Official Sonic 2006 topic

[Diogenes]

And to be quite frank, the last time I checked 06 didn't have any glitches that locked your controller until you soft reseted, 06 didn't have glitches that could cause epilepsy and physically and mentally harm someone, and 06 didn't have glitches in which could crash your game entirely. As many times as I've seen glitch videos of 06 those 3 very dangerous glitches do not appear AT ALL. So tell me again, how exactly does 06 have a greater quantity of Flaw X than game Y? (Sonic Lost World)

The difference is a matter of density.

Some games have a bug that is worse than any known bug in '06. However, bugs of that sort are likely to be tightly contained. They most likely only crop up under very specific circumstances, in very limited areas of the game, often requiring specific and/or unintuitive actions. You can likely play the vast majority of the game, or even the entirety of it, without running into any notable glitches. Even a game with a severe bug can be enjoyable and worthwhile when that bug does not take effect. This doesn't excuse the glitch, mind; it's still a flaw in the game, but its specificity limits its effect on the game.

'06, on the other hand, is impossible to play without being hassled by poor programming. Almost every aspect of the gameplay is broken, awkward, or finicky in some way. It is terrible from the second you gain control to the second you throw the controller through the window in frustration. There is no point at which the game works properly.

At any rate, no amount of pointing at other games means '06 is any less shitty anyway. Other games may be glitchy. Other games may be terrible. Some of them may even be worse than '06. But '06 is still indefensibly shitty. And even if we were all hypocrites in attacking '06 but not other games, all that would mean is that other games deserve to be attacked as well, along with attacking '06.

[Milo]

How do you know that? There is a thing called unused media, many of the concepts in Sonic 06 could have been replaced by different concepts that all around work differently. It happens all the time with video games, and it isn't to say that Sonic games haven't gone through these changes either. You can't just say that it will because it's unfinished. There were still many things that they intended to implement which couldve made the design choice so much better. 

 

The Story could've also gone through a redux as well, you make it seem like everything that is in an unfinished game or beta version ALWAYS makes it into the final product, this is not true in MANY circumstances.

 

Except that SoniTH was specifically talking about if the game was finished, not if the game had more development time or some other situation that would had allowed changes to gameplay concepts. I was responding to his answer under the mentality that he was speaking that the game would had been better had the game mechanics as they were were completely implemented into the game without any glitches or bugs whatsoever.

 

Also, even if they were going to implement X (for the sake of simple analogies, I'm using letters here) that could had made Y "better," it depends on objectively "how" much better it would made X better in terms of concept and execution as well as the significance of "X's" implementation to "Y" when you compare to things of varied importance. It doesn't mean much to successfully fix problem Y with implementation X if problems S, T, U, V, W, and Z, aren't fixed or were unsuccessfully "fixed". Using this logic along with the knowledge I know about the game itself (specifically it's development, the concepts that made it in the game, and how they were executed and were received by people who have encountered them during the game), I can make judgements on whether these concepts would had greatly benefited the game or not.

 

As for the story, it only would had gone through a "redux" / revision under the pretense that Sonic Team and/or Sega didn't think the story was good (enough) and decided to make changes. Which was clearly not the case.

 

And I have no idea where you're getting these claims that I'm supposedly insinuating that everything proposed in development makes it into the final game, which was completely unrelated to the point I was arguing.

 

EDIT: Used wrong name.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Space☆Gabe

[DBZHedgy]

 

You know what? Screw it.

 

 

At some point in time I had to consider if the debate was even worth the stress. Because at the end of the day, even if I somehow managed to get you to see the light, it really wouldn't matter that much to me on a personal level anyway. Besides, there are many other members who are willing to discuss why Sonic 06 is a terrible game with you. You really don't need me to add resistance to your one man army.

 

I've been on the forums for several years and I've seen it all. I've been in this topic and other Sonic 06 topics for the past 8 years I've been a member. I used to white knight the game myself before I finally got my hands on it. Never before have I had to swallow more pride in one weekend than the weekend I played and completed Sonic 06. I've been through it all. I've sent my emails to SEGA's reps asking them to patch the game. I've entered debates trying to defend the game for what it was. I've done everything I could to try and justify the game's worth, only to realize that I had self-imposed the game's worth based on infantile reasoning. There is absolutely no defending this game, and I had to learn it like everyone else did. I didn't even want to hate 06, and yet I find myself loathing it more and more I realize how soulless it is, glitchy, poorly designed, terribly written and everything else I'm sure you've heard before.

