iblis would still ruin the future and Mephiles would still have the capability to go back in time and ruin the timeline even further.

OK, this is stupid.

 

Let's say history was changed so Eggman could never find out about Solaris (or at least couldn't obtain him). Mephiles was sealed in the Scepter of Darkness, which Eggman had. If Eggman never had the Scepter, he could never break it to release Mephiles, so Mephy couldn't do anything at all.

 

Also, if they just went back in time to kill Solaris (which they end up doing in the end anyway), then no Iblis, no ruined future.

[DBZHedgy]

Hold on...

 

Iblis was released in the Crisis City timeline when Elise died on-board the Egg Carrier, proving that in that specific timeline, Sonic failed to rescue her and her death led to it's release. Tails even finds the news report inside the computer terminal attesting to it. It's implied that Sonic died some time in the 200 years between that incident and Silver's time. Which isn't surprising given he's, you know, not immortal.

 

This is one of the many factor's that prove that Mephiles is a complete dumbass because he could've killed Elise at any point in order to access Iblis.

 

Either way, she died, and that in turn released Iblis. That much is a given.

 

Wait a second. So Mephiles is a dumbass because he likes destruction and chaos? If that's the case than Batman's Nemisis, The Joker, is just as dumb as him becuse all he wants is anarchy, chaos and disorganization. How is the Joker ecused for this yet it makes Mephiles a dumbass?

 

That's like saying "Why didn't eggman use the time eater to go back in time and kill Sonic". They're both just being overconfident and arrogant. How does that make them dumb? However in Eggman's case, he's an organized genius who wants to rule the world, instead of just causing destruction. What exactly does Mephiles have to lose? Nothing at all. What does Eggman have to lose? The place in which his glorious empire is to exist. But that doesn't apply to generations, because the place in which the game takes place doesn't add up at all....

[Spin Attaxx]

Wait a second. So Mephiles is a dumbass because he likes destruction and chaos? If that's the case than Batman's Nemisis, The Joker, is just as dumb as him becuse all he wants is anarchy, chaos and disorganization. How is the Joker ecused for this yet it makes Mephiles a dumbass?

 

That's like saying "Why didn't eggman use the time eater to go back in time and kill Sonic". They're both just being overconfident and arrogant. How does that make them dumb? However in Eggman's case, he's an organized genius who wants to rule the world, instead of just causing destruction. What exactly does Mephiles have to lose? Nothing at all. What does Eggman have to lose? The place in which his glorious empire is to exist. But that doesn't apply to generations, because the place in which the game takes place doesn't add up at all....

Let's put you into Mephiles's position:

 

You are one half of a God of Time. You seek to merge with your other half, sealed inside a puny human. Your other half can only get out if she cries, or dies. You can fire a laser beam of instant death. Your other half gets out of her in the future and rules it. You can time travel to any point at will. Do you:

 

A. Go straight to the future and merge with your other half there and then?

 

B. Go to the human holding your other half, get it out of her and merge with it there?

 

C. Go to where you first split and merge with your other half there?

 

D. Manipulate a psychic hedgehog fighting your other half in the future into killing a close friend of the human holding your other half so she cries and releases it, while trying to convince a black hedgehog in the present into becoming evil?

 

You'll notice D is more complex than A, B and C, so Mephiles had no excuse to take either of those options over D.

 

And that's why he's an idiot - instead of opening the door, he mines some ore, makes a key, opens every other door on the planet and finally opens his door after trying to turn a security guard into a bank robber, when he could just use the key he has in his coat pocket.

 

And as for your "oh, he's only in it for the chaos and lulz like the Joker"... no he's not. His ultimate goal is to merge with Iblis and become Solaris. The Joker has no ulterior motives. Chaos and lulz IS his goal. Mephiles does. Chaos and lulz are only a side effect of his goal.

[Scar]

Mephiles was a stupid fuck. No doubt about that. He was apparently perfectly capable of collecting chaos emeralds himself, for the fusion process, and he can murder people instantly. The central pillar of 06's plot is Mephiles' actions, and all of what he did was a massive waste of time, when he could have just set out and gotten what he wanted straight away, by himself.

Fucking idiot he was.

[DBZHedgy]

So wait a minute, he doesn't mind that Iblis will get out of Elise when she dies (nor that nothing is done about this in the past)... but he doesn't mind that Iblis would get out of him when HE dies in 90-something years time, ergo repeating history?

