The Sonic Vs Thread.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I dunno...I kinda like the environment being a factor that prevents any one character from being too powerful. Allows for more flexibility and allows strengths and weaknesses to weigh in heavily.

[Tani Coyote]

That all being said, the majority of Silver's abilties are context based, so if Blaze fought him in a junkyard or something he would probably rape her shit horribly. In the end I think it's safe to say that there's really no unbiased way to determine a possible superiority of one over the other, because there's no controlled environment that doesn't favour one character or the other. Which is a crying fucking shame, because I like arguments to be definitive. =\

 

Even if they aren't in an environment with anything grabbable, he could grab her heart or other vitals. Put a little bit of a squeeze and... well, that's it. Game over.

 

On the flipside Blaze could set his innards on fire assuming she can use her powers from a distance (never really followed any games she was in).

 

This is all gruesome overall but it's clear psychics are probably the most dangerous beings apart from an ominpotent God: they can harm you with but a thought. The only true weakness they have is inability to concentrate.

 

So, as I said, let's be glad the characters can be kind of idiotic! Otherwise you'd have a real menace on your hands.

[Jolt_TH]

Even if they aren't in an environment with anything grabbable, he could grab her heart or other vitals. Put a little bit of a squeeze and... well, that's it. Game over.

However we haven't seen Silver be able to choose certain parts of an object, at the moment. It seems like he can either affect the whole object with his powers or nothing. There is nothing to say that is powers couldn't do that, but he is just incapable. So he'd probably just end up grabbing her

Edited March 20, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Tani Coyote]

I'm just stating the logical extension of it all - if he can grab a larger object he can logically shrink his field as well. What is a body but a bunch of various objects (organs, connections, bones, etc.) all tightly wound together? With a bit of focus it wouldn't be hard to grab one part or another.

 

It really all goes back to why we should be happy he's such a lighthearted dimwit, otherwise he could be very dangerous and find cruel, gruesome ways to make use of his powers.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Darth InVaders]

Dude, look, here's the thing: it doesn't.

Being able to use Chaos Control with a Chaos Emerald does not preclude being able to use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald. Being able to use Chaos Control with or without an emerald does not make "can use Chaos Control with a Chaos Emerald" an inaccurate descriptor.

Stop posting fifty goddamn links to the same shit every time this comes up. You're not telling us anything we don't already know. And it's doing less to support your theory and more to make you look like a goddamn kook.

Those quotes clearly define Chaos Emeralds and the power they generate as the enabling source for Chaos Control - or do I have to pull out the definition of the word "use" as taught to first graders.

v. used, us·ing, us·es

v.tr.

1. To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.

2. To avail oneself of; practice.

3. To conduct oneself toward; treat or handle.

4. To seek or achieve an end by means of; exploit.

5. To take or consume; partake of.

Obviously #1 is being used in quotes like "Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" and, if you read the dictionary quote I just used, that use of the word "use" is absolute although you can make it an option like you claim if an extra word is added. But nowhere in those official quotes is a phrase like "sometimes using Chaos Emeralds" or "mostly using..." or "usually using..." or anything of the sort of word that would make it optional - instead the quote is "using Chaos Emeralds" in an absolute form as a permanent part of the very definition of Chaos Control (the definition beginning after the word "to" in that above quote).

Quotes such as "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." and Shadow's cutscene claims that "there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake" and "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" cannot possibly be reconciled with your logic. Chaos Emeralds are such a permanent part of Chaos Control that warping time and space without Emeralds' power is not even Chaos Control (and no, Shadow cannot warp time and space without Chaos Control as the quote "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" proves).

And the links of no real importance, it is the quotes that matter. The links were only to allow others to verify that the quotes were accurate and in context - I'll go back and delete them if they are distracting from the only thing that matters if they are distracting from it.

Yeah? Well what I saw in Shadow's opening of Sonic 06,

proves me right. No, it is not something else. It is Chaos Control.

Cut the crap, will ya? You're probably the only person on this whole damn forum (or even other Sonic forums) that's so deadset on insisting that he needs a Chaos Emerald or else he can't do Chaos Control. News flash: He can use it without a Chaos Emerald.

And none of your references are going to make me believe in this "contradiction" you're claiming, because there is no contradiction to begin with.

Hammering one example is not enough to prove a change in canon given the mountain of evidence to the contrary including evidence from more recent material than yours and you have to perform far more mental gymnastics in those quotes. You have no other cutscene and absolutely no profile or "Word of God" to quote to prove the change you argue. Also of note is that some of my previous posts arguing this have gotten likes on this site while other sites have had members more receptive than you and these other posters arguing this. Not that it matters anyway, back when SA2 was first released I seemed to be the only one who did not take as fact the stupid fan theory that all of Shadow's memories were fake and that he never met Maria or was on ARK or was the original Shadow (who died or something) and all that bull - instead I argued the only not real memory was Maria's last moments and the "other Shadow" was Biolizard - and who turned out to be right?

I count all abilities used in gameplay as canon, even Amy's invisibility (it's not like Espio's invisibility works like chameleon's camouflage)

Your forgetting that the Green Chaos Emerald that Shadow uses in his Team Blast is the same emerald his team gets in the first special stage (along with the white chaos emerald in Rail Canyon/Bullet Station).

How can you explain Amy's invisibility? It is out of nowhere, is unexplained, and makes no sense. How can you explain the extra life system in the games? Because if you count all game play elements as canon, then the characters' ability to use the extra life system and continues system are somehow canon. Furthermore, the green Emerald Shadow pulls out for Team Blast in Heroes is pulled out before the player can possibly collect any Emeralds (which can only be done after the 2nd stage yet Team Blast with this extra Emerald can be used during both the first and second stage), not to mention that the player does not have to collect any Emeralds during the Team story. So if Shadow's extra 8th Emerald is canon too, then if he has this extra Emerald on him, it disproves the whole "can use Chaos Control without Emeralds" argument - wanna rethink what you said?

Yes this. While we can't really establish what Shadow was doing in Riders from a canon perspective, I think it's safe to establish that he has limited use of his powers without emeralds. I suppose he's an artificial emerald in and of himself.

On his quotes in SA2: he was asleep for fifty years. He likely had memory loss, or hadn't really had much time to perfect his abilities. As someone who's more refined than Sonic in his approach, he presumably studied his powers in between games and made them more potent. He himself even shows his flaws at understanding when he says the techniques can't be used with fake emeralds; it shows how little he actually knows about the force he proclaims himself master of.

There is absolutely no proof that Shadow is an artificial Emerald. The whole claim is based on circular logic: "I believe the unproven claim that Chaos Control needs Chaos Emerald energy but Shadow can do it without Emeralds... therefore to prove the above claim Shadow must be a Chaos Emerald himself with the only evidence being that previous claim". Hell I'd be more willing to believe that Chaos Drives are fake Emeralds than that (there is an argument to be made there based on Rouge's report about The Truth of 50 Years Ago actually). And this memory loss thing you claim is bull - it is confirmed that the only memory problem Shadow had in SA2 was his memory of Maria's wish (like I said above this was something I argued about with other Sonic fans back when SA2 was first released and they stupidly claimed his entire memory was fake, he never met Maria or was on ARK, yadda yadda). Edited March 20, 2013 by Darth InVaders

[Tani Coyote]

He can use chaos spear without emeralds. It's been shown. Logically he can use Chaos Control as well. In his own game he doesn't even need to absorb the emeralds' power to use Control or Blast, unless we run on the assumption it's because he has the emeralds on his person, but that runs into problems because the blast or teleportation doesn't get more powerful with each one you collect.

 

Clearly, he has a natural connection to chaos energy, which is what I meant by saying he was an artificial emerald. He's nowhere near as powerful as an actual emerald but can wield a sizable amount of power in one's absence regardless.

 

Most importantly of all, Shadow's not omniscient. He was likely under the assumption you needed emeralds to use Chaos Control. He was proven wrong. We make mistakes, and so do characters. It's what makes them believable. All his quotes on the matter are therefore irrelevant; he's only setting the possibilities of chaos emeralds, not their limits.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Diogenes]

Those quotes clearly define Chaos Emeralds and the power they generate as the enabling source for Chaos Control - or do I have to pull out the definition of the word "use" as taught to first graders.

