The Sonic Vs Thread.

[Tani Coyote]

See the problem here, is while Shadow can definitely use Chaos Emeralds to initiate Chaos Control, it is not implied that the Chaos Emeralds are required in order to use Chaos Control. For example, you posted some quotes from various Shadow profiles saying something along the lines of "Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds to use Chaos Control". Yes, it says that Chaos Control can be used for Chaos Control, but at the same time, given the wording of the quotes you collected, it doesn't imply anything about the usage of Chaos Control without the Chaos Emeralds. To be specific, take a look at the Sonic Adventure 2 Profile of Shadow you provided, ""Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds"". This quotation from SA2 claims that Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control. However, does it imply anything about the viability of Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds? Does it imply anything about Shadow's abilities without Chaos Control? It doesn't seem to have any further implications other than Shadow can use Chaos Emeralds using Chaos Emeralds. Furthermore, the state of when Shadow can use Chaos Control is further supplemented by examples ChaosSupremeSonic has given you, such as Shadow using Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald in Sonic 06. However, at the same time, this doesn't necessarily make for inconsistencies or contradictions, given that the quotes you provided don't imply nor outright states the viability of using Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds.

 

Excellent points. I think what all those passages really are trying to say is it's EASIER to do it with a Chaos Emerald. Logical... Shadow has his normal Chaos Lance abilities without emeralds, but with the emeralds it becomes strong enough to do damage to a god.

 

Chaos Control is presumably no different; it's likely just slower and less potent without the Emeralds. Shadow strikes me as the kind that was trying to be dramatic when he first used the attack anyway. He's not going to just leave the emerald on top of the robot for someone else to grab, so he may as well use it to show this newfound nemesis his superiority.

[NocturnalTwilight]

Actually the match was a tie. Knuckles turned back to normal solely because Locke sacrificed himself. Based on the Dark Mobius reality, Enerjak is also superior to Super Sonic in capabilities. The emeralds are oddly both infinite yet measurable in power in the continuity; one can have more infinite power than another. ...Somehow.

 

Okay, sorry about that. I really don't keep up with the Comics anymore, I know what you're talking about though, I have the issue.

 

But Enerjack being superior to Super Sonic? I dunno about that.

 

But this would be a good reason for that other topic on what would be so strong that Hyper Sonic would need to make a return. Right? ^^"

[Jolt_TH]

The emeralds are oddly both infinite yet measurable in power in the continuity; one can have more infinite power than another. ...Somehow.

In my head I can see the emeralds arguing like little kids

Red emerald: I have power times infinity!

Blue emerald: yeah well I have power times infinity and one!

Grey emerald: you both suck 'cause I have power times infinity times infinity!

[Blacklightning]

I think perhaps the analogy you could use for the capabilities of an emerald is a water tap. A tap that provides infinite water can be good for a lot of things, but for other purposes it's only as good as the pressure, and by consequence the rate at which it can spew water out. It's a very easy thing to underestimate until you stockpile them and end up with something more akin to a fire hose.

 

Likewise, while a Chaos Emerald can never truly be exhausted completely, its output isn't necessarily infinite. Like any old generator it's limited strictly by the amount of whatever generic measurement of power applicable it can dish out in a given period of time, and for the purposes of most of the cast a single one isn't usually enough unless you think smaller (such as Eggman's Phi models in Battle, which were apparently sustainable enough to run on single fragments of emerald). It's also implied they compliment each other in such a way that the increase when combined is a non-linear cumulative curve - it becomes disproportionately higher the more you combine for any given purpose. That much is displayed in SA1 when a seventh emerald makes all the difference to Chaos between a resilient asshole and a city-wrecking monstrosity, or in SA2 where four or so emeralds (refresh me on that, haven't played in ages) can blow up half a moon but it takes seven to theoretically wipe out Earth.

 

tl;dr, Chaos Emeralds are infinite, but within reason individually - it's when you mix them that their output simply starts to become irrationally high and all hell generally breaks loose.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Like a Reactor, you have to be careful how you manage them or else it risks a meltdown, rather?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Or too much power without restraint can become uncontrollable? Think how Sari from Transformers Animated acted after she infused herself with her Key's Allspark Energy. She eventually lost control and caused a lot of damage, though granted she was aware of what was going on, just no control.

[Tani Coyote]

But Enerjack being superior to Super Sonic? I dunno about that.

 

Well, presumably the Knuckles Enerjak of the prime universe and Dark Enerjak were more or less equal in power when they tangoed with Super Sonic. Dark Enerjak won that one, though the details are left vague; you never see Sonic's Prelate so Sega was likely very protective of how the story could go.

 

Granted, based on Flynn's blog, Dark Enerjak is the result of Chaos Knuckles amplifying his power even further with the Emeralds. So he's probably a bit stronger than the Knuckles Enerjak of the Prime universe.