 

And also, saving Elise was a "precaution"... despite the fact that, as Verte mentioned, Elise not being saved is what caused Iblis to get out in the first place?

 

That's... dumb.

 

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So, hang on. Silver had to go to the future to save it... even though the present DIRECTLY AFFECTS THE FUTURE, and Iblis being dealt with in a way in the present that ensures the apocalypse never comes about at all somehow is a bad thing? Before you say "oh well if Iblis never came about then Silver never did anything so Iblis exists so...", bear in mind the ending has Solaris erased with zero grandfather paradoxes coming into effect.

 

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OK, this is stupid.

 

Let's say history was changed so Eggman could never find out about Solaris (or at least couldn't obtain him). Mephiles was sealed in the Scepter of Darkness, which Eggman had. If Eggman never had the Scepter, he could never break it to release Mephiles, so Mephy couldn't do anything at all.

 

Also, if they just went back in time to kill Solaris (which they end up doing in the end anyway), then no Iblis, no ruined future.

 

Apparently So. However, if the game is taking DBZ's approach on Time Travel, than that would mean that even if Sonic did save Elise Silver's future would still exist. And that future is the future in which Elise died. Changing history isn't going to affect his future because it, as well as him, already exist. It would just cause another timeline. And if it is the case in which Iblis is only released when you die than that isn't a problem unless Silver is killed. The story isn't perfect, but it does set itself up in a way to help you piece it together as i have. I am rather glad that they went into detail though instead of taking the easy way out and Not explaining anything like Sonic Colors, Generations and Lost World.

 

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That isn't proven. After Solaris is erased the only people we know who are intact are Sonic and Elise. Since Solaris never existed, Iblis was never sealed inside elise resulting in Eggman not pursuing her, which in turn gives sonic no reason to interface with her again. Since Mephiles didn't exist than Shadow would've never had to infiltrate Eggman's base to find rouge who went to get the sceptar of darkness. Since Iblis never existed and was never sealed inside Elise and the Eggman never captured her while crashing the Egg Carrier than Silver would never have to come back into the past to Stop Iblis from being released, or rather even if Iblis still existed, Mephiles wouldn't be able to bring Silver back to the present. It all loops. And it all makes sense.

 

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Since Mephiles is still in the sceptar however it is still the matter of a potential problem, and seeing as how he eventually overcomes the power of the sceptar the Same problems could've happened even if Eggman never found the sceptar.

Let's put you into Mephiles's position:

 

You are one half of a God of Time. You seek to merge with your other half, sealed inside a puny human. Your other half can only get out if she cries, or dies. You can fire a laser beam of instant death. Your other half gets out of her in the future and rules it. You can time travel to any point at will. Do you:

 

A. Go straight to the future and merge with your other half there and then?

 

B. Go to the human holding your other half, get it out of her and merge with it there?

 

C. Go to where you first split and merge with your other half there?

 

D. Manipulate a psychic hedgehog fighting your other half in the future into killing a close friend of the human holding your other half so she cries and releases it, while trying to convince a black hedgehog in the present into becoming evil?

 

You'll notice D is more complex than A, B and C, so Mephiles had no excuse to take either of those options over D.

 

And that's why he's an idiot - instead of opening the door, he mines some ore, makes a key, opens every other door on the planet and finally opens his door after trying to turn a security guard into a bank robber, when he could just use the key he has in his coat pocket.

 

And as for your "oh, he's only in it for the chaos and lulz like the Joker"... no he's not. His ultimate goal is to merge with Iblis and become Solaris. The Joker has no ulterior motives. Chaos and lulz IS his goal. Mephiles does. Chaos and lulz are only a side effect of his goal.

 

Yes, indeed. He does take the complicated way out, but you still neglect to answer my question.

Why doesn't Eggman just go back in time and Kill Sonic with the Time Eater instead of bating Sonic's friends? It's certainly more complex, and the way i mentioned earlier is alot easier than Such so why doesn't he do it? I'm not sure if your familiar with Sonic Generations' story, or it in general, but in it Eggman had the same brain fart that mephiles had, yet he isn't criticized for it?

 

Hypocritical, indeed. But as I said, you may not be familiar with the story, or you hate it just as much in that game as this.

 

Why wouldn't he do it for Chaos and Lulz? He never went into detail about why he did all of this crap. The only reason he killed Sonic was because he would 

A. Make Someone Suffer

B. Still fuse with his other half.

 

Not to mention he only does it after Silver and Sonic have become friends.