 

One SSMB server wipe later and I've made it a mission to try and figure out how anybody can look at this game and say that it's objectively good. Every topic, every member, every instance of discussion, every worthwhile thought that had been put into discussing this game has always left me unsatisfied. I can see why some people like it, but I still cannot find why anyone can deny that the game is terribly flawed. Not just that it has flaws, but that those flaws don't mean anything. I've even met people who completely deny the game is even glitchy. 

 

And now you show up and want me to prove it to you? You want me to spend my time to do what I've done before, over and over again, just so we can satisfy your desire to look like some revolutionary who will change the world by proving to all of us pseudo-Sonic fans that Sonic 06 is not as bad as we think it is? You want me to play your game? No. I'm done. In fact, I'm disappointed. I'm bored.

 

But above all else, SSMB is done. Do you know how done we are?

 

I repeat: do you know how DONE we are?!

 

Sonic 2006 discussion is banned outside of this topic. 

That's right. We've had so many topics, so many repeats, so many do-overs, so many white knighters and so many pointless debates that we collectively said ENOUGH. There is nothing good that can come out of this needlessly endless "debate."

 

We have this lone topic open so we can discuss Sonic 2006 objectively, so we can consolidate all information regarding the game in order to prevent it from poisoning the rest of the forums that aren't living 8 years in the past. This topic could be something much better. We could be discussing things left on the cutting room floor. We could be learning and exchanging our individual understanding of how this game is an industry-level example of what not to do when making a game. Sonic 06 is, in fact, a legendary game. It's one of the greats. It deserves it's pedestal up there with Superman 64, ET for the Atari 2600, Bomberman Act Zero, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, Golden Axe Beast Rider, and so on and so forth.

 

But we can never even get to this point because all people want to do is try to explain away everything about this game as not that bad.

 

So you know? I'm just done. I'm done holding out for an intelligent and thoughtful discussion of how this piece of software has impacted and will continue to impact interactive media. I've come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth it anymore.

 

I am in no way obligated to continue playing along with your shenanigans, because no matter how many times you desperately try to convince others, I can live with the peace of knowing that I won't be spending the better part of my Saturday discussing the inner mechanisms of what makes Sonic 2006 garbage to begin with. I have a life, and I won't be spending it debating you. 

This debate has in fact taught me a lot, though. It taught me that the fanbase isn't a singular hive-mind. It taught me that even when you think you've seen it all, there's always going to be something new to blindside you and totally leave you with your jaw dropping. It brought me back to studying Sonic 06 only to find that it's even worse than what I thought it was. It taught me to laugh at the low points of the franchise instead of cringe at it. And finally, it taught me to not take any Sonic 06 debate seriously.

 

So thanks for that. I'll be sure to use this knowledge in the future. Maybe I'll write a large expose on the many problems with 06. But not anytime soon. I'm burnt out.

 

"You really don't need me to add resistance to your one man army."

That's just what I want though, more people to counter my statements = a higher chance of being proved wrong. If I am as wrong as many people have claimed me to be, than all I would really have to say is "Stop Liking a game I don't like" or "I don't care what you say". It's in fact the inverse of such, I am giving logical statements that counter the statements being brought up to me.

If I were as childish or blinded as you and many others have stated than I would've been doing the prior much much longer ago, but ironically enough, as wrong as I am, many of my statements and logical reasonings still go unanswered.

 

I'm quite happy that your done in fact. You didn't really add anything that I haven't seen before, you merely repeated several things that many other people have said, brought up something that was easily countered, liked every post that directly go against my own, and still act like your superior because you don't like the game. Do you know how shallow that is? 

 

The only reason 06 topics are banned outside of all else is because of how often many other people talk about it. And That's directly because of how indiscriminate many sonic fans make the people of 06 look, you are a prime example. You act like your so much better just because you hate the game, and in reality, nearly all of the things you've said that I countered don't even amount to anything but Silence on your own part, and it can't be due to you now being present, because you like almost every single conjecture that is aimed at showing the faults of the game. We get it, you don't like it. I'm quite sure you've made that clear, I'm quite surprised in fact that you haven't left sooner.

 

"It deserves it's pedestal up there with Superman 64, ET for the Atari 2600, Bomberman Act Zero, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, Golden Axe Beast Rider"

You are sadly mistaken, Sonic 06 is an incomplete game, and a game that had far more ambition that any of these titles. This game is only a trainwreck because it was incomplete, that is the sole reason the game had such a backlash. 

The rest of the games on the list had ample development time AND they still turned out horrible. These games were no where near as hyped as 06 was. That's another reason 06 is regarded as terrible. It was a DISAPPOINTMENT. The trailers and the previews promised so much and because of a series of unfortunate events, the game fell flat, unfortunately. Sega practically promised that this game would be the game to top all, and seeing it fall from it's grace is a very sad thing to see. 

