The Sonic Vs Thread.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Ya, we really need sub-categories, as we know that in battle Sonic vs shadow usualy sonic wins, however it is seen that it could end in a tie under the right circumstances. there would also be special multipliers(like say super mode, and spirit/determination)

[Jolt_TH]

Or you know go proper sonic and rank each stat E-S

Edited March 10, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

isnt that E to triple SSS

[Tani Coyote]

...that actually sounds like a fun idea there, Jolt.

 

Ya, we really need sub-categories, as we know that in battle Sonic vs shadow usualy sonic wins, however it is seen that it could end in a tie under the right circumstances. there would also be special multipliers(like say super mode, and spirit/determination)

 

At times though it strikes me as if Sonic wins purely because the plot demands it rather than anything concrete.

 

Perhaps one important quality in battle is acceleration. If Sonic can go from 0 to 700 in only a few feet, small quarters won't be a problem. If he can take a few minutes to reach that, the solution to beating him is to just corner him in a tight space. Then his greatest advantage is robbed from him.

[Jolt_TH]

Maybe involve strength and weaknesses as categories? E.g corner sonic in a swimming pool and he has less space to manoeuvre!

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Movement(main category):
Speed:
Acceleration:
Jump height:
Flight:(can be N/A)
Glide:
Climb:
Homing attack:
Dig:
Wall Jump:
special(case per case, like Amy's hammer jump, hammer skip):
spin Dash:
(would you like me to do the Attack section? or attributes section?, or want to give it a try)
 

Edited March 10, 2013 by Mandobardanjusik

[Diogenes]

Trying to work this out mathematically is just going to get silly and dumb. The numbers are arbitrary, the categories are unbalanced.

[Jolt_TH]

How's this for a mock profile?

Sonic the Hedgehog

Speed: S

Strength: C

Intelligence: B

Agility: A

Attacks: Spin Dash, Homing Attack

Strengths: "too fast for the naked eye"

Weaknesses: cannot swim

Special: Can turn super

Info: can run at over Mach 1, values the safety of his friends over his own, dives head first into things without thinking.

Feel free to add more, just a mockup and I can't think of much right now.

Don't wanna make this thread even MORE complicated, but what about 2 on 2 battles? Or even 2 on 1? (I don't think shadow could beat Cream and Amy )

Edit: forget mine someone beat me to it!

Edited March 10, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

well the idea is that secondary areas wouold be compared quantitatively on a case to case basis, however the general ones are compared directly using the secondaries as a modifier

Would you guys like an example of what I am thinking

[Tani Coyote]

Trying to work this out mathematically is just going to get silly and dumb. The numbers are arbitrary, the categories are unbalanced.

 

Yeah I'm gonna have to agree here. While it's a neat idea, I don't think it will end well. A general evaluation of each character's traits are best used when they go against eachother... I like to use this variable when I decide my battles, for example. I like to include different scenarios that could change the outcome. Such as the Super Sonic/Enerjak one I did.

 

I should try a more detailed battle akin to that sometime. Any suggestions/requests? I could try my best...

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

well, I gave a few, but Bark vs big, or perhaps Nack/Fang VS Rouge perhaps?

[Phos]

Given enough time. You can't sit around chanting to your emerald in the middle of a fight.

Knuckles is strong, agile, and at least fairly quick, but that's about all he's got. Compared to the guy who's as fast as Sonic, can teleport/stop time, and shoot lasers, and I don't think he's got that much of a chance.

Shadow OP Riot plz nerf.  

 

But is is kinda funny to think about how strong is Knuckles really?  He's able to go right through walls Sonic can't scratch, but then in the same game you have Sonic spinning through basically identical walls.  

 

I also think it's kinda funny that some of Shadow's lines in SA2 suggest that Sonic has better master over Chaos Control than Shadow, and yet Sonic doesn't bother with them and Shadow always makes a big deal about it.  By the way, does Shadow need an emerald to teleport?  They've been kinda wishy washy on that.  

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow OP Riot plz nerf.

That's a weird way to spell "Irelia", bro...

 

I also think it's kinda funny that some of Shadow's lines in SA2 suggest that Sonic has better master over Chaos Control than Shadow, and yet Sonic doesn't bother with them and Shadow always makes a big deal about it.  By the way, does Shadow need an emerald to teleport?  They've been kinda wishy washy on that.  

As I understand it, Shadow needs an emerald to amplify his teleportation and travel even longer distances while only being capable of short-range teleportation without it.

 

Speaking of Riot, MOBA games like League of Legends can be a decent way to set up an understanding of characters and their abilities for this series.

 

Knuckles can be Vi - a character who's all about punching and who's basic attacks can go straight through armor and deal even more damage.

