The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[Tornado]

That depends on what you mean by international laws. The world at large has already shown that it doesn't give a shit about China's treatment of its own citizens, to the extent that they let China on the United Nations Human Rights Council after reforming half a decade ago explicitly to keep countries like China off it, so another Tienanmen Square massacre would probably be ignored after a few months. I think the biggest thing China can do that would get a major international furor against them is take a hardline stance against Tibet or Taiwan (by which I mean invading and purging dissidents, which China has threatened against Taiwan already anyway). I don't think China will back North Korea to any extent that it will make governments bail on it, so that's not on the table either.

[Tani Coyote]

During both World Wars, the cutoff of global manufacturing caused poorer countries to develop their own industries to provide. In terms of manufacturing China's lack of business would hurt at first but there's no shortage of cheap labor to exploit elsewhere. The fact is China simply has more cheap labor than anyone else, and a SINGLE set of laws governing all 1.5 billion or so potential laborers. It's just lucrative to do business with China as a result, rather than having one plant governed by regulations in this country, another governed by different regulations in another, etc.

 

Ultimately it is DEMAND that will control economics, and that is what the United States, Europe and other developed countries have. We could easily replace China with a few years of economic restructuring, but good luck replacing the US or Europe's consumer bases in that span of time. It takes decades to come even close to a developed world style of living and consumption. As soon as China shuts itself off to trade, our investors are just going to build plants in some other country that's willing to play ball.

 

As for resources that's not as clear cut, but China's power is in manufacturing, which is easily shifted elsewhere.

 

This just highlights why China'd be hesitant to fully back North Korea if it could find some way out of it. It's not going to risk losing the world's markets over such a miniscule economy.

 

Kinda ironic seeing as the US does the same thing as Russia you're like a Brother and Sister that fights over a toy.

 

I think our antagonism with Russia's pretty much ended. We don't really care about them anymore. We're more focused on China, Iran, North Korea, the Middle East, etc.

 

Russia seems to insist on continuing the Cold War to score brownie points with its populace, though. The country easily could have been working towards EU membership these last two decades but continues to try and be the underdog instead.

 

Same reason the USA could collapse tomorrow and we'd be no closer to some sort of economic union with Canada and Mexico, I suppose.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

EDIT: As for the US exploiting cheap labour they look to their South American Cousins for that. But when it comes to rare minerals countries like China and Russia have it by the bucket loads and they know this.

While it's not as big as China, the US has it's own mines of rare earth metals that it can use to break that bargaining chip China has if they ever got around to using it.

 

Just figured I'd bring that up. (Need to find the source tho, I think it was PopSci or Times...)

[Tani Coyote]

Ultimately economics is the result of each country pursuing its advantages. There are often distortions due to government meddling, but generally things will drift towards where it would be most efficient for them to be produced. China has the population base, cheap investment costs, and largest single market for manufacturing, so it ends up being the hub of manufacturing.

 

This also has the political implications of making China dependent on the rest of the world for raw materials and markets for its goods. If China decided it was time to saber rattle, they'd find the US Navy, the world's strongest, doing its part to block ships in and out of the country. Their economy would grind to a halt. While we'd suffer shocks as well, we'd still be able to adjust and find other places to import from, as happened to the Latin American nations during the World Wars. China wouldn't be able to find a new market for its goods, as a contrast. It simply has nothing to gain from saber rattling with the US and its allies.

 

As such, while they'll promise to protect North Korea, naturally they're doing all they can to avoid actually doing so. They've told North Korea it's on its own if it attacks, and even in the case of a defensive war, China's still trying to keep them on a leash; it doesn't want to disrupt the good flow of business over some stupid irredentist tripe.

[Stacy]

I think our antagonism with Russia's pretty much ended. We don't really care about them anymore. We're more focused on China, Iran, North Korea, the Middle East, etc.

 

Russia seems to insist on continuing the Cold War to score brownie points with its populace, though. The country easily could have been working towards EU membership these last two decades but continues to try and be the underdog instead.