THERE WERE LITTLE TO NO FANS OUT THERE THAT DIDN'T WANT THIS GAME WHEN THE PREVIEWS AND DEMOS CAME OUT.

Not to mention the game implemented features that future games improved on, and used. That both shows that it wasn't as terrible as many people would think and that 06 didn't do everything except the music wrong. It's an exaggeration.

 

"But we can never even get to this point because all people want to do is try to explain away everything about this game as not that bad."

The only reason this is, is because everyone else can't go five minutes without giving their life story about why they hate 06, so many people are constantly oppressing those who enjoy the game and it's so irritating. I'm sure none of the fans of 06 would act this way if our opinions would be respected in a manner that didn't directly state that their wrong for liking a game with all of their perceptions of it intact. It almost as if people are forcing everyone else to say that 06 cannot be loved even though were supposed to be entitled to our own opinions. Saying things like, with all of that, you can't honestly tell me that the game is actually enjoyable and things along these lines, and no matter how many times people say to stop being condescending, someone who hates the game always seems to slip through cracks of this... 

[Blacklightning]

Crap Design...? The Generations 06 porting project would like to have a word with you.

The actual fuck does that even have to do with '06 itself? Or even Sega itself? That is a fan project.

You want to know why I've refocused this conversation? This is exactly why. Because you're more focused on shifting blame towards completely unrelated media than you are clearing '06 of any actual wrongdoing. And don't give me that bullshit about "oh but I know it's not perfect" or "I just want people to hate it for the right reasons" again; you've yet to acknowledge a single actual fuckup on '06's part, in a sea of fuckups that are absolutely inexcusable together, even if tolerable seperately.

 

I'm not complaining that it's nitpicking because someone didn't pick out every problem in 06, but in every other game as well. Again, it's done because Sonic 06 is almost exclusively hated, and it is nitpcking.

Again I reiterate, it's because of people like you that this impression is set. '06 flaws were without dispute before white knights like yourself, but when people insist against the status of a game which is literally legendary in its awfulness, people retort. This is what you asked for. You brought this on yourself. You have literally no right to bitch when it turns out to be too much to bear.

 

And no, analysing a shit game over games that are less shit isn't nitpicking.

 

I've stated several times that I want to know why it's hated coupled with the statements that I have brought up.

My pointless nitpicking?

Game, set and match.

Sorry, you don't get to cherry-pick which arguments get to apply and which don't, because among other stupid shit, I'm sick of entertaining your confirmation bias. If you expect to come to the defence of a game this bad, you have to accept the notion that you don't make the rules. Accept the notion that you're not going to be playing on your home field, Accept the notion that you're going to talk about stuff you don't want to, and a whole fucking lot of it.

 

No, I haven't. 

And to be quite frank, the last time I checked 06 didn't have any glitches that locked your controller until you soft reseted, 06 didn't have glitches that could cause epilepsy and physically and mentally harm someone, and 06 didn't have glitches in which could crash your game entirely. As many times as I've seen glitch videos of 06 those 3 very dangerous glitches do not appear AT ALL. So tell me again, how exactly does 06 have a greater quantity of Flaw X than game Y? (Sonic Lost World)

I could be wrong though, correct me if i'm wrong.

I can't actually find any evidence this problem ever existed (with the exception of one, which I cover below), for one thing. So for your sake I hope you actually have something to link, instead of just making this up as you go. Not that I care because this isn't really relevant to '06, but that would make you look pretty stupid.

 

 

So your telling me that you've never seen the seizure glitch from lost world at all?

Yes I have, but it's a glitch so rare that barely more than a single person ever actually reported it, and the exact circumstances for replicating it were never actually discovered. And even then it was patched within two weeks or so of being discovered. How many glitches on '06 can you compare that to? Literally none, because even despite being patched at least once the game remains a bugfest to this day.

 

You just said that the ONLY reason Sonic is a hedgehog is because he could ROLL.

No, I said it was because he could curl up into a ball. The rolling was an added bonus. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth and trying to refute what the literal word of god on this subject has proven. People here have researched this subject in far greater depth than they ever will for '06, and you're going to look like an absolute fool if you keep this up.

 

 

If I were as wrong as he claims me to be, I would at least expect him to prove my statements wrong instead of just ignoring it and still acting like he's right.

He doesn't need to, because 1) the people of this thread have been doing it for him, and 2) because literally anyone with twenty minutes of spare time and a search engine can prove this to themselves. Once again, I reiterate - Sonic '06's fuckups go without saying.

[DBZHedgy]

Okay dude, say what you will to defend the game, but don't go using a fan porting to get your point across (especially when said porting is pretty much intentionally made that way to represent the 06 experience). 