 

Rouge can be Akali - she can hide in specific spots with smoke before dashing out and attacking someone nearby and wear them down.

 

Blaze can be Brand - fire based powers that deal damage over time from each hit.

 

Cream can be either Teemo, Lulu, or Soraka - a versatility of being stealth based, support, or carry (Teemo), or all around general support (Lulu or Soraka)

 

It's not exactly perfect since we're comparing completely different genres and playstyles, one which can be done solo (Platformers) while the other requires teamwork (MOBA Games). But it's just something to think about; there are a number of characters which you can be very OP or troublesome to deal with, but there are ways to counter and beat them regardless.

Edited March 11, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I just realized how hard it is to find out who's superior out of Heroes vs. Heroes, as opposed to Heroes vs. Villains. I mean, there are so many different factors to take into account so it makes me wonder who really is the strongest.

[Kareemadeem]

I just realized how hard it is to find out who's superior out of Heroes vs. Heroes, as opposed to Heroes vs. Villains. I mean, there are so many different factors to take into account so it makes me wonder who really is the strongest.

What about Villains vs. Villains?  

[Darth InVaders]

Stop lying.

Who's lying? I'm not, I'm quoting Sonic Team and the Sonic characters in their own words

I said nothing about Shadow the Hedgehog (game), I was talking about the first level and opening of his Story in Sonic 06. And his abilities in-game included Chaos Spear and Chaos Attack (which he used in the first level)

And that definately WAS Chaos Control in his opening. It had the same effect that it did in the CG opening of Shadow's game.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. However in game elements are not always canon (gameplay/story separation)... as evidenced by how Amy had Espio's chameleon abilities in Sonic06 and how Shadow was able to pull out a Chaos Emerald before his team even collected one (an 8th Emerald?) in Sonic Heroes (for the Team Dark Team Blast) therefore in game elements don't prove changes to canon. Though Chaos Spear & such have never really been given any explanation, so I generally avoid them.

But for that to be Chaos Control would be to completely contradict everything that has been canonically said about Chaos Control (many of which I quoted earlier)... therefore other possibilities must be considered. The vast majority of the evidence points to needing a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald for Chaos Control (it is all of those quotes and then some vs this one cutscene)

As I understand it, Shadow needs an emerald to amplify his teleportation and travel even longer distances while only being capable of short-range teleportation without it.

What I quoted Sonic Team and the Sonic characters saying clearly contradicts what you understand about not needing an Emerald (I guess its worth posting again, adding emphasis this time)...

-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006 cutscene

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gamechamp3000#p/c/7A0341B2BE90C555/15/bF9Vf_0jhkc

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile on Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/chara/shadow/index.html

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicAdventure2US-09.jpg

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SA2BGC_US_manual_0005.jpg

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Shadow profile in Sonic Heroes manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_Heroes_US_XBOX_Page_4.jpg

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Shadow profile in Sonic Rivals manual and on Rivals websites

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SRV_MAN_US_0006.jpg

http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicrivals/

http://sonicrivals.sega-europe.com/en/

[Kuzu]

Who's lying? I'm not, I'm quoting Sonic Team and the Sonic characters in their own words

Sorry about the misunderstanding. However in game elements are not always canon (gameplay/story separation)... as evidenced by how Amy had Espio's chameleon abilities in Sonic06 and how Shadow was able to pull out a Chaos Emerald before his team even collected one (an 8th Emerald?) in Sonic Heroes (for the Team Dark Team Blast) therefore in game elements don't prove changes to canon. Though Chaos Spear & such have never really been given any explanation, so I generally avoid them.

But for that to be Chaos Control would be to completely contradict everything that has been canonically said about Chaos Control (many of which I quoted earlier)... therefore other possibilities must be considered. The vast majority of the evidence points to needing a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald for Chaos Control (it is all of those quotes and then some vs this one cutscene)

What I quoted Sonic Team and the Sonic characters saying clearly contradicts what you understand about not needing an Emerald (I guess its worth posting again, adding emphasis this time)...

-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006 cutscene

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gamechamp3000#p/c/7A0341B2BE90C555/15/bF9Vf_0jhkc

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile on Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/chara/shadow/index.html

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicAdventure2US-09.jpg

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SA2BGC_US_manual_0005.jpg

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Shadow profile in Sonic Heroes manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_Heroes_US_XBOX_Page_4.jpg

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Shadow profile in Sonic Rivals manual and on Rivals websites

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SRV_MAN_US_0006.jpg

http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicrivals/

http://sonicrivals.sega-europe.com/en/

For the love of god dude, stop throwing quotes every time someone suggests Shadow can use chaos control without an emerald. You're the only one who believes he can't, but stop trying to shove your point down everyone's throat.