Seems like he's in it for Chaos and Lulz to me :/

[Spin Attaxx]

Apparently So. However, if the game is taking DBZ's approach on Time Travel, than that would mean that even if Sonic did save Elise Silver's future would still exist. And that future is the future in which Elise died. Changing history isn't going to affect his future because it, as well as him, already exist. It would just cause another timeline. And if it is the case in which Iblis is only released when you die than that isn't a problem unless Silver is killed. The story isn't perfect, but it does set itself up in a way to help you piece it together as i have. I am rather glad that they went into detail though instead of taking the easy way out and Not explaining anything like Sonic Colors, Generations and Lost World.

If DBZ's rules of time travel apply, then why wasn't the game more up-front about it instead of making Silver come off as an apathetic idiot who mucked around in the past for no reason at all?

 

That isn't proven. After Solaris is erased the only people we know who are intact are Sonic and Elise. Since Solaris never existed, Iblis was never sealed inside elise resulting in Eggman not pursuing her, which in turn gives sonic no reason to interface with her again. Since Mephiles didn't exist than Shadow would've never had to infiltrate Eggman's base to find rouge who went to get the sceptar of darkness. Since Iblis never existed and was never sealed inside Elise and the Eggman never captured her while crashing the Egg Carrier than Silver would never have to come back into the past to Stop Iblis from being released, or rather even if Iblis still existed, Mephiles wouldn't be able to bring Silver back to the present. It all loops. And it all makes sense.

By this logic, '06 is the final game in the Sonic series as the entire series from here on out is just one big loop. Seeing how Generations established that '06 is over and in the past, this logic, quite clearly, is bunk.

 

Since Mephiles is still in the sceptar however it is still the matter of a potential problem, and seeing as how he eventually overcomes the power of the sceptar the Same problems could've happened even if Eggman never found the sceptar.

He only breaks out of the scepter the second time because he's learned how not to get sealed into it after the first time. He only got out the first time due to a clumsy accident, not through his own power.

 

Also, if Mephiles getting out by some fool breaking the scepter is such a problem, then put the ruddy thing in a place where nobody would ever find it.

[DBZHedgy]

Mephiles was a stupid fuck. No doubt about that. He was apparently perfectly capable of collecting chaos emeralds himself, for the fusion process, and he can murder people instantly. The central pillar of 06's plot is Mephiles' actions, and all of what he did was a massive waste of time, when he could have just set out and gotten what he wanted straight away, by himself.

Fucking idiot he was.

 

Just like Eggman in Sonic Generations, but I still don't see anyone complaining about that...

 

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me :/

[DarkLight]

Generations has nothing to do with what you're trying to argue.

[Salamander]

...The rule that Iblis will get out if its host dies seems to make life hilariously easy for it, to the extent that Mephiles could've literally done nothing and sat around and waited for Elise to die of natural causes.  Not that there's much point in trying to redeem one tiny aspect of the game's plot, but I can't help myself: Is it not possible to just say that Elise couldn't help letting slip a tear while she was burning to death in a rocket ship crash?  Moreover, I'd also add a corollary that, if Iblis's host is killed, Iblis itself will die, thus absolutely necessitating the silly sentimental "make a little girl cry" plot point.

[Spin Attaxx]

Hypocritical, indeed. But as I said, you may not be familiar with the story, or you hate it just as much in that game as this.

 

Why wouldn't he do it for Chaos and Lulz? He never went into detail about why he did all of this crap. The only reason he killed Sonic was because he would 

A. Make Someone Suffer

B. Still fuse with his other half.

 

Not to mention he only does it after Silver and Sonic have become friends.

Seems like he's in it for Chaos and Lulz to me :/

Eggman's an egomaniac. I'd say it's well established he'd rather humilate Sonic, gloat about it and then kill him rather than out and out killing him. Hell, it's been shown since Sonic 2 on the Master System! Mephiles isn't said to be doing the whole thing for his amusement, not by his own admission, nor anyone else's, so he comes off like a moron with a complexity addiction.

[DBZHedgy]

If DBZ's rules of time travel apply, then why wasn't the game more up-front about it instead of making Silver come off as an apathetic idiot who mucked around in the past for no reason at all?

 

By this logic, '06 is the final game in the Sonic series as the entire series from here on out is just one big loop. Seeing how Generations established that '06 is over and in the past, this logic, quite clearly, is bunk.