 

Edit: Also, just as an example of how the porting is done when serious about it, here:

 

 

I like 06 but even I have to admit this is better than the stage its porting over from (in my opinion) so if a porting is bad, it was probably meant to be that way (most of the time).

I know how porting is done, that doesn't change the fact that many people who despise 06 want to and have enjoyed this experience, with many of the games level design intact. The only things that aren't are the character swtichings and the scripted sections, that's the only absence, yet people constantly talk about the horrible level design... If it was so horrible, no one would be able to enjoy it, much less play through it, or port it to a different engine hand have it work almost perfectly with a few minor tweaks. Another thing worth noting is that the 06 has parts of the levels they inhabit in sonic generations as it stands, and people aren't complaining about the level design there. If it's only certain portions of the game that have bad level design than state it. ALL of the levels do not have bad level design though.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

 

Sixth Rate Soma pointed this out to me fairly well actually, so going over it again seems a bit redundant.

 

I know this is a late reply, but the fact that for all my needlessly long elaboration you still misunderstood my point excuses any redundancy in trying to explain it again.

[DBZHedgy]

Or, like others have stated, the execution is completely different from game to game, thus causing a different reaction.  As is, you may as well be comparing the Mona Lisa to a statue of Athena simply because they're both artistic works which prominently features women.  But they're not the same execution and as such evoke a far different response.

 

 

Not really?  I mean, sure, the levels can be difficult, but it's rarely ever a matter of because you didn't see it coming or because you didn't have time to react.  (Granted, I haven't played many of the more recent Mega Mans so maybe their level design has devolved over the years)

This is true, but what yields this different result, why is it that just because their different structures they cannot be compared. They have features that are similar, and as such have potential comparison material. Everything can be compared on a substantial level while still making proper sense because they share a feature or two. 

People make it seem like i'm comparing air with water and asking why people don't drink air. That's the exact opposite of what I'm doing.

 

Actually, many megaman games do this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINqu2PJxOA‎

 

 

Especially with bosses. The game usually flings new features in the boss as soon as you start to realize their primary attack pattern. The unpredictability coupled with the fact that the player doesn't know the bosses weakness right off the bat results in many cases of cheap difficulty.

[Diogenes]

The only things that aren't are the character swtichings and the scripted sections,

Considering how much of '06 is made up of those, that makes for some pretty serious changes to the level design. Basically half of the level in the video you quoted is completely different from the original.

If it was so horrible, no one would be able to enjoy it, much less play through it,

You keep acting like if there isn't a unanimous consensus on it being utter shit, that there's nothing wrong with it. That is incorrect.

Another thing worth noting is that the 06 has parts of the levels they inhabit in sonic generations as it stands, and people aren't complaining about the level design there.

I do. I think boost game level design is shit.

[DBZHedgy]

The difference is a matter of density.

Some games have a bug that is worse than any known bug in '06. However, bugs of that sort are likely to be tightly contained. They most likely only crop up under very specific circumstances, in very limited areas of the game, often requiring specific and/or unintuitive actions. You can likely play the vast majority of the game, or even the entirety of it, without running into any notable glitches. Even a game with a severe bug can be enjoyable and worthwhile when that bug does not take effect. This doesn't excuse the glitch, mind; it's still a flaw in the game, but its specificity limits its effect on the game.

'06, on the other hand, is impossible to play without being hassled by poor programming. Almost every aspect of the gameplay is broken, awkward, or finicky in some way. It is terrible from the second you gain control to the second you throw the controller through the window in frustration. There is no point at which the game works properly.

At any rate, no amount of pointing at other games means '06 is any less shitty anyway. Other games may be glitchy. Other games may be terrible. Some of them may even be worse than '06. But '06 is still indefensibly shitty. And even if we were all hypocrites in attacking '06 but not other games, all that would mean is that other games deserve to be attacked as well, along with attacking '06.

I'd like to point out again, that many people go on to say that INDIVIDUALLY sonic 06's problems are terrible. None of these occurrences yield these results. 

They are not treated as such however, and many of the glitches that are found in Sonic Lost World are found in average playthroughs not glitch hunting.

 

"all that would mean is that other games deserve to be attacked as well, along with attacking 06"

My point exactly, but is it? No, it's shrugged off. Because it's (once again) Nit picking.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

 

I'd like to point out again, that many people go on to say that INDIVIDUALLY sonic 06's problems are terrible.

 

Then let me be the first to say that 06 is collectively trash, from start to finish. There is hardly a thing done right. If, by some miracle something succeeded in execution, it was only after it failed in conception.

 

I realize these are strong words, but I'm honestly unsure if softening them won't get misunderstood somehow. You really must step back from all these minor points and look at the big picture for once, comrade.

[Diogenes]

Actually, many megaman games do this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINqu2PJxOA‎

Man basically none of these deaths are due to trial and error design. A few of them require quick reactions if you don't know they're coming (and these generally only punish you with damage, not instant death), some of them punish you too harshly for not being precise, but the majority of these are just the player not paying enough attention, not planning ahead, not taking his time around dangerous obstacles.

[Komodin]

They are not treated as such however, and many of the glitches that are found in Sonic Lost World are found in average playthroughs not glitch hunting.

 

Hmm? Would you kindly link to video evidence of such glitches that are present in Sonic Lost World? I ask this because I've played through the game myself and I haven't encountered any glitches during said run.

 

By the way, if you're referring to that egregiously bad "flashing light" glitch in the Frozen Factory Zone 3 pinball board, that has since been fixed.

[DBZHedgy]

Except that MegasonicZX was specifically talking about if the game was finished, not if the game had more development time or some other situation that would had allowed changes to gameplay concepts. I was responding to his answer under the mentality that he was speaking that the game would had been better had the game mechanics as they were were completely implemented into the game without any glitches or bugs whatsoever.

 

Also, even if they were going to implement X (for the sake of simple analogies, I'm using letters here) that could had made Y "better," it depends on objectively "how" much better it would made X better in terms of concept and execution as well as the significance of "X's" implementation to "Y" when you compare to things of varied importance. It doesn't mean much to successfully fix problem Y with implementation X if problems S, T, U, V, W, and Z, aren't fixed or were unsuccessfully "fixed". Using this logic along with the knowledge I know about the game itself (specifically it's development, the concepts that made it in the game, and how they were executed and were received by people who have encountered them during the game), I can make judgements on whether these concepts would had greatly benefited the game or not.

 

As for the story, it only would had gone through a "redux" / revision under the pretense that Sonic Team and/or Sega didn't think the story was good (enough) and decided to make changes. Which was clearly not the case.

 

And I have no idea where you're getting these claims that I'm supposedly insinuating that everything proposed in development makes it into the final game, which was completely unrelated to the point I was arguing.

Finished means to complete a project. If things are left out, or problems arise in the duration of making the game they have the proitity to be changed! More Development Time or some other situation would guarantee that many of the assumptions that you brought up to be either incorrect, or misguided belief.

 

Game development is a rather chaotic situation. Games ususally go through dramatic changes before they are released. Problems could have arisen when going over the game again before the final release, changing these aspects must mean that there was a flaw in it originally. Fixing problem X to make Y better follows suit in fixing S T U V and W as well if they apply to it. That's practically what programming is all about. Fixing whatever problems arise.

 

How exactly do you know that this isn't the case? Half of the development team split up to work on Sonic and the Secret Rings, thus limiting their range of the game's story even more. 

 

You just stated that you were responding to SoniTH's statement on whether all of these gameplay choices were finished. Since you implyed that the game would implement everything that the game already had and finished it, that would imply that everything that is in the development would be kept in the final release. 

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Man basically none of these deaths are due to trial and error design. A few of them require quick reactions if you don't know they're coming (and these generally only punish you with damage, not instant death), some of them punish you too harshly for not being precise, but the majority of these are just the player not paying enough attention, not planning ahead, not taking his time around dangerous obstacles.

 

Yeah, basically. The main difference here between Mega Man and 06 is that, while Mega Man may sometimes give too hard a punishment for human error, 06 skips over human error and just punishes you anyways.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Yeah, basically. The main difference here between Mega Man and 06 is that, while Mega Man may sometimes give too hard a punishment for human error, 06 skips over human error and just punishes you anyways.

So Mega Man is a Sergeant Rock that punishes you hard but only when you screw up, while 06 is a Neidermeyer who punishes you whenever he feels like it?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

How do you know that? There is a thing called unused media, many of the concepts in Sonic 06 could have been replaced by different concepts that all around work differently. It happens all the time with video games, and it isn't to say that Sonic games haven't gone through these changes either. You can't just say that it will because it's unfinished. There were still many things that they intended to implement which couldve made the design choice so much better. 

 

The Story could've also gone through a redux as well, you make it seem like everything that is in an unfinished game or beta version ALWAYS makes it into the final product, this is not true in MANY circumstances.

 

Look, the fact is, bottomline, the notion that the game could've been better does not change the reality that it came out a horrible mess.

 

Hell, in my outlook of the situation, the fact that it could've been better immensely, had they put more effort into it, pisses me off. As a college student who's had to work his butt to get straight A's around the clock, there is nothing that disgusts me more than companies thinking they can get off Scott-free by slashing away at a product's effort, workforce, detail, attention, etc, all for the sake of making money. I've gone on rants about this with third-party treatment of the Wii U ports, but the short version is:

 

"Wow! You mean the consumers don't want a product that got explicitly crippled and in the process it hurts our rep!?"

 

My response: No fucking shit. I don't get straight A's by giving grade C or B effort, so why should you?

 

Wasted effort to me, can be even worse than a bad game that at least went the full mile. And Sonic 06 is one of those rush jobs that deservedly came out and got panned. I will not support wasted effort that mocks the hard work me and peers are expected to give.

 

And before you bring up a possible tangent like Crash Twinsanity, that game actually got its programming and stability properly tended, too, they actually managed to still stuff a great deal in, keep it fun and well written, hell they even poke fun at themselves for it! Not to mention that devs to this day have expressed interest in re-releasing Twinsanity in a more complete full glory, given the opportunity.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Just for fun I went back to see when this whole argument with DZHedgy started. It was on page 114. So that's about twenty-five pages of one guy trying to make a case for why Sonic 06 ain't that bad and basically everybody else arguing against it.

 

If a guy can keep that kind of determination for two weeks straight without at any point running out of momentum, then I truly believe that he will NEVER EVER reach a point where he goes "Guess you guys are right. Sonic 06, while still a fun game to me, is objectively a low-quality game befitting its reputation."

 

What's funny is that even I have a history of defending Sonic 06. I was so overhyped over the product that I willfully ignored any criticisms and made a dedicated effort to adjust to the game's shortcomings so I could master it by its own rules. Hell, I even 100%'d the sucker. Still, that kind of illusion is hard to maintain, and once the rose-tinted glasses came off I basically abandoned the entire Sonic franchise for over a year. It took the Sonic Unleashed demo to bring me back, and I could not believe how unlike Sonic 06 that demo was. Then the werehog was announced, and I naturally reacted with "Nevermind, the franchise is still dead". Fortunately I gave the game a go after all, and though to this day I can't stand the werehog levels the other half of Sonic Unleashed is one of my favourite blue blur experiences.

 

Sonic 06 was my Sonic franchise mid-life crisis. I've got strong hopes for the franchise today, but the effect of it is that I never bother getting hyped for Sonic games until a playable demo is available. I think that may be one of the reasons why Sonic 4 never offended me the way it did a lot of fans. I was never hyped for it - didn't even notice the release date until I happened to see it advertised on XBox Live. I had fun playing it from the start, and I still consider Sonic 4 a really fun game worth replaying...but I wouldn't dismiss its criticisms just because I had a better experience with it.

[The Tenth Doctor]

I'd like to put in that you thought 06 was banned from discussion due to how everyone hates it. This is actually wrong. I've seen so many people arrive on the forum and what are their first actions? Make a topic called "06 is the best!!" and just yell it as much as possible. People would say no, but the user would scream back "Your wrong! 06 is the best!! Your just dumb!". This is why its banned. To stop people needlessly provoking others with their unthought out topics, which sadly always seemed to be 06.

Another point is how you said no around here accepts someone around here if they openly like 06. Wrong. I have stated my like of the game many times, even once in this discussion. This is met with people saying "I see why you like it, you have good points. It's not to my tastes though but I respect your opinion." Why am I not getting flack? Easy, I state my facts, do not antagonise, do not insult other games and say the truth as it is. It's not perfect but it has a few good fun times. The fact is, 06 has been burned into most peoples memories for making the rest of the world hate us. Critics, gamers and the public looked at the unfinished shell and tore it wide open. That shell has sat in our minds for so long, reminding us of how we had to fight back from that speedy release. Unleashed had good sales? Its because we the fans wanted to see if Sega could make the world love Sonic again. The trailer looked promising, everyone was impressed. You like a trailer, you get the game. It also helped Unleashed was on 4 consoles as opposed to two.

So in answer to your question, 06 is hated for the hatred it brought on us around here. We are willing to accept 06 fans among us, they just have to see reason and not challenge others, otherwise things'll get messy.

[DBZHedgy]

Considering how much of '06 is made up of those, that makes for some pretty serious changes to the level design. Basically half of the level in the video you quoted is completely different from the original.

You keep acting like if there isn't a unanimous consensus on it being utter shit, that there's nothing wrong with it. That is incorrect.

I do. I think boost game level design is shit.

There are ports that exist with everything except for the listed above in them, with little to no changes, and it's STILL being supported, and are STILL being enjoyed for such. 

 

Oops, I did that again, let me re-elaborate.

If the game's level design were as bad as it is claimed to be, no one would bother porting it. And even if that was taken into account, no one would be excited for it. Several people who outright LOATH the game are waiting in anticipation for the ports to be released. BrianuuuuSonic has made a port that's almost completely identical with 06 and people who hate the game are supporting him. I can understand beating the game to completion, but supporting a port with terrible level design is another thing. And to top it off, none of these people are suggesting and changes with the game's levels design AT ALL, including people who have modded the game themselves.

 

Ok, what does that prove? I can say, I like Sonic 06 all day, but it won't go to show that it's actually well made, or good. 

 

Man basically none of these deaths are due to trial and error design. A few of them require quick reactions if you don't know they're coming (and these generally only punish you with damage, not instant death), some of them punish you too harshly for not being precise, but the majority of these are just the player not paying enough attention, not planning ahead, not taking his time around dangerous obstacles.

This is just one game. And this is just one person's experiences however. 

I have fallen victim to these level design choices very frequently and it cased me nothing but frustration. I still enjoy the game though. The constant barrage of attacks and brutal deaths are all to teach the player to be more cautious. As such people who do play Megaman games become more cautious to keep from dying. That is Trail and Error. The player MUST know it's coming, or have extremely good reflexes to see it coming and/or dodge it. Sometimes players can KNOW it's coming and still not be able to react accordingly. 

 

 

Then let me be the first to say that 06 is collectively trash, from start to finish. There is hardly a thing done right. If, by some miracle something succeeded in execution, it was only after it failed in conception.

 

I realize these are strong words, but I'm honestly unsure if softening them won't get misunderstood somehow. You really must step back from all these minor points and look at the big picture for once, comrade.

I must point out again, that many gameplay choices from 06 are used in later games, therefore not everything is done incorrectly and cannot be counted as hardly doing anything right. The Engine is the only real problem with the gameplay, and that's only due to the lack of development it got. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

THERE WERE LITTLE TO NO FANS OUT THERE THAT DIDN'T WANT THIS GAME WHEN THE PREVIEWS AND DEMOS CAME OUT.

 

 

But according to your profile you were around 7 or 8 when that happened and neither the PS360 had been out for very long and not many people had one so... ... wait and from what I remember around these parts, demand for a Sonic 06 port to the Wii dropped over night when the reviews came out. 

 

 

Actually... forget that, I'm more interested in this...

 

I'd like to point out again, that many people go on to say that INDIVIDUALLY sonic 06's problems are terrible. None of these occurrences yield these results. 

They are not treated as such however, and many of the glitches that are found in Sonic Lost World are found in average playthroughs not glitch hunting.

 

Can you please link to evidence of this?

 

I don't own this game so I'll be most curious to see evidence of problems that SLW has which are on par with Sonic 06's.

[Gabz Girl]

DBZHedgy there's games that are so bad, they're good and then there's games that are so bad, they're just bad. For example Shadow the Hedgehog is so bad it's good because of the hilariously DARK and EPIC plot with the out of place aliens straight out of Gears of War, the convoluted backstory that Shadow has, the swearing and the awkward animations in the real time cutscenes. And tbh the gameplay works quite well and there aren't too many glitches to be found.

Sonic 06 on the other hand is a bad game simply because hardly anything in the game is good or laughably bad! The music really is the only good thing to be found I can find in that game but hey, if you like it so much then fine. That's your opinion, but again you can't disagree with ours! Stop trying to defend this!

Edit: Just saw Emmett's post and I 100% agree with his statement! You're just so damn determined DBZ.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

 

I must point out again, that many gameplay choices from 06 are used in later games, therefore not everything is done incorrectly and cannot be counted as hardly doing anything right.

 

I assume you're referring to the Mach Speed sections and what you assume to be their influence on the gameplay of the boost games, because there's absolutely nothing else in the franchise I can think of that hadn't been tried before in some form.

 

The driving thesis behind the Mach Speed sections is that Sonic goes really fast. The driving thesis behind the boost games, too seems to be that Sonic goes really fast. And you know, a lot of games in the Sonic series seem to revolve around Sonic going really fast. That's because Sonic going really fast is one of the founding concepts of the series.

 

The most influence that 06 could have possibly had on such a long-running idea is the addition of QTEs to the mix, which is still one of the worst parts of the boost games. Sonic Rush alone has far more influence on the boost games because the boost games are 3D translations of Sonic Rush. And Sonic Rush came out first.

[DBZHedgy]

So Mega Man is a Sergeant Rock that punishes you hard but only when you screw up, while 06 is a Neidermeyer who punishes you whenever he feels like it?

That's beside the point. The game wants you to be practically perfect to be able to see what's coming around the corner. 

 

Look, the fact is, bottomline, the notion that the game could've been better does not change the reality that it came out a horrible mess.

 

Hell, in my outlook of the situation, the fact that it could've been better immensely, had they put more effort into it, pisses me off. As a college student who's had to work his butt to get straight A's around the clock, there is nothing that disgusts me more than companies thinking they can get off Scott-free by slashing away at a product's effort, workforce, detail, attention, etc, all for the sake of making money. I've gone on rants about this with third-party treatment of the Wii U ports, but the short version is:

 

"Wow! You mean the consumers don't want a product that got explicitly crippled and in the process it hurts our rep!?"

 

My response: No fucking shit. I don't get straight A's by giving grade C or B effort, so why should you?

 

Wasted effort to me, can be even worse than a bad game that at least went the full mile. And Sonic 06 is one of those rush jobs that deservedly came out and got panned. I will not support wasted effort that mocks the hard work me and peers are expected to give.

 

And before you bring up a possible tangent like Crash Twinsanity, that game actually got its programming and stability properly tended, too, they actually managed to still stuff a great deal in, keep it fun and well written, hell they even poke fun at themselves for it! Not to mention that devs to this day have expressed interest in re-releasing Twinsanity in a more complete full glory, given the opportunity.

I sincerely wish that you would read through the discussion and the quotes that it ensued before commenting on something later in the discussion...

I was referring to Gabe and his statement "If the game was finished it would still be bad" 

 

Either way, you are right, the fact that all of this was left out made me pretty sad and angry, but do you honestly think that Sega would scrap a game that took such drastic amounts of money and time spent into it? Did you honestly think that a game THIS overhyped would just be canceled? No, Indigo Rush pointed out specifically that Sega is a greedy company, their going to want to make as much money as they can, and seeing as how the sales for Shadow The Hedgehog was SOOOO POOR, they HAD to release something this hyped or else the company would've fallen into a black hole. Secret Rings' success came off of 06's failure. Many of the more advanced programmers went to work on secret rings and left many of the noobs in charge for 06, that was a pretty dumb decision in my opinion, but Secret Rings sold exceptionally well, and it acted as a kickstarter for Unleashed. Without these two games Sonic would be gone. You have 06 to thank for Sonic being here right now. 

 

And the fact that Many fans barely showed support for the game would make it even worse because they devs wanted to make it better. No one gave this game a fair chance. As soon as it was released, an explosion of hate with absolutely no positive criticism reached Sega, so as a result they abandoned it. It's really sad to be honest. Yuji Naka leaving didn't help either. The only thing to blame for 06's failure is a series of unfortunate events.

 

And although many people did want to continue work on the game, the possibility was just out of the question since many fans didn't want anything to do with 06 again. People showed promise for Lost World and even after released majority still supported Lost World, that resulted in many patches of the game to fix it. No one really cares about plot in a Sonic game, it all boils down to gameplay, and as such the gameplay could have been improved if people actually gave it a chance.

 

I don't accept 06 as an uncompleted product, I accept it for a complete game and only because that was the best it was going to get seeing as how the criticism for it is so momentous. The game had numerous problems but I would much rather be stuck for a buggy mess than nothing at all and Sonic being gone forever.

[Nepenthe]

I was bringing up these points individually to see whether or not they caused an effect. Because as blacklightning and many others have stated, all of these problems are major problems on their own as well. If they really were than the examples that I have yeilded would generally cause just as much ruckus as them in Sonic 06. Since this isn't the case, then that must be a lie, or it's nit picking.

 

They are major problems on their own. A game whose only problem is bad writing for example is problematic. However, a game with bad writing is not necessarily either A.) as badly written, or B.) as compounded on with the other problems that I named as Sonic 06. Hence, they are still not as bad as Sonic 06 as you keep trying to prove. This is actual the argument people are making and the one you continually fail to understand.

 

And let me be clear on another thing: writing a lot in response to someone is not a refutation or a rebuttal or a sign that people are lying or nit-picking. Unless you are actually comprehending the arguments of a person properly, then it becomes impossible for a proper discussion to take place. What you have been doing is- either deliberately or otherwise- completely missing the overall point and context people have been making and thus strawmanning them. This is not good debate tactic and it is the reason people are fed up with you. Simply put, you're not understanding what people are saying yet you're arguing anyway.

[JAiRO]

The game had numerous problems but I would much rather be stuck for a buggy mess than nothing at all and Sonic being gone forever.

I wish they had just skipped releasing a main title game in 2006. Franchise saved.

Sonic Generations should've had Silver going to the past to try to stop Sonic '06 from shipping.

"I'VE GOTTA SAVE THE FUTURE!"