[Diogenes]

But for that to be Chaos Control would be to completely contradict everything that has been canonically said about Chaos Control

Dude, look, here's the thing: it doesn't.

 

Being able to use Chaos Control with a Chaos Emerald does not preclude being able to use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald. Being able to use Chaos Control with or without an emerald does not make "can use Chaos Control with a Chaos Emerald" an inaccurate descriptor.

 

Stop posting fifty goddamn links to the same shit every time this comes up. You're not telling us anything we don't already know. And it's doing less to support your theory and more to make you look like a goddamn kook.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What I quoted Sonic Team and the Sonic characters saying clearly contradicts what you understand about not needing an Emerald (I guess its worth posting again, adding emphasis this time)...

Yeah? Well what I saw in Shadow's opening of Sonic 06,

proves me right. No, it is not something else. It is Chaos Control.

 

Cut the crap, will ya? You're probably the only person on this whole damn forum (or even other Sonic forums) that's so deadset on insisting that he needs a Chaos Emerald or else he can't do Chaos Control. News flash: He can use it without a Chaos Emerald.

 

And none of your references are going to make me believe in this "contradiction" you're claiming, because there is no contradiction to begin with.

Edited March 12, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

You know what, this is a bit debatable, maybe we should comeup with a good place to start, so how about this: we put together the stats we have from Sonic the fighters, then add the additional abilities, modified stats and characters after that

[Sparky]

Who's lying? I'm not, I'm quoting Sonic Team and the Sonic characters in their own words

Sorry about the misunderstanding. However in game elements are not always canon (gameplay/story separation)... as evidenced by how Amy had Espio's chameleon abilities in Sonic06 and how Shadow was able to pull out a Chaos Emerald before his team even collected one (an 8th Emerald?) in Sonic Heroes (for the Team Dark Team Blast) therefore in game elements don't prove changes to canon. Though Chaos Spear & such have never really been given any explanation, so I generally avoid them.

But for that to be Chaos Control would be to completely contradict everything that has been canonically said about Chaos Control (many of which I quoted earlier)... therefore other possibilities must be considered. The vast majority of the evidence points to needing a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald for Chaos Control (it is all of those quotes and then some vs this one cutscene)

What I quoted Sonic Team and the Sonic characters saying clearly contradicts what you understand about not needing an Emerald (I guess its worth posting again, adding emphasis this time)...

-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006 cutscene

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gamechamp3000#p/c/7A0341B2BE90C555/15/bF9Vf_0jhkc

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile on Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/chara/shadow/index.html

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicAdventure2US-09.jpg

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SA2BGC_US_manual_0005.jpg

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Shadow profile in Sonic Heroes manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_Heroes_US_XBOX_Page_4.jpg

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Shadow profile in Sonic Rivals manual and on Rivals websites

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SRV_MAN_US_0006.jpg

http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicrivals/

http://sonicrivals.sega-europe.com/en/

I count all abilities used in gameplay as canon, even Amy's invisibility (it's not like Espio's invisibility works like chameleon's camouflage)

Your forgetting that the Green Chaos Emerald that Shadow uses in his Team Blast is the same emerald his team gets in the first special stage (along with the white chaos emerald in Rail Canyon/Bullet Station). 

[Tani Coyote]

What about Villains vs. Villains?  

 

Well I handled one of those earlier in this thread, albeit between two demigods. Villains of more moderate power are always fun though!

 

I just realized how hard it is to find out who's superior out of Heroes vs. Heroes, as opposed to Heroes vs. Villains. I mean, there are so many different factors to take into account so it makes me wonder who really is the strongest.

 

Logical. Heroes are based off teamwork; their powers usually need to complement eachother or else it feels forced. Contrast to villains, who can stand on their own (and very often have much greater power at the start). I suppose it's a consequence that it's harder to compare heroes versus heroes and villains.

 

I count all abilities used in gameplay as canon, even Amy's invisibility (it's not like Espio's invisibility works like chameleon's camouflage)

 

Yes this. While we can't really establish what Shadow was doing in Riders from a canon perspective, I think it's safe to establish that he has limited use of his powers without emeralds. I suppose he's an artificial emerald in and of himself.

 

On his quotes in SA2: he was asleep for fifty years. He likely had memory loss, or hadn't really had much time to perfect his abilities. As someone who's more refined than Sonic in his approach, he presumably studied his powers in between games and made them more potent. He himself even shows his flaws at understanding when he says the techniques can't be used with fake emeralds; it shows how little he actually knows about the force he proclaims himself master of.

 

Not for example how come 06, he had a Chaos Lance and not just his Spear. Now it raises questions as to why his Spear no longer does damage when it did at first, but it's a point nonetheless. As for the game no longer being canon; it doesn't change the fact alternate timelines still show possibilities, even if they are no longer realised.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[NocturnalTwilight]

I really don't know who would win a fight between Shadow and Knuckles. If you take all their abilities from the games, comics, and Sonic X, it could possibly turn out to be equal. 