 

I just presume he made use of the Master Emerald in some way to make Sonic weak and then tore his soul right from his body. Flawless, victory!

 

In my head I can see the emeralds arguing like little kids

Red emerald: I have power times infinity!

Blue emerald: yeah well I have power times infinity and one!

Grey emerald: you both suck 'cause I have power times infinity times infinity!

 

Would be amusing!

 

in SA2 where four or so emeralds (refresh me on that, haven't played in ages) can blow up half a moon but it takes seven to theoretically wipe out Earth.

 

It was six. Eggman's emerald, the one Shadow stole, the one Rouge acquired, and the three stolen from GUN. It kicked off the subplot to steal Tails' emerald.

 

tl;dr, Chaos Emeralds are infinite, but within reason individually - it's when you mix them that their output simply starts to become irrationally high and all hell generally breaks loose.

 

I like this idea actually. Infinite fuel but the output is still limited... thanks for this! It actually makes a lot of sense now!

 

Like a Reactor, you have to be careful how you manage them or else it risks a meltdown, rather?

 

It's really sad they never had the emeralds show a more destructive side in the games. X has them causing machinery to malfunction, StC had it so too much will drive you nuts, Archie has it so too much can also taint you, etc.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Jolt_TH]

or in SA2 where four or so emeralds (refresh me on that, haven't played in ages) can blow up half a moon but it takes seven to theoretically wipe out Earth.

I always assumed it was because

1) Earth is bigger

2) it only blew up half the moon

3) seven would make the canon recharge instantly, meaning it could fire instantly

Edited March 15, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Tani Coyote]

I always assumed it was because

1) Earth is bigger

2) it only blew up half the moon

3) seven would make the canon recharge instantly, meaning it could fire instantly

 

Hmm, good points. Earth is a much larger target so six isn't that adequate. Instant firing power also is a huge benefit, because for all we know the President was organising a GUN strike force to attack and take the Colony. That sort of instant attack capability's usefulness cannot be understated.

[Jolt_TH]

Well not only that but Shadow states (after Eggman's ultimatum):
 

SHADOW: At this rate, the cannon will take too much time to charge up. If you
        want to unleash its full potential, you'll need all seven Chaos
        Emeralds.

 

So im guessing the blast that shot at the moon was pretty much all of the power in the cannon, it WAS like 50 years worth of charging time!!

 

ANYWAY back on topic, I wonder what it would be like to have Silver vs Blaze? one's a pyrokinetic, ones a Psychokietic. Silver can control objects with his powers but could he control elements? I remember in Archie i think its Ixus Ngus uses a fre spell on him, and he doesnt seem to be able to stop it. now this begs the question. CAN Silver control elements, like Water and Fire? or was it because the fire in said scenario was magic?

Blaze herself does have a fair bit of speed and agility on her side aswell as the aforementioned pyrokinetic powers. Neither charachter is particularly strong and both are smart enough to use their surroundings to their advantage.

[Tani Coyote]

I wonder what it would be like to have Silver vs Blaze? one's a pyrokinetic, ones a Psychokietic. Silver can control objects with his powers but could he control elements? I remember in Archie i think its Ixus Ngus uses a fre spell on him, and he doesnt seem to be able to stop it. now this begs the question. CAN Silver control elements, like Water and Fire? or was it because the fire in said scenario was magic?

Well the out of canon explanation is likely that since Silver was able to pretty much smack Enerjak around when no one else could, Ian Flynn had to cook up some way for Silver to have a weakness. Because otherwise there's the implication he's pretty much the strongest character. It seems odd Silver was able to control chaos energy and not fire. Naugus may have just gotten the jump on him while Silver was gloating.

 

Silver's power is probably ultimately more flexible; Blaze is limited to fire. Silver likely could cause fires indirectly with his powers, or really manipulate any element. In retrospect it's no wonder Blaze was made fun of by most psychics, since being limited to one element is actually a bit of a weakness. If they fight near a body of water Silver could probably douse her with a flick of the wrist and that's that.

[Jolt_TH]

But it could also go along the same lines as good at lots master of none

Blaze in undoubtedly master of her ability while silver is still naive, sure he could probably cause fires, doesn't mean he knows how to. He also could be good at manipulating loads of elements, but not a master at any of them.

The other thing about silver is he seems to only be able to affect while bodies if an object, so it seems he would only be able to pick up the whole body of water or fire ect, while this would undoubtedly be handy, I'd imagine would take much more effort than picking up say a few rocks or cars taking up his energy faster

[Tani Coyote]

Hmm... well, all things considered, I really don't know with those two.

 

Now for another case of continuities collide! Thinking of a conflict that I will inevitably play up in my webcomic someday, I present:

 

Snively (Archie/SatAM) versus Grimer (Sonic the Comic).