 

You're acting like the US hasn't put fuel on the fire with continuing the Missile Defence Program in Europe not to mention trying to block Russia for influencing its former Eastern Bloc allies. As well as increasing NATO world influence and interfering in its Affairs.

 

In short I think Russia don't want to be the United States bitch. If the US steps on them they will step back and it is a vicious cycle. 

That depends on what you mean by international laws. The world at large has already shown that it doesn't give a shit about China's treatment of its own citizens, to the extent that they let China on the United Nations Human Rights Council after reforming half a decade ago explicitly to keep countries like China off it, so another Tienanmen Square massacre would probably be ignored after a few months. I think the biggest thing China can do that would get a major international furor against them is take a hardline stance against Tibet or Taiwan (by which I mean invading and purging dissidents, which China has threatened against Taiwan already anyway). I don't think China will back North Korea to any extent that it will make governments bail on it, so that's not on the table either.

 

You also forgot China's beef with Japan over boarder disputes. I would never rule out the possibly of a war between US and China somewhere down the line even if is another shady Cold War. 

 

Hell, imagine a three-way war between Russia, China and the US if that would happen I get a concrete steel bunker If I were you. 

[Badnik Zero]

They've told North Korea it's on its own if it attacks, and even in the case of a defensive war, China's still trying to keep them on a leash; it doesn't want to disrupt the good flow of business over some stupid irredentist tripe.

 

I'm sorry for stopping the topic but I have never seen someone use irredentist in a sentence before. Also I had an irredentist once, and the best part about it was he put my teeth all back where they used to be.

[Tani Coyote]

I'm sorry for stopping the topic but I have never seen someone use irredentist in a sentence before. Also I had an irredentist once, and the best part about it was he put my teeth all back where they used to be.

 

 

Basically it refers to the ideology that one country should be able to annex territory because of some prior claim to it. I think both Koreas have made it clear by this point they'd love to control the whole peninsula and be the true Korea, albeit they have very different ideas on how such a thing should be completed.

 

By this point in time I think South Korea's more or less abandoned the idea, because why would they want to take in a poverty-stricken country and spend all the money developing it to match the rest of the nation? North Korea probably has too out of practicality, but they like to keep up appearances...

[Badnik Zero]

Wait no I was making a joke... Because irredentism is about populating an area where you used to be...

[Autosaver]

North Korea "defeats" US troops and takes 150k Americans hostage.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Lol...troll harder North Korea.

We should keep doing the military drills just to fuck with them and hope they strike first.

[Johnny Boy]

Come on Launch those damn missiles already!

[Patticus]

That video is absolutely hilarious. Bravo, North Korea!

[Tornado]

North Korea couldn't successfully invade a 7-Eleven in South Korea with helicopter-based paratroopers.

[McGroose]

This is some grade A bullshit you've got going here North Korea. Good job.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm starving, and I haven't eaten any birds in a while. 

Edited March 25, 2013 by McGroose

[Tani Coyote]

I'm with CSS here. Let's keep doing drills.

 

They're gonna end up being Iraq'd if they go to war, and if nothing else the look on the North Korean people's faces when the world's most powerful army is defeated will be priceless.

[SonikkuForever]

North Korea is truly a hellish, dystopian place for most of its' citizens. There are outdoor speakers in most villages that cannot be turned off. Their purpose is to glorify the regime and brainwash the people with a constant barrage of propaganda. And as I mentioned before, people who have expressed even the most minor criticisms of the regime are imprisoned, along with their extended families, in massive prison camps. Some of these camps are absolutely massive - two of them are each larger than the District of Columbia. Surrounding each of them is 10-foot-high barbed-wire fencing along with land mines and man traps. There are even a batteries of anti-aircraft guns to prevent liberation by airborne troops. And behind those fences, unimaginable horrors are taking place, including human experimentation.

 

The following are first-hand accounts from guards, scientists, and prisoners. They are rather old, but there is no reason to believe that the regime has stopped testing its weapons on prisoners, so I'm assuming that similar horrors are continuing to occur as we speak.

 

      We’ll start with a defector known as Dr. Kim. He was one of three research scientists working with the blessing of North Korea's leader and its all powerful Workers Party. While serving the regime, he developed a chemical weapon called NP100, cyanide mixed with another compound. Dr. Kim says that the chemical “…is for killing people. First it paralyses the central nervous system, then the blood coagulates, then the heart stops, then mental disorder comes. These were the medical effects we witnessed.” Kim and his colleagues “witnessed” these effects while testing the compound on political prisoners. Here, Kim describes the gas chambers where the experiments took place:

 

“The front, side and ceiling are made of glass. Here is a glass window, which you can open and close. When the prisoners arrived they looked half dead, due to torture and malnutrition. The victims were sat on a small mat, right here. The injection tube is installed in the cubicle. When we press the button on the machine the compressor injects gas into the cubicle which is sealed airtight. Through this pipe gas is being injected.” Party officials could observe the process. “I was in front, then the victim was sitting on the mat. The victim was like someone put inside a bottle. When the gas is applied to humans, a vapour forms on the skin and they become itchy, then they had difficulty breathing, and began to groan and shout.” One purpose of this experiment was to examine the victim's mental state. Kim continues: “We would ask him questions to determine his state of mind. We kept him talking. My question was, "are you hungry?" he could not answer. We watched him dying. He answered the other researchers. By the time he came to my question he was barely audible. The first one took three and half hours to die. The second victim took two and half hours.”

 

        Kwon Hyuk, a defector who was the former head of security at the infamous prison Camp 22, corroborates this, claiming that it is not uncommon for three or four people, normally a family (and that includes children), to be the experimental subjects. After undergoing medical checks, the chambers are sealed and poison is injected through a tube, while scientists observe. In a report reminiscent of an earlier account of a family of seven, Kwon says:

 

“I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber. The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.”

 

He explains how he had believed this treatment was justified. “At the time, I felt that they thoroughly deserved such a death. Because all of us were led to believe that all the bad things that were happening to North Korea were their fault; that we were poor, divided and not making progress as a country. It would be a total lie for me to say I feel sympathetic about the children dying such a painful death. Under the society and the regime I was in at the time, I only felt that they were the enemies. So I felt no sympathy or pity for them at all.”

 

Dr. Kim, however, now regrets his past. When asked why he participated in such gruesome experiments, he said that

 

“In a country like North Korea, when the state tells you what to do, you are supposed to follow orders. Now when I think of the death of that political prisoner, I feel like a war criminal. The purpose of this experiment was to determine how long it takes for a human being to die when X amount of gas is put into X Cubic metres of space. Since this was for military purposes we wanted to determine how much gas is necessary to annihilate the whole city of Seoul.”

 

 

Ahn Myung Chul was a former prison guard at the Camp 22 before defecting. When shown satellite imagery of the camp for an interview by NBC, he was able to point out the buildings and what they were for. He points to a building, saying

 

“This is the detention center. If someone goes inside this building, in three months he will be dead or disabled for life. In this corner they decided about the executions, who to execute and whether to make it public.” Pointing to another spot, he said: “This is the garbage pond where the two kids were killed when guards kicked them in pond.”

 

Ahn saw firsthand the horrors of human experimentation.

 

“Everyone knows about chemical weapons testing. I saw political prisoners being transported. My commanding officer said, "They are the people you are going to guard for ten years. If they attempt to escape or resist you can kill them. Several of them will go for human experimentation. If you help them escape, you will share their fate."

 

He goes on to say that other prisoners were used for "medical operation practice" for young doctors. According to him, these doctors would practice surgeries on prisoners without anesthesia. There were also deliberate efforts to study physical resistance by starving prisoners to death. But some of his most awful memories are about the dreaded black government van known as “the crow”. 

 

“When the Third Bureau is running out of subjects, a black van known as "the crow" turns up and picks out a few more prisoners, sowing panic among the rest. The crow comes about once a month and takes forty or fifty people off to an unknown destination. The people who carry out these executions and these experiments all drink before they do it. But they are real experts now; sometimes they hit prisoners with a hammer, on the back of the head. The poor prisoners then lose their memory, and they use them as zombies for target practice."

 

According to Ahn, even prisoners that were not to be used for experimentation were often beaten to death for the enjoyment of the guards.

 

“I heard many times that eyeballs were taken out by beating. And I saw that by beating the person the muscle was damaged and the bone was exposed, outside, and they put salt on the wounded part. At the beginning I was frightened when I witnessed it, but it was repeated again and again, so my feelings were paralyzed.”

 

Moreover, beating and killing prisoners was not only tolerated, it was encouraged and even rewarded.

 

“They trained me not to treat the prisoners as human beings. If someone is against socialism, if someone tries to escape from prison, then kill him. If there’s a record of killing any escapee then the guard will be entitled to study in the college. Because of that some guards kill innocent people.”

 

I end this extremely long post with testimony from Soon Ok Lee. She wasn’t an officer, but she was imprisoned for seven years at a camp near Kaechon in Pyungbuk province before she managed to escape the prison and flee to Seoul. When interviewed, she described the things she saw.

 

“I was in prison from 1987 till January 1993. Hundreds of people became victims of biochemical testing.” Once, she recalls; “an officer ordered me to select 50 healthy female prisoners. One of the guards handed me a basket full of soaked cabbage, told me not to eat it but to give it to the 50 women. I gave them out and heard a scream from those who had eaten them. They were all screaming and vomiting blood. All who ate the cabbage leaves started violently vomiting blood and screaming with pain. It was hell. In less than 20 minutes they were quite dead. Looking at that scene, I lost my mind. Was this reality or a nightmare? And then I screamed and was sent out of the auditorium. I saw so many poor victims. I saw the research supervisors — they were enjoying the effect of biochemical weapons, effective beyond their expectations — they were saying they were successful.”

 

Lee also has traumatic memories of the forced abortions she witnessed.

 

“[The women] were forced to abort their children. They put salty water into the pregnant women’s womb with a large syringe, in order to kill the baby even when the woman was 8 months or 9 months pregnant. And then, from time to time there a living infant is delivered. And then if someone delivers a live infant, then the guards kick the bloody baby and kill it. And I saw an infant who was crying with pain. I have to express this in words, that I witnessed such an inhumane hell.”

 

 

 

 

So, how long is the world going to turn a blind eye and allow this to continue?

[Tani Coyote]

Screw the Godwin, I'm going there.

These experiments are on par with Dr. Mengele's in how horrible they are. The complacency of the staff with it on the basis of the victims being enemies of the country (and not just the regime) has shivering parallels to how so many were complacent in Hitler's ideology because they thought all his targets had actually cost Germany the first war. And the world caring more about its nuclear program than any of the atrocities is no different than how so few cared about what the Third Reich was doing to its people until they invaded Poland (and even then most were solely concerned about Germany's military capabilities, not its enormous human rights abuses).

Even China shouldn't be backing them; China may not be a completely free country but it has made great strides in social and economic progress, with the quality of life steadily rising to a point that the party's monopoly on power isn't really a big issue. Only the most outspoken critics of the regime in China really need to fear reprisal, whereas in North Korea it seems the slightest violation of the law is treated as if you just sold plans to the enemy.

Really, this cements my belief we should try to goad North Korea even further, while also working to undermine them from behind the scenes. I wouldn't be surprised if we could cut some sort of closed doors deal with China to sell the DPRK down the river; North Korea's bad for business and bad for its image.

[Frogging101]

Reading that has reaffirmed my belief that this regime needs to fucking die and the sooner it does, the better. I really hope the DPRK try something stupid, so we have a justification for obliterating them.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Frogging101

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As much as I want them to strike first, I seriously don't want that first strike to be a nuke. But that's probably hoping for too much considering that they've outright stated that option as a first strike.

 

Either way, the sooner they make the first move, the better we wipe it off the map and give their people something better than what they're going through.

[Tani Coyote]

If there's a war, many die. If there's not a war, many still die, just on one side.

 

Sounds like both aren't exactly wonderful options.

 

In the end, however, the collapse of the DPRK will serve the greater good. South Korea's a liberal democracy and will pick up the pieces well. Whereas we hold up many dictatorships on the basis of personal interest, this is a rare case where American interest and democracy are side by side.

[Kareemadeem]

North Korea threatens Guam, Hawaii, rest of U.S.

 

North Korea, which has missiles capable of hitting U.S. territories in the Pacific and possibly mainland USA, has ordered its rocket and long-range artillery units to be combat ready after joint military drills by U.S. and South Korean forces. A look at the Koreas and the military presence and threat:

• 

 

Analysts say it's time for China to get tough on its ally.

BEIJING -- China may be reaching the point that it may have to take concrete steps to calm its ally North Korea, which on Tuesday threatened strikes targeting Guam, Hawaii and the U.S. mainland, analysts say.

 

China's foreign policy team under recently installed President Xi Jinping "could be more tough on North Korea, as they are more irresponsible in their rhetoric and that will hurt China's interests," said Shen Dingli, an international relations expert and North Korea watcher at Shanghai's Fudan University.

 

"We have to teach North Korea a lesson, but not to further the trend of instability spiraling. We need to punish them, without exciting them," he said.

 

North Korea on Tuesday said it was putting its long-range rocket units on the highest possible combat-posture level following what is says are provocations from the United States.

 

The U.S. military and the South Korean military have been conducting regularly scheduled drills on land this month. The Pentagon says at least one B-52 bomber was flown over South Korea.

 

NORTH KOREA PROVOCATIONS: The North has attacked many times over decades

 

On Tuesday, the North Korean army's Supreme Command said it will take "practical military action" to protect national sovereignty and its leadership in response to what it called U.S. and South Korean plots to attack.

 

"From this moment, the Supreme Command of the Korean People's Army will be putting in combat duty posture No. 1 all field artillery units including long-range artillery units strategic rocket units that will target all enemy object in U.S. invasionary bases," the KCNA news agency said.

 

The North Korean military statement referred to the B-52 flights as a provocation. The Pentagon said it is confident that it can handle any military capabilities that the regime of Kim Jong Un can come up with.

 

"The U.S. is fully capable of defending ourselves and our allies against an attack" by North Korea, Pentagon spokesman Lt. Jack Miller said. "We are firmly committed to defending the Republic of Korea and Japan."

 

The Pentagon and South Korean military on Friday signed a new plan to defend the country against possible attack. The plan was developed after North Korea shelled South Korea's Yeonpyeong Island in 2010, killing four people and destroying dozens of homes.

 

The North Korean statement came on the third anniversary of a North Korean torpedo attack on a South Korean warship that killed 46 South Korean sailors. North Korea denies the warship sinking.

 

The two Koreas have clashed repeatedly in recent years and North Korea has vowed in the past to turn Seoul into a "sea of fire." North Korea has expressed anger over recent joint military drills by the U.S. and South Korea and crippling United Nations-endorsed sanctions in the wake of the North's Feb. 12 nuclear test.

 

The United States and its allies should respond to the latest North Korean threats by urging China to restrain its ally before the situation escalates, a former U.S. intelligence official says.

 

U.S. diplomats should talk to their Chinese counterparts and say "your ally North Korea is acting in a very belligerent and destabilizing way," said Richard Bush, an East Asia specialist at the National Intelligence Council under President Clinton who now heads the Brookings Institution Center for Northeast Asian Policy Studies. "They're acting in ways that are contrary to the principals you (China) have laid out. The situation is somewhat dangerous. You need to restrain your ally."

 

The country has made nuclear threats against the U.S. and its allies in the past. But North Korea doesn't have the capability to strike U.S. bases in Hawaii, Guam or the U.S. mainland with long-range missiles, says James Hardy, Asia Pacific Editor for IHSJane's Defense Weekly.