 

If you'll recall a STH issue, you'll see that (not sure how to word this...) Knuckles's Chaotic Possession (?), Enerjack. You'll see that Knuckles has quite an incredible amount of Chaos Powers, I know that it took Super Sonic to beat him, so that's a reason that makes me think it's possible that Knuckles may have the upper hand. 

 

But, there was an Episode of Sonic X where Knuckles and Shadow actually fought. It was very short, and kind of disappointing, since Knuckles is pretty much a fighting machine. I found it funny when Knuckles said he "always wanted to 'Shadow Box', ". 

 

But, I'm just throwing out things here, I really don't even have much of an idea or opinion on who would win. 

[Tani Coyote]

If you'll recall a STH issue, you'll see that (not sure how to word this...) Knuckles's Chaotic Possession (?), Enerjack. You'll see that Knuckles has quite an incredible amount of Chaos Powers, I know that it took Super Sonic to beat him, so that's a reason that makes me think it's possible that Knuckles may have the upper hand. 

Actually the match was a tie. Knuckles turned back to normal solely because Locke sacrificed himself. Based on the Dark Mobius reality, Enerjak is also superior to Super Sonic in capabilities. The emeralds are oddly both infinite yet measurable in power in the continuity; one can have more infinite power than another. ...Somehow.

 

But yes, across continuities it's less clear cut exactly how they'd interact. Presumably, as I've said before, Knuckles could drastically weaken Shadow by using that Master Emerald of his, though even that depends on how much of Shadow's capabilities stem from his Chaos powers. Will he start aging, become physically weak, etc. or will he just lose his cool light show?

 

[Burnt Ash]

Who's lying? I'm not, I'm quoting Sonic Team and the Sonic characters in their own words

Sorry about the misunderstanding. However in game elements are not always canon (gameplay/story separation)... as evidenced by how Amy had Espio's chameleon abilities in Sonic06 and how Shadow was able to pull out a Chaos Emerald before his team even collected one (an 8th Emerald?) in Sonic Heroes (for the Team Dark Team Blast) therefore in game elements don't prove changes to canon. Though Chaos Spear & such have never really been given any explanation, so I generally avoid them.

But for that to be Chaos Control would be to completely contradict everything that has been canonically said about Chaos Control (many of which I quoted earlier)... therefore other possibilities must be considered. The vast majority of the evidence points to needing a Chaos Emerald or fake Emerald for Chaos Control (it is all of those quotes and then some vs this one cutscene)

What I quoted Sonic Team and the Sonic characters saying clearly contradicts what you understand about not needing an Emerald (I guess its worth posting again, adding emphasis this time)...

-"It's not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" - Sonic in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." - Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 cutscene

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" - Shadow in Sonic 2006 cutscene

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gamechamp3000#p/c/7A0341B2BE90C555/15/bF9Vf_0jhkc

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile on Sonic Channel (translated using Google Translation)

http://sonic.sega.jp/SonicChannel/chara/shadow/index.html

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicAdventure2US-09.jpg

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" - Shadow profile in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SA2BGC_US_manual_0005.jpg

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds." - Shadow profile in Sonic Heroes manual

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic_Heroes_US_XBOX_Page_4.jpg

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." - Shadow profile in Sonic Rivals manual and on Rivals websites

http://info.sonicretro.org/File:SRV_MAN_US_0006.jpg

http://www2.sega.com/gamesite/sonicrivals/

http://sonicrivals.sega-europe.com/en/

See the problem here, is while Shadow can definitely use Chaos Emeralds to initiate Chaos Control, it is not implied that the Chaos Emeralds are required in order to use Chaos Control. For example, you posted some quotes from various Shadow profiles saying something along the lines of "Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds to use Chaos Control". Yes, it says that Chaos Control can be used for Chaos Control, but at the same time, given the wording of the quotes you collected, it doesn't imply anything about the usage of Chaos Control without the Chaos Emeralds. To be specific, take a look at the Sonic Adventure 2 Profile of Shadow you provided, ""Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds"". This quotation from SA2 claims that Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control. However, does it imply anything about the viability of Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds? Does it imply anything about Shadow's abilities without Chaos Control? It doesn't seem to have any further implications other than Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds using Chaos Emeralds. Furthermore, the state of when Shadow can use Chaos Control is further supplemented by examples ChaosSupremeSonic has given you, such as Shadow using Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald in Sonic 06. However, at the same time, this doesn't necessarily make for inconsistencies or contradictions, given that the quotes you provided don't imply nor outright states the viability of using Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds.