The North Korea Thread: Threats, Propaganda and a brewing Holocaust

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, that'll be quite a tribunal in the aftermath...nevermind how many of the DPRK's own people are suffering, and considering their training and poor funding of their military I think war atrocities wouldn't be such an issue...unless it was the South Koreans doing it instead. I think the worst that would be to worry about would be th influx of refugees from NK, and the social problems that would arise from it.

Without nukes, I doubt the North would get far past the DMZ. And really, I'm just sick of the regime and their Little Man Syndrome. I don't mean to act like a million is a statistic and glorifying war here, but I just can't wait for this obstacle to be done away with.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

While I'd love to see the North fall, the main threat of war is that Seoul lies within like 25 miles of the DMZ. It's not impossible that a dense city of 10 million could take high damage and casualties just from lobbing missiles and shit over the border, and anyways I got cousins there which worries me a little. That said I wonder how the North would even mobilize? I wouldn't doubt it if South Korea could detect that kind of movement, because they've got satellites all over that shit. In which case the South preempts the war. As for this current development, I think we are seeing Kim Jong-un being less good at this game than his father was, and absolutely nothing will come of it. Oh and Dennis Rodman should stop talking because he's absolutely clueless to what he's saying and is only looking stupid now.

Edited March 6, 2013 by American Ristar

[Tornado]

The issue is, does North Korea even have the ability to do that? Nevermind a "surgical strike;" this is the same country that acts as if the missile simply not blowing up on accident when they do their grand tests of their weapons capability is an achievement in and of itself. They lob dozens of missiles at South Korea, and how many would even make it over the DMZ and how many would just crash somewhere in North Korea? I know it would be shitty even if a single one made it over, but...

 

Also Dennis Rodman should stop talking because he's absolutely clueless to what he is saying and he's only looking stupid.

 

Well... it's Dennis Rodman.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Tornado

[Komodin]

Oh and Dennis Rodman should stop talking because he's absolutely clueless to what he's saying and is only looking stupid now.

 

Wait, what does Dennis Rodman have to do with this predicament?

[Badnik Zero]

Nevermind a "surgical strike;" this is the same country that acts as if the missile simply not blowing up on accident when they do their grand tests of their weapons capability is an achievement in and of itself.

 

Well it's hard to miss a city as large as Seoul. NK missile tests have been long range, usually soaring over Japan and hilariously crashing into the Pacific, but they do have shorter range missiles. Wikipedia lists their version of the Scud.

 

Wait, what does Dennis Rodman have to do with this predicament?

 

Vice magazine got journalist passes to North Korea. They were planning to do a wacky international story about Dennis Rodman and some Globetrotters versus North Korean basketball players. It turned out Jong-un wanted to meet Rodman and threw a dictator's welcome for the visiting crew. Rodman endorses him as a good guy apparently.

 

http://youtu.be/gvWbLtd3cuY

Edited March 6, 2013 by American Ristar

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well it's hard to miss a city as large as Seoul. NK missile tests have been long range, usually soaring over Japan and hilariously crashing into the Pacific, but they do have shorter range missiles. Wikipedia lists their version of the Scud.

I don't think the short range missiles will be that much of a problem. It's the nukes that should be the concern, because that's really NK's only trump card in a war. Considering the stuff that goes on in missile tech, I'd say they'd be lucky to even launch from the platform.

 

And this is before we get into missile defense systems, which I'm pretty sure South Korea would have concerning the North beating the war drum here.

 

Let's put it this way: the only thing that will benefit NK is if South Korea attacks first, which I'm sure they're smart enough not to do. Otherwise, if NK deals the first strike, they can try surgical whatever they want, but they're not gonna win. China will likely back off, and if NK does launch nukes successfully, that'll be more heat on them. And come around the event that they lose, there's gonna be a major tribunal over this mess concerning the use of WMD's...Tornado could definitely give a better analysis than what I did because I don't have all the details.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tani Coyote]

Nothing will come of it, as usual. Most we'd ever see is skirmishes. The North wouldn't pursue all out war because they know they'd lose, and the South wouldn't pursue all out war because a) they wouldn't want to occupy and develop one of the world's foremost hellholes, and China would oppose such an action since it would strengthen US influence.

 

So nothing major. It's the usual routine. The North, I presume, just likes to look tough in the event China ever decides to cut a business deal with the US and let them go. Like say, North Korea for Taiwan.