 

"From what we know of its existing inventory, North Korea has short- and medium-range missiles that could complicate a situation on the Korean Peninsula and perhaps reach Japan," he said.

 

"They're empty threats," Bush said.

 

However, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton said the risk to the U.S. is that the North is an irrational regime capable of starting a war that could drag in the United States.

 

"It shows why the continuation of the regime itself is a problem" he told Fox News "You have to take this kind of thing seriously."

 

Bolton, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute who served under President George W, Bush, says the Obama administration needs to work toward a more robust missile-defense system and do more to implement U.S. policy, which is to change the North's regime by a peaceful reunification of the two Koreas.

 

While North Korea is unlikely to launch a nuclear attack, it may conduct a limited conventional one at South Korea that could lead to an escalating series of retaliations that could get out of hand, Bush said. That's because South Korea's new president, Park Geun Hye, declared her country's new policy is to respond to such attacks in the future by destroying the units that launched the attack.

 

"But a retaliation of the kind South Korea is contemplating increases the risk that North Korea would counter-retaliate," Bush said,. "It has the potential of an escalatory vicious circle. That's something the USA, South Korea and China understand."

 

China is the North's only significant ally, and major supplier of fuel and food, but several Chinese academics have called on Beijing in recent months to adopt a tougher stance due to Pyongyang's utter disregard for Chinese concerns over its nuclear and long-range missile programs.

 

The North's recent threats are seen partly by some experts as efforts to strengthen internal loyalty to young leader Kim Jong Un and to build up his military credentials.

 

Kim "needs to show he has the guts. The best way to do that is to use the military might that he commands," said Lee Yoon Gyu, a North Korea expert at Korea National Defense University in Seoul. "This paves the way for greater praise for him if North Korea makes a provocation later and claims victory."

 

China's foreign ministry issued a statement on Tuesday for all sides in the Korean peninsula to exercise restraint. The threats "are nothing new, they just want attention," said Shen at Fudan University. "The U.S. is ready to intercept any incoming missiles anyway. Don't let North Korea think that their threats get any reward," or they will threaten more, he said.

 

Contributing: Kim Hjelmgaard in London, Associated Press

 

What's the latest news on Japan's radar system? 

[Tani Coyote]

With the distance and technology involved, I'm likewise of the belief their threats against the US are unfounded. India and Pakistan have had nuclear weapons for decades, and yet they still can only cover Asia. It's a misconception to assume "nuclear weapon" means "American or Russian-quality ICBM."

 

They could most certainly rain nuclear fire on South Korea and Japan, but with sufficient missile defense systems I'm of the opinion we could negate this. Missile defense is considered illegitimate only because the technology was considered against the Soviet Union - a country with thousands of high-quality missiles that it could launch at once. North Korea lacks the quality or quantity the Soviets had; missile defense is definitely a viable strategy against them.

[Autosaver]

PYONGYANG—As the U.S. Supreme Court heard arguments Tuesday on the constitutionality of banning same-sex marriage, North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un told reporters that, considering he’s not a completely awful human being, he unequivocally believes that gay people should be able to marry. “Of course I believe gay and lesbian couples should be treated equally under the law, for God’s sake; I’m not a monster,” the despotic leader said, adding that the idea of trying to stop a loving couple from legally marrying one another is not only wrong from a moral and ethical standpoint but also violates the Fourteenth Amendment. “I have no idea what’s going on with the justices over there, to be honest. The whole thing is a fucking embarrassment.” Kim added that, should the Supreme Court not declare same-sex marriage constitutional in all 50 states, he would strongly consider launching a nuclear weapon at the United States.

run gais

 

TheOnion is hilarious.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Launch 'em, North Korea! Come on! Do it! Press the button and send those missiles fly! I dare ya!

[Tani Coyote]

run gais

 

TheOnion is hilarious.

 

Not sure... if want to be real...

 

In all seriousness, if only the world did have someone who'd back up social causes with nuclear weapons... can only imagine the left-wing utopia we'd quickly become.