 

He only breaks out of the scepter the second time because he's learned how not to get sealed into it after the first time. He only got out the first time due to a clumsy accident, not through his own power.

 

Also, if Mephiles getting out by some fool breaking the scepter is such a problem, then put the ruddy thing in a place where nobody would ever find it.

 

Why does the game have to be upfront about it? The story progresses as such either way, so at it's core it doesn't matter. Every game with Time travel has it's own rules and such, and 06 does it rather well once you think about it. I dunno if it's just be, but it seems pretty easy to understand.

 

That's Generations' fault for re-establishing the game even though it never happened. Not 06's fault.

 

Actually he never said that, and the game never tells you that. All he says is "The 'I' of now absorbed power from you Shadow in the Past, what worked 10 years ago no longer does."

Just because it was dropped doesn't mean anything at all, he is still able to overcome the power of the sceptar and that's what matters.

 

Ok, but who would live long enough to keep it safe for so long? Would they eventually pass down a line of people who would protect it as knuckles did and eventually break again?

 

Also, Mephiles needed the Chaos Emeralds in order to fuse with Iblis and even Shadow says in the final confrontation,"All you crave is destruction" further proving my point.

[Spin Attaxx]

Why does the game have to be upfront about it? The story progresses as such either way, so at it's core it doesn't matter. Every game with Time travel has it's own rules and such, and 06 does it rather well once you think about it. I dunno if it's just be, but it seems pretty easy to understand.

...if it's going to go by it's own time travel rules, then it bloody well has to be upfront about it. If you don't establish how shit works in your story, you're going to run into stupid plotholes like this.

 

Actually he never said that, and the game never tells you that. All he says is "The 'I' of now absorbed power from you Shadow in the Past, what worked 10 years ago no longer does."

Just because it was dropped doesn't mean anything at all, he is still able to overcome the power of the sceptar and that's what matters.

...yes, it getting dropped means anything at all. IT'S HOW HE GOT OUT AT ALL. He didn't get out of the scepter the first time by "overcoming" its power, he only got out 'cause it was dropped by an outside source. And you accuse me of being unfamiliar with the story...

 

Ok, but who would live long enough to keep it safe for so long? Would they eventually pass down a line of people who would protect it as knuckles did and eventually break again?

If they have to, yeah. If all else fails, then Chaos Control the thing to the half of the moon that DOESN'T get blown up.

 

Also, Mephiles needed the Chaos Emeralds in order to fuse with Iblis and even Shadow says in the final confrontation,"All you crave is destruction" further proving my point.

Oh, you mean those Emeralds that he literally just warps straight to him in the end? So he didn't need to go around collecting them at all?

 

Also, did it ever cross that your mind that Shadow meant that Mephiles craves destruction as Solaris?

[DBZHedgy]

...if it's going to go by it's own time travel rules, then it bloody well has to be upfront about it. If you don't establish how shit works in your story, you're going to run into stupid plotholes like this.

 

...yes, it getting dropped means anything at all. IT'S HOW HE GOT OUT AT ALL. He didn't get out of the scepter the first time by "overcoming" its power, he only got out 'cause it was dropped by an outside source. And you accuse me of being unfamiliar with the story...

 

If they have to, yeah. If all else fails, then Chaos Control the thing to the half of the moon that DOESN'T get blown up.

 

Oh, you mean those Emeralds that he literally just warps straight to him in the end? So he didn't need to go around collecting them at all?

 

Also, did it ever cross that your mind that Shadow meant that Mephiles craves destruction as Solaris?

This isn't the only story in which Time travel Manipulation isn't explained properly. They rarely even discuss it in generations, much less explain it do they?

 

Ah, I see your point. However, it being broken could still cause just as much destruction as prior to the accident were it not for shadow stopping him. Either way, it all comes down to the same thing so this is just a minor detail that's ignored.

 

They didn't do that with the Master Emerald, something that's continued to be neglected and Chaos coming from it was eventually released as well. Eggman's lust for power is what caused the discovery of the Scepter just as such the Master Emerald with Chaos inside. I'm still confused as to how such things can be excused for earlier or later games, yet this game always has to be nitpicked to death. It's pretty idiotic, which is what causes me to defend it so much.

 

Yes, after collecting them that is, but again. The chaos emeralds have to be present. Whereas the Future doesn't have any emeralds at all. What would he suck the life from in the future if there was barely anyone? It would make more sense that he would want to suck the life from a livelier time. That's like saying "Why doesn't Eggman just rule the Moon?" Or "Why doesn't the Joker just cause havoc on Mars?"