 

Snively's fiercely hateful of Robotnik and plans to overthrow him at every opportunity, whereas Grimer's the opposite and up until the comic's end was fiercely loyal to him. Even after resigning from Robotnik's employ Grimer nonetheless engineered the ruining of Sonic's reputation as a last act of service.

 

Both of them are technological geniuses, assisting Robotnik in one way or another in both continuities. Assuming for some reason they ever were together in the same universe... who would win? He who views Robotnik as a buffoon, or he who views Robotnik as the greatest genius Mobius has ever seen?

[Sega DogTagz]

 I remember in Archie i think its Ixus Ngus uses a fre spell on him, and he doesnt seem to be able to stop it

 

Well lets hang an asterisk on that one. If I'm not mistaken, Nagus "ignites the fire" around Silver. He doesn't use a flamethrower tactic (which would obviously give Silver a chance to throw it back - if he could).

 

The interesting thing to note here, is that thanks to Sonic Rush, we know Blaze can pull off a similar trick by spawning pillars of flame from under a characters feet...

[Tani Coyote]

The interesting thing to note here, is that thanks to Sonic Rush, we know Blaze can pull off a similar trick by spawning pillars of flame from under a characters feet...

 

The barrier between Chaos powers, magic powers, and psychic powers is really hard to determine at times.

 

I think they all have root differences in where their power draws from but ultimately will end up looking the same on the surface. Kind of like alkhestry and alchemy in FullMetal Alchemist.

[Blacklightning]

Silver's power is probably ultimately more flexible; Blaze is limited to fire. Silver likely could cause fires indirectly with his powers, or really manipulate any element. In retrospect it's no wonder Blaze was made fun of by most psychics, since being limited to one element is actually a bit of a weakness. If they fight near a body of water Silver could probably douse her with a flick of the wrist and that's that.

Now wait up a minute there. Have you ever tried extinguishing a burning person by throwing water at them? It's a lot harder than you might think. You'd essentially require a watertight grip to even get as far as lifting it, otherwise it'd just scatter and drip all over the place shortly after you try. When you think of it from the perspective of how liquids work in zero gravity, telekinesis can't possibly be terribly different in that regard. It's also forgetting that even if there had been some arbitary vessel appropriate for the task, if his '06 fights have taught us anything it's that he's a complete sitting duck in the time it takes to prepare something like that. Blaze could just boost through his shit in the time it takes to get ready.

 

Here's the other killing factor: Blaze's flames are really hot. Really, really fucking hot. It's the kind of fire that can easily destroy solid steel, and can stay lit whilst completely submerged with no detrimental effects whatsoever (no seriously, play a water level in Sonic Rush as Blaze. I'll wait). If you tried negating her powers just by dumping water on her, she'd fuckin' laugh at you. On top of that, Silver's powers, while admittedly quite potent in their own right, are incredibly context sensitive, so any chance of a victory on his part depends entirely on the environment... so god help him if he happens to fight in some barren desert or plain with absolutely nothing to crush people with.

[Sparky]

Now wait up a minute there. Have you ever tried extinguishing a burning person by throwing water at them? It's a lot harder than you might think. You'd essentially require a watertight grip to even get as far as lifting it, otherwise it'd just scatter and drip all over the place shortly after you try. When you think of it from the perspective of how liquids work in zero gravity, telekinesis can't possibly be terribly different in that regard. It's also forgetting that even if there had been some arbitary vessel appropriate for the task, if his '06 fights have taught us anything it's that he's a complete sitting duck in the time it takes to prepare something like that. Blaze could just boost through his shit in the time it takes to get ready.

 

Here's the other killing factor: Blaze's flames are really hot. Really, really fucking hot. It's the kind of fire that can easily destroy solid steel, and can stay lit whilst completely submerged with no detrimental effects whatsoever (no seriously, play a water level in Sonic Rush as Blaze. I'll wait). If you tried negating her powers just by dumping water on her, she'd fuckin' laugh at you. On top of that, Silver's powers, while admittedly quite potent in their own right, are incredibly context sensitive, so any chance of a victory on his part depends entirely on the environment... so god help him if he happens to fight in some barren desert or plain with absolutely nothing to crush people with.

Well, Silver does have Psychic Knife and Psycho Shock. 

[Kuzu]

Well, Silver does have Psychic Knife and Psycho Shock. 

 

And Blaze can make fire towers outta nothing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If Silver's introduction in Sonic 06 says anything, he can blow away supernatural flames from powerful creatures such as the Iblis...just figured I'd bring that to mind...