[Phos]

Dennis Rodman is just a contrarian, he's obsessed with being in the public eye, just does whatever's weirdest.  

[Stacy]

Yeah, that'll be quite a tribunal in the aftermath...nevermind how many of the DPRK's own people are suffering, and considering their training and poor funding of their military I think war atrocities wouldn't be such an issue...unless it was the South Koreans doing it instead. I think the worst that would be to worry about would be th influx of refugees from NK, and the social problems that would arise from it.

Without nukes, I doubt the North would get far past the DMZ. And really, I'm just sick of the regime and their Little Man Syndrome. I don't mean to act like a million is a statistic and glorifying war here, but I just can't wait for this obstacle to be done away with.

 

Its easy to say that when you are not going to be doing the fighting yourself.

 

Yeah I am well aware the North Korean people are oppressed and are suffering but more people will suffer if a war happens. If a war did happen and North Korea are defeated and Korea is unified China and Russia aren't going to be happy having a Pro-US Korea near their borders it might cause more problems than its worth.

 

Also this war might not go as simple as you claim to. War is never simple.

 

China and Russia still train North Korea troops despite their inferior weaponry.

 

China and Russian will do everything in the power to stop the North from falling. Another factor is how brainwashed the North Korea people are. Propaganda will be a key factor.

 

North Korea is unpredictable and that makes them dangerous.

 

Vietnam was meant to be a simple war look how that turned out the US got their arse handed to them by a technologically inferior country.

 

I would to see love North Korea collapse but I don't think a conflict would go as easy as some people say it would. 

[Tani Coyote]

Vietnam was meant to be a simple war look how that turned out the US got their arse handed to them by a technologically inferior country.

 

Insurgents have the initiative in conflict. You can identify a rank and file soldier on the spot. You don't see insurgents until they attack usually. Sun Tzu cautioned that information was the key to success or defeat, and this is especially true when your enemy can blend into the population flawlessly.

 

The US army is great at handling conventional threats. Forces that are smarter than to confront you openly on the field of battle? Not so much.

 

This is the same reason we avoided confronting the British head on during the early phases of the Revolutionary War; they were far better trained and supplied. Guerilla tactics were the only viable option until we received foreign assistance that made our soldiers actually competent.

 

Really this all illustrates the fact wars aren't won on the battlefield, but in the hearts and minds of one's enemies. The biggest trouble of any war would be convincing the North Korean people we're not there to enslave them or whatever nonsense Kimmy's government cooks up, and that'd be a fun goal given how much of a hold the government has on information there. Without winning the propaganda war, any defeat suffered by the NK forces would be offset by a raging insurgency, many of whom would have military experience (one out of every twenty-five North Koreans is in the military as memory serves).

 

Fortunately the North's not crazy enough to pursue a war, and neither is the South. Short of China or the United States imploding, I'm not seeing any actual conflict any time soon. We both like having our client state on the peninsula far too much.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[Tornado]

China and Russia still train North Korea troops despite their inferior weaponry.

 

China and Russian will do everything in the power to stop the North from falling. Another factor is how brainwashed the North Korea people are. Propaganda will be a key factor.

 

All of that would stop immediately if North Korea invaded the South. China already doesn't like associating with North Korea on an international level, and there is no way they would actively support an invasion.

 

 

Vietnam was meant to be a simple war look how that turned out the US got their arse handed to them by a technologically inferior country.

 

I would to see love North Korea collapse but I don't think a conflict would go as easy as some people say it would. 

 

Vietnam, Korea and even the second Iraq War aren't really comparable examples. Indeed, Vietnam's military forces were basically nonexistent after the disastrous Tet Offensive; but the US started backing off from the conflict soon after anyway because the war became political suicide to support after that.

 

 

In this case, it would be North Korea invading the much more powerful and advanced South Korea; and assuming the war wasn't over within a few weeks there would be no reason for the South Korean government to stop fighting because if they did they would lose everything. The US didn't lose that much from not being in Vietnam, which is pretty much the entire reason why they were forced out so quickly after domestic pressure against the war rose.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Tornado

[Stacy]

Insurgents have the initiative in conflict. You can identify a rank and file soldier on the spot. You don't see insurgents until they attack usually. Sun Tzu cautioned that information was the key to success or defeat, and this is especially true when your enemy can blend into the population flawlessly.

 

The US army is great at handling conventional threats. Forces that are smarter than to confront you openly on the field of battle? Not so much.

 

This is the same reason we avoided confronting the British head on during the early phases of the Revolutionary War; they were far better trained and supplied. Guerilla tactics were the only viable option until we received foreign assistance that made our soldiers actually competent.

 

Really this all illustrates the fact wars aren't won on the battlefield, but in the hearts and minds of one's enemies. The biggest trouble of any war would be convincing the North Korean people we're not there to enslave them or whatever nonsense Kimmy's government cooks up, and that'd be a fun goal given how much of a hold the government has on information there. Without winning the propaganda war, any defeat suffered by the NK forces would be offset by a raging insurgency, many of whom would have military experience (one out of every twenty-five North Koreans is in the military as memory serves).

 

Fortunately the North's not crazy enough to pursue a war, and neither is the South. Short of China or the United States imploding, I'm not seeing any actual conflict any time soon. We both like having our client state on the peninsula far too much.

 

Exactly North Korea has the fourth Largest Army in the world even though its technology is inferior to the South but it still gets economics and possibly convert arms support from China And Russian along with support from Iran and quite a few other Non-Western Countries.

 

Maurice is right Propaganda will be a key factor. If the North Koreans are brainwashed Kim Jong-Un will make his people fight to the last man. So to defeat the North you would have cut off the head of the snake so to speak.

 

Both the North and South are as stubborn as each other so a costly war isn't unrealistic even in the age of cruise missiles and drones.    

Edited March 6, 2013 by BW199148

[Patticus]

Only the NK military will be in any shape to fight, as the general populace is likely too malnourished to do much of anything these days. I'd also like to add that, in the event of war, I can see at least a few major figures within the NK military hierarchy defecting, if nothing else then because they know the futility of any war and they'll want as lenient a treatment as they can get from western authorities and the ICC.

[Tornado]

I once read a quote somewhere along the lines of "the first thing a North Korean pilot will do in the event of war will land his MiG-21 on a South Korean airstrip and surrender."

 

 

An exaggeration, of course, but "invade the country that's obviously far better off than you are" carries such risks.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Tornado

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Its easy to say that when you are not going to be doing the fighting yourself.

Just as it is for me to sit back and talk about the pros and the cons.

 

I'm not gonna deny that there will be loss of life, I'm not gonna say it's worth it, but at the same time I'm not gonna be easily frightened about some small nation wanting to go to war with another more powerful one either.

[Linkabel]

How about that North Korea vowing preemptive nuclear strikes against the U.S. before the U.N. sanction votes?

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/un-vote-new-north-korea-sanctions-thursday

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — North Korea is vowing a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the United States. The harsh rhetoric Thursday comes hours ahead of a vote by U.N. diplomats on whether to level new sanctions against Pyongyang for its recent nuclear test.

An unidentified spokesman for Pyongyang's Foreign Ministry said the North will exercise its right for "pre-emptive nuclear strikes on the headquarters of the aggressors" because Washington is pushing to start a nuclear war against the North.

Such inflammatory rhetoric is common from North Korea. But it has been coming regularly in recent days. North Korea is angry over the possible sanctions and over upcoming U.S.-South Korean military drills.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jaime Bond

[Stacy]

How about that North Korea vowing preemptive nuclear strikes against the U.S. before the U.N. sanction votes?

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/un-vote-new-north-korea-sanctions-thursday

 

Do they though? They probably have a missile that can hit Seoul but Japan or the US it will probably malfunction before it leaves North Korean airspace.

 

Either they are being really crazy or they trying to get the US to back down and drop sanctions which they won't and I don't blame them.

 

Just as it is for me to sit back and talk about the pros and the cons.

 

I'm not gonna deny that there will be loss of life, I'm not gonna say it's worth it, but at the same time I'm not gonna be easily frightened about some small nation wanting to go to war with another more powerful one either.

 

They do have the fourth largest army in the world though so I wouldn't underestimate them completely in a conventional war.

Edited March 7, 2013 by BW199148

[Patticus]

North Korea has threatened to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the United States.

 

An unidentified spokesman for Pyongyang's Foreign Ministry says the North will exercise its right for "pre-emptive nuclear strikes on the headquarters of the aggressors".

 

The spokesman claims Washington is pushing to start a nuclear war against North Korea.

 

The threat comes hours ahead of a vote by UN diplomats on whether to level new sanctions against Pyongyang for its recent nuclear test.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1061345/north-korea-threatens-us-with-nuclear-strike

 

Definitely not trying to influence the vote. Definitely.

[Elseb]

North Korea just wants some of that internet money...

 

[Tani Coyote]

Exactly North Korea has the fourth Largest Army in the world even though its technology is inferior to the South but it still gets economics and possibly convert arms support from China And Russian along with support from Iran and quite a few other Non-Western Countries.

 

Both the North and South are as stubborn as each other so a costly war isn't unrealistic even in the age of cruise missiles and drones.    

 

Well there'd probably be next to no American casualties compared to the South Koreans. The United States hasn't fought a war up close since the Civil War, which remains the most lethal.

 

Explains why we keep the option on the table a lot, actually.

 

Only the NK military will be in any shape to fight, as the general populace is likely too malnourished to do much of anything these days. I'd also like to add that, in the event of war, I can see at least a few major figures within the NK military hierarchy defecting, if nothing else then because they know the futility of any war and they'll want as lenient a treatment as they can get from western authorities and the ICC.

 

The North Korean brass probably know Kim's full of crap, anyway. I hear the higher ups get internet access and such. So they know life's not that bad on the other side of the wall.

 

Excellent point about food. Food is the most precious resource, since it is the one absolutely required for human life. And the United States is one the biggest producers of food. I'm smelling a huge weapon here that doesn't even involve any shots being fired.

 

I once read a quote somewhere along the lines of "the first thing a North Korean pilot will do in the event of war will land his MiG-21 on a South Korean airstrip and surrender."

 

An exaggeration, of course, but "invade the country that's obviously far better off than you are" carries such risks.

 

Tell all defectors everyone from their parents, children and cousins will get fed. Let's see how many of them will take the offer.

 

It's not really treason in the usual sense, anyway. They are both Korean. It is a war between two brothers, and always has been.

 

How about that North Korea vowing preemptive nuclear strikes against the U.S. before the U.N. sanction votes?

 

The term facepalm doesn't even begin to discuss this.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They do have the fourth largest army in the world though so I wouldn't underestimate them completely in a conventional war.

In an age where intelligence, materiel, and economic funding have become ever more important in looking at the terrain and what the enemy is capable of (cuz lord knows that has screwed the US over before, nevermind morale that goes with it) and very much a deciding factor in many cases over manpower, that's not something I would personally give a rats ass about.

Manpower ain't what it used to be anymore. It certainly didn't help us much in Vietnam, I doubt it'll be that much for NK unless the South winded up incompetent.

Edited March 7, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Stacy]

In an age where intelligence, materiel, and economic funding have become ever more important in looking at the terrain and what the enemy is capable of (cuz lord knows that has screwed the US over before, nevermind morale that goes with it) and very much a deciding factor in many cases over manpower, that's not something I would personally give a rats ass about.

Manpower ain't what it used to be anymore. It certainly didn't help us much in Vietnam, I doubt it'll be that much for NK unless the South winded up incompetent.

 

I also like to add that North Korea are quite good at unconventional warfare like infiltration and sabotage which could make things difficult for the South Korean's and its allies. 

 

America pro's are surveillance, air and naval power combined with South Korea and some EU allies without Russian and Chinese interference then we might have a shot but I don't think it is going to end in a few weeks.   

[Patticus]

North Korea ends peace pacts with South

The Panmunjom border crossing is in the Demilitarized Zone

North Korea says it is scrapping all non-aggression pacts with South Korea, closing its hotline with Seoul and shutting their shared border point.

The announcement follows a fresh round of UN sanctions punishing Pyongyang for its nuclear test last month.

Earlier, Pyongyang said it reserved the right to a pre-emptive nuclear strike against its "aggressors".

The US said it took the threats seriously, but that "extreme rhetoric" was not unusual for Pyongyang.

South Korea's defence ministry said that the North would become "extinct" if it went through with its threat.

The North Korean announcement, carried on the KCNA state news agency, said the North was cancelling all non-aggression pacts with the South and closing the main Panmunjom border crossing inside the Demilitarized Zone.

It also said it was notifying the South that it was "immediately" cutting off the North-South hotline.

The hotline, installed in 1971, is intended as a means of direct communication at a time of high tension, but is also used to co-ordinate the passage of people and goods through the heavily fortified Demilitarized Zone.