 

When is this specified? Yes, he does eventually seek to become Solaris and Cause Destruction, but he still causes this Havoc while he isn't. He tries to turn Shadow to the "dark side" even though he seeks to be Solaris. That again PROVES my reasoning.

Eggman's an egomaniac. I'd say it's well established he'd rather humilate Sonic, gloat about it and then kill him rather than out and out killing him. Hell, it's been shown since Sonic 2 on the Master System! Mephiles isn't said to be doing the whole thing for his amusement, not by his own admission, nor anyone else's, so he comes off like a moron with a complexity addiction.

It doesn't matter whether or not Eggman's an egomaniac. It makes him just as Stupid as Mephiles, but some people refuse to see that. If he REALLY wanted his goals to succeed like in Sonic Adventure 2, than that wouldn't be a problem. But it is, and that's because of his ignorance. However, since Eggman doesn't want destruction and wants to rule the world he uses intricate planning to defeat Sonic and in Sonic Adventure 2 he almost won because of how cunnning he was. This simple fact is what keeps Sonic Adventure 2 as being my most prefered Eggman impression in a video game to this day.

[Spin Attaxx]

This isn't the only story in which Time travel Manipulation isn't explained properly. They rarely even discuss it in generations, much less explain it do they?

"Oh other time travel stories didn't explain their rules so this is alright"

 

...this is stupid reasoning. Just because other stories don't explain their time travel rules either doesn't excuse this from doing the same. It's being lazy, plain and simple.

 

They didn't do that with the Master Emerald, something that's continued to be neglected and Chaos coming from it was eventually released as well. Eggman's lust for power is what caused the discovery of the Scepter just as such the Master Emerald with Chaos inside. I'm still confused as to how such things can be excused for earlier or later games, yet this game always has to be nitpicked to death. It's pretty idiotic, which is what causes me to defend it so much.

...you are aware that the breaking of the Master Emerald was fully intentional on his part, right? And that Chaos basically dies after Adventure, hence why it breaking in SA2 didn't cause him to come back? Also, the M.E. is actually guarded by someone, while, we're lead to assume the scepter just lay around until Eggman found it.

 

Yes, after collecting them that is, but again. The chaos emeralds have to be present. Whereas the Future doesn't have any emeralds at all. What would he suck the life from in the future if there was barely anyone? It would make more sense that he would want to suck the life from a livelier time. That's like saying "Why doesn't Eggman just rule the Moon?" Or "Why doesn't the Joker just cause havoc on Mars?"

OK, then explain the blue emerald, which he never got. And the red emerald that appears from fucking nowhere after being absent from the game at this point.

 

Also, where are you getting this "there are no emeralds in the future" claptrap? There's almost nothing to suggest that ingame, fire demon or not. If the Chaos Emeralds (while depleted of their power, mind you) can survive a fall from space, I think they can survive a couple of lava baths.

 

Also, he's meant to absorb Iblis, not life from the future. So what's stopping him from going to the future, summoning the emeralds there and merging with Iblis OR getting the emeralds in the present, time travelling to the future, and merging with Iblis there?

 

When is this specified? Yes, he does eventually seek to become Solaris and Cause Destruction, but he still causes this Havoc while he isn't. He tries to turn Shadow to the "dark side" even though he seeks to be Solaris. That again PROVES my reasoning.

What is the point of bumbling around and causing "havok" while he's in a falliable form if he's going to just do it anyway as a nigh-omnipotent god? He has SO MANY OPTIONS availiable to him to attain his goal of becoming Solaris, and he chooses to take the most needlessly complex!

 

It doesn't matter whether or not Eggman's an egomaniac. It makes him just as Stupid as Mephiles, but some people refuse to see that. If he REALLY wanted his goals to succeed like in Sonic Adventure 2, than that wouldn't be a problem. But it is, and that's because of his ignorance. However, since Eggman doesn't want destruction and wants to rule the world he uses intricate planning to defeat Sonic and in Sonic Adventure 2 he almost won because of how cunnning he was. This simple fact is what keeps Sonic Adventure 2 as being my most prefered Eggman impression in a video game to this day.

*sigh*... how do I put this...

 

Mephiles's complexity addiction makes no sense and was most clearly NOT an intended flaw, unlike Eggman's hubris. Again, he has SO MANY SIMPLE WAYS to fufill his goal, and he happens to choose the most complex, long-winded way to do so? All the while the story claims he's "devious" and "manpulative"? While he has numerous, less complicated ways to get what he wants WITHOUT having to go through all the long-winded shit he does?

 

That's not being "clever" or "devious", it's being flat out stupid.

[Gabz Girl]

It's very ironic how they wipe out the entire plot at the end of Sonic 06. It feels like it was intentional, yet it's obvious this was the planned ending since the very beginning. Either way, it sucks.

And yes, despite how badass Mephiles is he is also a dumbass. One thing I also don't understand is if he could kill Sonic himself all along at ANY point in the game when Sonic was with Elise...then why the hell did he first ask Silver to do it for him? What, did he just randomly change his mind halfway through after they began to help each other? Cos it sure seems like it!

Honestly, I don't think anything in Sonic 06 makes sense and it has probably the worst time travel story of any game ever.

[DBZHedgy]

"Oh other time travel stories didn't explain their rules so this is alright"

 

...this is stupid reasoning. Just because other stories don't explain their time travel rules either doesn't excuse this from doing the same. It's being lazy, plain and simple.

 

...you are aware that the breaking of the Master Emerald was fully intentional on his part, right? And that Chaos basically dies after Adventure, hence why it breaking in SA2 didn't cause him to come back? Also, the M.E. is actually guarded by someone, while, we're lead to assume the scepter just lay around until Eggman found it.

 

OK, then explain the blue emerald, which he never got. And the red emerald that appears from fucking nowhere after being absent from the game at this point.

 

Also, where are you getting this "there are no emeralds in the future" claptrap? There's almost nothing to suggest that ingame, fire demon or not. If the Chaos Emeralds (while depleted of their power, mind you) can survive a fall from space, I think they can survive a couple of lava baths.

 

Also, he's meant to absorb Iblis, not life from the future. So what's stopping him from going to the future, summoning the emeralds there and merging with Iblis OR getting the emeralds in the present, time travelling to the future, and merging with Iblis there?

 

What is the point of bumbling around and causing "havok" while he's in a falliable form if he's going to just do it anyway as a nigh-omnipotent god? He has SO MANY OPTIONS availiable to him to attain his goal of becoming Solaris, and he chooses to take the most needlessly complex!

 

*sigh*... how do I put this...

 

Mephiles's complexity addiction makes no sense and was most clearly NOT an intended flaw, unlike Eggman's hubris. Again, he has SO MANY SIMPLE WAYS to fufill his goal, and he happens to choose the most complex, long-winded way to do so? All the while the story claims he's "devious" and "manpulative"? While he has numerous, less complicated ways to get what he wants WITHOUT having to go through all the long-winded shit he does?

 

That's not being "clever" or "devious", it's being flat out stupid.

 

I didn't say it's alright. I said that neither should be excused for it. Yet it so happens that a game that is almost universally hated gets to be picked on for it. THAT is stupid, as well as hypocritical.

 

Yes, and that's because of the research he had done on the Emerald and it's history. The same with Dark Gaia. After further investigation I'm sure that Eggman would've released him purposfully. What else would he use it for? A centerpiece?

Yes, it is guarded, but it was easily found by Doctor Eggman seeing as how he already knew where it was from Sonic 3K.

 

Clearly it's another emerald that had no need being in the story, yet still existed. And again, if he wasn't able to fuse with Iblis SOMETHING had to be preventing him from doing so. I don't recall Silver knowing anything about the chaos emeralds, implying that the future in which he resides is void of chaos emeralds, hence Mephiles' need to go back in time. 

 

I would assume that since the emeralds are there he summoned them there instead of going to the trouble of going right back to the future to fuse with iblis.

 

It was probably added for more complexity of the story. And for good reason too. Again, he's an anarchist, he craves destruction. I already quoted shadow saying this. What more do I have to do to get you to see how simple this is? Many Villains of his kind want mindless destruction whether or not it makes sense. It's all just his character Choices, and he may be arrogant and/or overconfident, but isn't that what all villians do to get defeated? I'd say he did a good job since he actually succeeded, unlike many other villains. Even if it was for a short moment.