First off, tumut for trying to talk down to me like this when you can't even understand the basics of the language.

Quotes such as "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." and Shadow's cutscene claims that "there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake" and "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" cannot possibly be reconciled with your logic.

Yes they can. For the first and third, as I said, the ability to use a Chaos Emerald to perform Chaos Control does not preclude being able to use Chaos Control without an emerald. I possess the power to use a car to travel to the store. This does not preclude me being able to walk there. For the second, Shadow was wrong, simple as.

And the links of no real importance, it is the quotes that matter.

Trust me you'd look just as crazy if you only posted the quotes. It's your insane devotion to incompetent pedantry and wrong theories spurring you to post walls of pointless blather that is embarrassing, not the particular format you do it in.

Also of note is that some of my previous posts arguing this have gotten likes on this site while other sites have had members more receptive than you and these other posters arguing this.

Facts are not a popularity contest and even if they were you aren't the only one getting likes. If you had any actual evidence (that we hadn't already shot down) we could discuss that, but trying to wave your microscopic e-penis around to bolster your argument is a waste of time and kind of sad.

e: vvv see look at 'em trickle in

Edited March 20, 2013 by Diogenes

[Sparky]

How can you explain Amy's invisibility? It is out of nowhere, is unexplained, and makes no sense. How can you explain the extra life system in the games? Because if you count all game play elements as canon, then the characters' ability to use the extra life system and continues system are somehow canon. Furthermore, the green Emerald Shadow pulls out for Team Blast in Heroes is pulled out before the player can possibly collect any Emeralds (which can only be done after the 2nd stage yet Team Blast with this extra Emerald can be used during both the first and second stage), not to mention that the player does not have to collect any Emeralds during the Team story. So if Shadow's e Ixtra 8th Emerald is canon too, then if he has this extra Emerald on him, it disproves the whole "can use Chaos Control without Emeralds" argument - wanna rethink what you said?

 

I really don't see why Amy's invisibility makes no sense. She has a magical hammer, she's into stuff like Tarot Card reading and dowsing and stuff. In the Archie Comics, she has limited wish-granting abilities. I said abilites used in gameplay, not all gameplay elements such as the extra lives, although that could just be chalked up to supernatural forces or something. I was just saying that Shadow's green chaos emerald matches the first emerald his team gets in the first zone.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Hammering one example is not enough to prove a change in canon given the mountain of evidence to the contrary including evidence from more recent material than yours and you have to perform far more mental gymnastics in those quotes.

Vomiting links doesn't prove that there was no change either, considering that's all you've been doing every time someone brings up Shadow using Chaos Control without an emerald. Nevermind that the most recent material Sonic Generations, clearly shows Shadow teleporting without an emerald and using an energy orb to do so.

You have no other cutscene and absolutely no profile or "Word of God" to quote to prove the change you argue. 

"Word of God" was pretty much the authority to making him teleport in that cutscene in the first place, and he certainly isn't arguing against it now is he?

[Tani Coyote]

"Word of God" was pretty much the authority to making him teleport in that cutscene in the first place, and he certainly isn't arguing against it now is he?

 

Quoted for truth; the general rule is that if some stated plotline doesn't explicitly deny something that occurs in game, then you can accept the game as canon. Obviously all the deaths are non-canon, but since Shadow's wide range of powers without emeralds that are used in gameplay have never been openly denied by a reputable source, it's safe to say that they are all legitimate. He can use his powers without the emeralds, and has in most of his main appearances sans Heroes.

[Jolt_TH]

Maybe he DID need the emeralds to start with but over time he got used to focusing the energies required and so he doesn't need them anymore?

Like armbands, when someone is learning to swim they use armbands to help them, making it safer and easier for them to learn, then when they get good enough they loose the armbands and use the knowledge and techniques they learned to swim without the armbands.

He needed the emeralds to use Chaos Control because he came out of a 50 year status (and I have no idea to what extent he mastered his powers on the ARK, I'm assuming not much because he never had the reason) hit as the games went on he mastered his powers and the energies required to do them and now ONLY needs a chaos emerald to use Chaos Control over time as well as space.

[Splash the Otter]

The idea of Shadow being able to Chaos Control without an emerald always made me feel uncomfortable. It essentially turns him into an omnipotent, godlike character without any weaknesses or limitations.

[Diogenes]

He's practically that regardless.

[Chaos Warp]

He's practically that regardless.

in SA2, without a Chaos Emerald, he was basically Sonic. 

[Kuzu]

The idea of Shadow being able to Chaos Control without an emerald always made me feel uncomfortable. It essentially turns him into an omnipotent, godlike character without any weaknesses or limitations.

So basically what he's been since 2005 then

[Diogenes]

in SA2, without a Chaos Emerald, he was basically Sonic. 

When is Shadow not going to have an emerald.

[Chaos Warp]

When is Shadow not going to have an emerald.

Maybe when Sonic knocks it out of his hand? I'm sure he's fast enough.

[Diogenes]

Shadow can teleport and slow time.

[Chaos Warp]

Shadow can teleport and slow time.

Good point.

 

But what's to say he'll always have one in the first place? For his purposes, he's basically Sonic when he doesn't have one, which is still plenty strong enough. What if Eggman had all 7 Emeralds in a giant fuck-you lazer or something?  

[Kuzu]

Shadow only has an emerald when it's convenient otherwise he's slightly above Sonic in terms of abilities. I mean saying Shadow always has an emerald is like saying Sonic always has all seven on him and therefore can go super whenever he likes.

[Diogenes]

But what's to say he'll always have one in the first place?

For how long are they going to have Shadow walk around without his main gimmick? Not a whole lot of point to him if he's literally just a grumpy copy of Sonic.

e: SA2 kept its use out of the gameplay, but before he even had a level Shadow had acquired an emerald. Heroes had him pull one out of his ass, even if he hadn't and couldn't have actually collected any yet, for his Team Blast. ShtH threw you one less than a minute into the first level.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

Isn't that kind of the point if his character

[Sparky]

Chaos Control/Spear/Blast/Pony is to Shadow as Flight is to Tails/Power is to Knuckles/Cheese the God Chao is to Cream/Piko Piko Hammer is to Amy. 

[Tani Coyote]

Maybe he DID need the emeralds to start with but over time he got used to focusing the energies required and so he doesn't need them anymore?

Like armbands, when someone is learning to swim they use armbands to help them, making it safer and easier for them to learn, then when they get good enough they loose the armbands and use the knowledge and techniques they learned to swim without the armbands.

He needed the emeralds to use Chaos Control because he came out of a 50 year status (and I have no idea to what extent he mastered his powers on the ARK, I'm assuming not much because he never had the reason) hit as the games went on he mastered his powers and the energies required to do them and now ONLY needs a chaos emerald to use Chaos Control over time as well as space.

 

Hmm, this is actually an interesting idea and could work. It's a logical extension of my idea as to why he's gone from merely being able to use teleportation and shoot beams of lightning to turning himself into a living explosive or powering up his Spear into a Lance.

 

The idea of Shadow being able to Chaos Control without an emerald always made me feel uncomfortable. It essentially turns him into an omnipotent, godlike character without any weaknesses or limitations.

 

Well, he's probably not omnipotent, or else he probably would have executed Eggman by now. I assume Chaos Control still can wear him out without an emerald, or else he'd use it all the time. One can cry Gameplay/Story Segregation yes, but I like to think that even if he can use his abilities without an emerald he still has limits.

 

Though this is why I always have wanted SEGA to detail his weaknesses. Could you stab him with a Master Emerald shard and make him lose most of his power? What sort of injury would it take to mortally wound him before he can recover? There are three causes of death: trauma, aging and disease. He's immune to two and three, so logically injury is the only thing that can get him, unless there's some way to disable his agelessness and mass immunity.

[NocturnalTwilight]

Ever since I go Sonic Unleashed again, I've been wondering.

 

Sonic the Werehog VS Knuckles.