[Tani Coyote]

Now wait up a minute there. Have you ever tried extinguishing a burning person by throwing water at them? It's a lot harder than you might think. You'd essentially require a watertight grip to even get as far as lifting it, otherwise it'd just scatter and drip all over the place shortly after you try. When you think of it from the perspective of how liquids work in zero gravity, telekinesis can't possibly be terribly different in that regard. It's also forgetting that even if there had been some arbitary vessel appropriate for the task, if his '06 fights have taught us anything it's that he's a complete sitting duck in the time it takes to prepare something like that. Blaze could just boost through his shit in the time it takes to get ready.

 

Here's the other killing factor: Blaze's flames are really hot. Really, really fucking hot. It's the kind of fire that can easily destroy solid steel, and can stay lit whilst completely submerged with no detrimental effects whatsoever (no seriously, play a water level in Sonic Rush as Blaze. I'll wait). If you tried negating her powers just by dumping water on her, she'd fuckin' laugh at you. On top of that, Silver's powers, while admittedly quite potent in their own right, are incredibly context sensitive, so any chance of a victory on his part depends entirely on the environment... so god help him if he happens to fight in some barren desert or plain with absolutely nothing to crush people with.

 

I admit I don't really know much about Blaze barring the basics since I've never played anything besides 06 and Generations with her in it. Thanks for giving some more background, however!

 

If Silver's introduction in Sonic 06 says anything, he can blow away supernatural flames from powerful creatures such as the Iblis...just figured I'd bring that to mind...

 

Though this makes me think the trophy still goes to Silver by other means. If he can beat a demigod (with advanced fire powers) I'm afraid the ordinary joe's got a snowball's chance in Hades of emerging victorious here.

 

I mean of course one could possibly argue that psychokinetic and magical flames have different properties but come on.

[Sparky]

If Silver's introduction in Sonic 06 says anything, he can blow away supernatural flames from powerful creatures such as the Iblis...just figured I'd bring that to mind...

Now that I think about it, if 06!Silver has been fighting against Iblis (the Flames of Disaster) for years, and even in the rebooted timeline, He's fought the fire monster, Ifrit in Rivals 2, then I'm sure he has the power to deal with a pyrokinetic cat.

[Tani Coyote]

Now that I think about it, if 06!Silver has been fighting against Iblis (the Flames of Disaster) for years, and even in the rebooted timeline, He's fought the fire monster, Ifrit in Rivals 2, then I'm sure he has the power to deal with a pyrokinetic cat.

 

Yeah... let's face it. Across continuities the guy tangoes with demigods without any assistance from emeralds. He fights either Iblis/Ifrit in the games, Enerjak in the Archie strip, or Super Sonic in the Fleetway continuity.

 

I hate to say it but I think Silver in some aspects is the most powerful character across continuities. Sonic and Shadow generally need emeralds to reach the level of power he's been shown/implied to have.

 

Really it's a good thing he's a good guy and can be kind of a ditz, otherwise he might be very scary.

[Sparky]

Yeah... let's face it. Across continuities the guy tangoes with demigods without any assistance from emeralds. He fights either Iblis/Ifrit in the games, Enerjak in the Archie strip, or Super Sonic in the Fleetway continuity.

 

I hate to say it but I think Silver in some aspects is the most powerful character across continuities. Sonic and Shadow generally need emeralds to reach the level of power he's been shown/implied to have.

 

Really it's a good thing he's a good guy and can be kind of a ditz, otherwise he might be very scary.

If he was a genius villian, all he'd have to do is psychokinetically choke you/your brain/your heart. 

[-blank-]

If he was a genius villian, all he'd have to do is psychokinetically choke you/your brain/your heart. 

He'd be a force to reckon with indeed.

[Blacklightning]

Yeah... let's face it. Across continuities the guy tangoes with demigods without any assistance from emeralds.

It's kind of unfair to state this as a positive side to your argument when there aren't many characters out there that can't do this. Hell, depending on which side of the canon you choose to believe, Blaze is implied to have been by his side for all the occasions they put up with Iblis's shit, so it's not like Silver gets any high ground out of doing the same. At that, in spite of his power he's a pretty blatant glass cannon, and his abilities are all easily exploited by any combination of 1) staying out of grabbing distance, 2) being a moving target 3) hitting while his meter's recharging and/or unable to grab any further objects 4) confronting him in an environment that has little to nothing in the way of moveable objects, or 5) attacking with an intangible medium that can't simply be thrown back, open flames being one of them (Iblis's attacks are based more on magma than fire, before somebody brings it up).

 

That all being said, the majority of Silver's abilties are context based, so if Blaze fought him in a junkyard or something he would probably rape her shit horribly. In the end I think it's safe to say that there's really no unbiased way to determine a possible superiority of one over the other, because there's no controlled environment that doesn't favour one character or the other. Which is a crying fucking shame, because I like arguments to be definitive. =\