 

Yes, this is true, however Eggman's hubris isn't exclusive to being Arrogant. In earlier games he was Cunning and he SUCCEEDED with his plans because he wasn't arrogant and/or egotistic. If anything it's just out of character since he didn't act like this earlier. He always succeeded, and Sonic always overpowered him. Remember Sonic 3K? Sonic beat him AFTER he had taken the master emerald and used it for his machine. Remember Sonic CD? Sonic beat him AFTER he had enslaved the planet, but was able to use the time stones to return to said time. Remember Sonic ADventure? Chaos got all the emeralds, but Chaos had betrayed him. Remember Sonic Adventure 2? He succesfully collected all the chaos emeralds and was ready to fire the eclispse cannon, but his grandfather's machine had used it for a different purpose. Heroes and Shadow don't revolve around eggman... Remember Sonic Unleashed? He succesfully reawakened Dark Gaia, but he was betrayed. Everygame after Colors, he continuosly made these STUPID decisisions which allowed Eggman to fail. Sonic Colors - Leaving his base open to EVERYONE Sonic Generations - Using the Time Eater to erase his defeats, instead of erasing Sonic. Sonic Lost World - He LED sonic to his base of Operations, and he TOLD eggman how to shut down his machine even though he had a fail proof plan. When has Eggman does this before Colors (A Game written by people who doesn't even know Sonic's chronology), I don't think it's fair to consider those if that's the case.

 

If Mephiles wants to screw with people in the process, so be it, at least he SUCCEEDED while doing it. And BTW if it was so stupid, than why did he succeed? It all would've come down to the same conclusion of him being defeated, so why is it considered dumb. Maybe he wanted to have a little fun before he completely consumed Time. It would make sense, I'm sure it's pretty boring sitting in a void of timeless space.

[DocAzure]

I don't know what it is, but I've got a feeling this argument is going in circles, and nothing is going to come of it. The story of 06 is massively flawed, that's the truth. You can't see it any other way, like, I don't see where opinion comes into this. It's like arguing about the existence of glitches, which really shouldn't be there to begin with to be honest, like this awful bunch of 'plot' threads stuck together.

[DBZHedgy]

It's very ironic how they wipe out the entire plot at the end of Sonic 06. It feels like it was intentional, yet it's obvious this was the planned ending since the very beginning. Either way, it sucks.

And yes, despite how badass Mephiles is he is also a dumbass. One thing I also don't understand is if he could kill Sonic himself all along at ANY point in the game when Sonic was with Elise...then why the hell did he first ask Silver to do it for him? What, did he just randomly change his mind halfway through after they began to help each other? Cos it sure seems like it!

Honestly, I don't think anything in Sonic 06 makes sense and it has probably the worst time travel story of any game ever.

 

It isn't Ironic at all, but this is my opinion.

 

So is Eggman, so your insulting both at the same time, well the Eggman as of recent anyway.

 

Oh yea, Did you know that Mephiles and Iblis + Solaris are based on the Devil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Df2Ilpxtdg‎

This would also explain why Mephiles would rather screw with people than to just do it the easy way. 

I don't know what it is, but I've got a feeling this argument is going in circles, and nothing is going to come of it. The story of 06 is massively flawed, that's the truth. You can't see it any other way, like, I don't see where opinion comes into this. It's like arguing about the existence of glitches, which really shouldn't be there to begin with to be honest, like this awful bunch of 'plot' threads stuck together.

 

That isn't the Truth, it's opinion, and I respect yours even if you don't explain why :3

 

You can argue about the existence of glitches but it wouldn't make sense, arguing, or rahter debating about the story is different because it's what we the players take from it. It's like reading the Bible. Most people usually take a certain perspective when few misunderstand it completely.

 

I still don't think the glitches are as bad as everyone says though. I can think of 25 games with even worse glitches though.

 

The only thing I cannot forgive this game for is the $60 price on initial release and the Loading times. I do however like how they add a map to most loading screens so you can figure out where to go with the little red and blue marks on the map. That was a good way to counter the loading times. Either way. The time span in which the loading screens take place are between 7 seconds and 30 seconds. Mine was around 10 Seconds so I guess I could be more lenient with it though.

[Spin Attaxx]

I was going to argue your point, but Azure made it clear - this whole thing is you saying "'06's story isn't shit!" and me saying "yes it is, and here's why" over and over and over. Like the story all you want, just know that what you're defending is a piece of shit written by writers who didn't know what they were doing and put no thought into it whatsoever.

 

But let me address something:

 

Clearly it's another emerald that had no need being in the story, yet still existed. And again, if he wasn't able to fuse with Iblis SOMETHING had to be preventing him from doing so. I don't recall Silver knowing anything about the chaos emeralds, implying that the future in which he resides is void of chaos emeralds, hence Mephiles' need to go back in time.

Are you implying there are more than seven emeralds? Even thought it's well established that there's only seven in existance?

 

And if something prevented Mephiles from taking the easy way out, THE GAME NEVER TELLS US. Hence, we are forced to assume that there is NOTHING stopping him from doing so. Hence, we are forced to assume Mephiles is an idiot.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Don't even get me started on the idiocy of Mephiles.......but expect a bigger post on him coming up soon enough.

[KHCast]

I thought Eggman was always looked at in a goofy way one way or another by everyone, hence why people were more lenient on his actions.

 

Mephiles however, was made out to be this "all knowing, super cunning, smart, super threatening" baddy. The game expects you to take him seriously unlike Eggman. So when his logic is this complicated and makes the player always go "what, why didn't he just, wtf?!", I think it's fair for people to see him as a joke.

[DBZHedgy]

I was going to argue your point, but Azure made it clear - this whole thing is you saying "'06's story isn't shit!" and me saying "yes it is, and here's why" over and over and over. Like the story all you want, just know that what you're defending is a piece of shit written by writers who didn't know what they were doing and put no thought into it whatsoever.

 

But let me address something:

 

Are you implying there are more than seven emeralds? Even thought it's well established that there's only seven in existance?

 

And if something prevented Mephiles from taking the easy way out, THE GAME NEVER TELLS US. Hence, we are forced to assume that there is NOTHING stopping him from doing so. Hence, we are forced to assume Mephiles is an idiot.

 

Isn't that the point of debates or rather discussions? Sure, stop, your only helping my points look superior but not showing how they are stupid as you said. But that's just me.

Actually it's more like me saying "06 isn't Shit, and here's why" with you saying "Yes it is because of this" and me saying "No it isn't because this means this". 

 

Saying it's a piece of Shit doesn't make it true, it makes it your opinion. And opinions are the exact opposite of fact. Therefore people should be able to defend it especially if they have valid points.

 

"written by writers who didn't know what they were doing and put no thought into it whatsoever."

You know what's ironic about that statement? This game was written by the same people who wrote Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes. 2 games that were adored for their story.

 

 

 

 

No I'm not implying there are more than 7 chaos emeralds. You stated that there were 2 chaos emeralds that weren't introduced into the plot whatsoever, and I retorted that there was no need for them to be there except to be consistent with past events because there are Seven Chaos Emeralds.

 

You aren't FORCED to assume he's an idiot. You just presume he is because you lack proper evidence saying he is, but if evidence were introduced it could in turn make him either more stupid or even smarter than before. It works in both ways, most people generally associate this game with everything bad because they couldn't see what was truly good about the game. I however can which makes it less likely to do so.

That's like Saying Gun is stupid for killing Maria when they could've had a valid reason for doing so.

Don't even get me started on the idiocy of Mephiles.......but expect a bigger post on him coming up soon enough.

Can't wait.

I thought Eggman was always looked at in a goofy way one way or another by everyone, hence why people were more lenient on his actions.

 

Mephiles however, was made out to be this "all knowing, super cunning, smart, super threatening" baddy. The game expects you to take him seriously unlike Eggman. So when his logic is this complicated and makes the player always go "what, why didn't he just, wtf?!", I think it's fair for people to see him as a joke.

 

Right Totally, because in Sonic Adventure 2, he was SOOO Goofy how he blew up the moon, and threatened to Shoot Amy's head clean off. Yep, that't totally goofy, no denying that...

Or rather, enslaving a planet - Sonic CD

Or Maybe, Destroying an entire city with a water monster to build his city on top of - Sonic Adventure

Or perhaps, Attempting to destroy an entire country just to get one princess - Sonic 06

Probably even, Destroying a planet to get a demon to come out and destroy everything - Sonic Unleashed

 

Yep Totally Goofy, I'm sorry I doubted you. You have my sincerest Apologies.

[Scar]

Just like Eggman in Sonic Generations, but I still don't see anyone complaining about that...

Eggman doing in Generations doesn't make it acceptable in '06.

Besides, Mephiles being a moron, isn't the only problem with the story. There is a lot wrong with this game's story. People (including myself) have written about these flaws at length, over the years.

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me :/

Please do point out this hypocrisy. As far as I can see Generations gets a lot of shit for its paper-thin plot.