The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[Tani Coyote]

I am the only one who still doesn't like the thought of war? 

 

I don't think anyone here wants war, so much as most people are trying to see the silver lining of it all. We'd be able to send one of history's most corrupt, totalitarian regimes to the dustbin of history at last. Just as how I presume not many are favorable of the Iraq War, but will admit that it did get rid of a brutal tyrant.

 

Anyway I am surprised about Obama stepping up missile defences does the US government know something we don't about Iran and North Korea's Nuclear capability because if it is so primitive why bother? Unless they are still paranoid over China and Russia?

 

Better safe than sorry. Also helps us extend protection to our allies in the area somewhat.

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-says-u-anti-missile-north-korea-plan-071813428.html No surprise there.

 

China's just going to have to accept it. The PRC government seemingly doesn't understand the doctrine of "peace through strength;" we're not gearing for war, we're making it much more costly to North Korea if they decide they want one. We're not going to just waltz in and invade the country, which is what China's treating it like. If anything this will HELP negotiations, since North Korea loses its bargaining position. It can't threaten to hurt us if anything they throw our way will just get shot down in mid-flight (if it doesn't explode en route due to their horrible engineering).

 

Nuclear weapons will be used when the country has nothing to lose or if it is fired on first; a missile shield means they can't threaten nuclear strike if they are being crushed. They lose bargaining power which will help negotiations. As it stands a nuclear arsenal makes negotiations difficult because they can shut down talks without consequence. What are we going to do, cut off aid? They've established they don't care about their people, and they obviously have enough resources to achieve their objectives. Words alone will not work. They must be shown that force will NOT help their position.

[Stacy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/korean-tv-networks-banks-report-cyber-attack-071536104.html

 

Hmmm.... I am not saying this isn't the work of the North Koreans probably is but what if it is a outside group of hackers is trying to expolit escalate conflict between the North and the South?

 

Either way this isn't good. 

[Patticus]

Man, it sounds like Kim Jong-un really liked Skyfall.

[Tani Coyote]

As I recall China's the hacking superpower, but I can't really see them wanting to escalate this. China's just a big corporation; they only want what's good for business, and a war on their doorstep isn't good for that. This is why they've been quite clear they'll kick the Kims to the curb if they cause things to hit the fan. China's peaceful rise does not entail getting locked in proxy war with the USA, one of its closest partners.

 

Could have quite possibly been the North Koreans but... do they even have the technological capacity to wage large-scale cyber warfare?

[Patticus]

I don't see why they shouldn't have that capability; Russia and China will probably have been covertly selling the regime technologies other than just arms over the years, I'm sure.

[Tani Coyote]

I don't see why they shouldn't have that capability; Russia and China will probably have been covertly selling the regime technologies other than just arms over the years, I'm sure.

 

True. The North's elites have a fairly good standard of living... which is why we try to squeeze luxury items to force them to the same level as the common people.

 

I was just curious if a country that's so backwards even has the infrastructure to support a major cyber hacking force.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Either way, sounds like the North is getting some more bite to them.

 

They better be careful...

[Tani Coyote]

Indeed. Vicious dogs will get muzzled. Or worse.

 

I'm really hoping they don't escalate this further, because eventually when tensions flare like this you go over a precipice and get far more than you bargained for. After this the North should really call it a day and not agitate the South anymore. The South might not openly attack them but I can see all sorts of black ops exchanges between the two, and with the South being much more economically and technologically powerful, it's obvious who will win. This is a fight the North can't hope to survive.

[Stacy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/south-korea-cyberattack-linked-china-035123157.html

 

According to this article the cyber-attack was linked to China. Also the North Koreans threaten to attack the US Military Bases on Okinawa and Guam.

 

China, Russia and the US are just as bad as each other its a triangle of paranoia, lies and suspicion which hasn't changed since the Cold War warm handshakes for the cameras but when the cameras are turned they are at each others throats. 

 

Paranoia breeds paranoia which can lead to war which leads to death.

[Tani Coyote]

These guys really wanna play the Brinkmanship game, clearly. Do they really think they'll win if they launch the first strike? They really should look at what happened to Saddam's Iraq in the wake of the 2003 invasion for a preview of what will happen to their military if they get too ambitious; they will be shredded.

 

As for China being behind the attacks, this isn't that surprising. I suppose it was a warning shot to the South not to consider the first strike. I think China's trying to use its regional might to keep either party from throwing the first stone, because it faces an undesirable situation either way.

[TheGerkuman]

You guys clearly didn't read the bit that said that most of the DPK's government computers are in China, so China probably had nothing to do with it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Geez, it's a political shitstorm in the making here....

[Johnny Boy]

Why is it so hard for China to just kick North Korea to the curb?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why is it so hard for China to just kick North Korea to the curb?

From what I read into it, it's their bargaining chip to use against the US. But it seems to be backfiring.

[turbojet]

I'm laughing because North Korea even daring to strike first is pretty much the only justifiable nuclear retaliation in existence. There was no preemptive strike, no unjustified cutting off aid, and no reason for them to attack other than to sate some megalomania-cal fat kid's ego. And somehow, it fills me with laughs knowing that not even the New York Times would complain if the United States turned the country into a sheet of glass.  

Edited March 22, 2013 by turbojet

[Patticus]

From what I read into it, it's their bargaining chip to use against the US. But it seems to be backfiring.

 

If the DPRK loses the support of the PRC, even privately, what happens then? Open war at the first tiny provocation?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If the DPRK loses the support of the PRC, even privately, what happens then? Open war at the first tiny provocation?

They've pretty much lost much support from the PRC from what I can tell. All I know is that the South shouldn't attack them first lest the PRC come in...

[Tani Coyote]

And somehow, it fills me with laughs knowing that not even the New York Times would complain if the United States turned the country into a sheet of glass.  

 

Yeah, the North's just asking for it at this point.

 

==

 

Hmm, so the DPRK keeps its computers in China... this changes everything and really shows China does have them by the throat. I can't imagine China's reaction to this; not only will it lead to widespread misconceptions of their involvement but the scale of it all is pretty blatantly a first strike.

 

China seriously needs to put its foot down and say "Okay, that's enough" to its little pet there, because NK's getting a wee bit wild.

[Phos]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/south-korea-cyberattack-linked-china-035123157.html

 

According to this article the cyber-attack was linked to China. Also the North Koreans threaten to attack the US Military Bases on Okinawa and Guam.

 

China, Russia and the US are just as bad as each other its a triangle of paranoia, lies and suspicion which hasn't changed since the Cold War warm handshakes for the cameras but when the cameras are turned they are at each others throats. 

 

Paranoia breeds paranoia which can lead to war which leads to death.

TBH I don't see Russia starting international shit no matter how much Putin resembles a bond villain.  They have oil and the US is an oil consumer so I imagine they'll want to be in a position to sell at some point.  Of course, their decision a while back to not offer the PAK-FA as a candidate for South Korea's new fighter seems to give the impression they don't think too highly of their relations with the US considering that their reasoning had to do with SK's relations with the US.  

[Tani Coyote]

Russia would most likely not want to rock the boat too much, but they've used their energy as a weapon in the past. As I recall the European Union once was causing problems with them and suddenly much of Europe experienced natural gas "blackouts" and the like. Whereas China's moved more or less to the business model for international diplomacy, Russia still seems to have a desire to exercise power like it did in the Soviet days. It adamantly opposes Western interests at every turn and corner, even when it'd be perfectly reasonable for us to work together.

 

So, whereas China wouldn't start anything serious for economic reasons, Russia I'm not so convinced on.

[Stacy]

Russia would most likely not want to rock the boat too much, but they've used their energy as a weapon in the past. As I recall the European Union once was causing problems with them and suddenly much of Europe experienced natural gas "blackouts" and the like. Whereas China's moved more or less to the business model for international diplomacy, Russia still seems to have a desire to exercise power like it did in the Soviet days. It adamantly opposes Western interests at every turn and corner, even when it'd be perfectly reasonable for us to work together.

 

So, whereas China wouldn't start anything serious for economic reasons, Russia I'm not so convinced on.

 

Kinda ironic seeing as the US does the same thing as Russia you're like a Brother and Sister that fights over a toy.

 

China has the world by the balls they could get away anything if they wanted to and the West would turn a blind eye and appease them because China owns and makes almost anything these days. 

[Tornado]

China doesn't have the world by the balls. Much of the world manufacturing is in China, but that's an extremely tenuous thing to try to force things on other countries with; particularly countries with a massive industrial base that is underutilized as it is. Compared to Russia's ability to strangle countries over their dependence on resources, if China was to do anything truly heinous that world manufacturing wouldn't be there anymore; and there is no shortage of countries with cheap labor that just isn't as cheap.

[Stacy]

China doesn't have the world by the balls. Much of the world manufacturing is in China, but that's an extremely tenuous thing to try to force things on other countries with; particularly countries with a massive industrial base that is underutilized as it is. Compared to Russia's ability to strangle countries over their dependence on resources, if China was to do anything truly heinous that world manufacturing wouldn't be there anymore; and there is no shortage of countries with cheap labor that just isn't as cheap.

 

You forget that like Russia, China also has a surplus of rare minerals and resources as well, I can't see why they can't pull a Russia if they wanted to.

[Tornado]

China's ace in the whole isn't their exports of natural resources, though. Their main advantage that allows them to be so powerful is the way they've built the country's workforce around being tempting to outside investment, which gives their economy massive gains over other countries. It's basically the best way to utilize their massive population in the modern age; and since their isn't that much concern for the well being of much of it the benefits are practically endless so long as the government stays in charge. The problem is that they can't play chicken with countries with companies that utilize that advantage because that advantage isn't absolute. If the US issued a ban on companies utilizing Chinese labor, the US economy would take a massive initial hit but could weather the storm long term once it overcame it. Mexico would certainly be happy as hell about it; as would some Asian countries that are near enough to China anyway.

 

The Chinese economy, being not only built to entice but also leveraged on outside investment, could not.

[Stacy]

China's ace in the whole isn't their exports of natural resources, though. Their main advantage that allows them to be so powerful is the way they've built the country's workforce around being tempting to outside investment, which gives their economy massive gains over other countries. It's basically the best way to utilize their massive population in the modern age; and since their isn't that much concern for the well being of much of it the benefits are practically endless so long as the government stays in charge. The problem is that they can't play chicken with countries with companies that utilize that advantage because that advantage isn't absolute. If the US issued a ban on companies utilizing Chinese labor, the US economy would take a massive initial hit but could weather the storm long term once it overcame it. Mexico would certainly be happy as hell about it; as would some Asian countries that are near enough to China anyway.

 

The Chinese economy, being not only built to entice but also leveraged on outside investment, could not.

 

Hypothetically speaking what if China did something so bad that it violated tons of international laws and kept doing it how long would it take before anyone would truly dare go up against them?   

 

EDIT: As for the US exploiting cheap labour they look to their South American Cousins for that. But when it comes to rare minerals countries like China and Russia have it by the bucket loads and they know this.

Edited March 24, 2013 by BW199148