KCNA said the hotline, which has been severed several times before, "can no longer perform its mission due to the prevailing grave situation".

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un is also reported to have visited front-line military units that were involved in the shelling of a South Korean island in 2010.

KCNA said he had urged the soldiers there to keep themselves ready to "annihilate the enemy" at any time, and reconfirmed so-called "enemy targets" on five islands in the West Sea.

'Extreme rhetoric'

North Korean TV has been showing images of Kim Jong-un visiting troops at undisclosed locations

Seoul's defence ministry spokesman Kim Min-seok said that if the North were to carry out a nuclear attack on South Korea it would become "extinct from the Earth by the will of mankind".

He also warned that in response to any provocation from the North, Seoul would "immediately" turn the US-South Korean military drills currently being conducted "into a punishment mode to respond to it as planned".

The US, the main focus of North Korean ire, said it was capable of protecting itself and its allies from any attacks.

"One has to take what any government says seriously," State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said of the nuclear threat.

"It is for that reason that I repeat here that we are fully capable of defending the United States. But I would also say that this kind of extreme rhetoric has not been unusual for this regime, unfortunately."

Senator Robert Menendez, who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said North Korea knew what the cost of any attack would be.

"I don't think that the regime in Pyongyang wants to commit suicide, but that as they must surely know, that would be the result of any attack on the United States," he said.

On Thursday, the UN Security Council in New York unanimously backed Resolution 2094, imposing the fourth set of sanctions against the North.

The resolution targets North Korean diplomats, cash transfers and access to luxury goods.

It imposes asset freezes and travel bans on three individuals and two firms linked to North Korea's military.

South Korea's ambassador to the UN, Kim Sook, said it was time for North Korea to "wake up from its delusion" of becoming a nuclear state.

"It can either take the right path toward a bright future and prosperity, or it can take a bad road toward further and deeper isolation and eventual self-destruction," he said.

US ambassador to the UN Susan Rice said the sanctions would "further constrain" North Korea's ability to develop its nuclear programme.

She warned that the UN would "take further significant actions" if Pyongyang were to carry out another nuclear test.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang issued a statement supporting the UN resolution and describing it as a "moderate response".

He said China - North Korea's sole ally - urged "relevant parties" to stay calm and said the main priority was to "defuse the tensions, bring down heat" and restart negotiations with Pyongyang.

Before the UN vote, Pyongyang accused the US of pushing to start a war.

"As long as the United States is willing to spark nuclear war, our forces will exercise their right to a pre-emptive nuclear strike," said North Korea's foreign ministry, in a statement carried by the KCNA news agency.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21709917

Shit's getting really real. Are they calling our bluff? If they are, that's a mighty big pair of balls Mr. Jong Un has tucked away in there.

 

If the ceasefire is really over, though, American and South Korean armed forces in the region should be on high alert and ready to mobilize on a moment's notice, at least one carrier group will be ready for anything, drones will be in the air, and Obama's probably with his top military advisers in the White House Situation Room right now.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I also like to add that North Korea are quite good at unconventional warfare like infiltration and sabotage which could make things difficult for the South Korean's and its allies. 

 

 

America pro's are surveillance, air and naval power combined with South Korea and some EU allies without Russian and Chinese interference then we might have a shot but I don't think it is going to end in a few weeks.   

You forget the US invaded Pakistan right under their government's nose just to kill Osama bin Laden and got away with it. Even when helicopters crashed and explosions were ignited, we managed to get the troops out before Pakistan could take action.

 

The US and Isreal got away with planting a virus in Iran's nuclear facilities that set back their nuclear program. No doubt one of the reasons why they're not giving back the RQ-170 that flew into their airspace.

 

Considering that South Korea is an ally of the US, and is probably learning some military tactics and strategies from them considering their military drills, I think they can manage unconventional warfare and infiltration. We have factions of our own military and intellegence dedicated for those very purposes, such as the CIA that does covert missions (i.e. infiltration) and intelligence, as well as several special forces that due unconventional warfare such as the Green Berets and Navy Seals.

 

Heck, for what it's worth, South Korea is said to have a division of female soldiers in their 707th SMB that would be used in places where a woman wouldn't easily be seen as a military threat. I think they have the bases covered as far as countermeasures goes.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Stacy]

You forget the US invaded Pakistan right under their government's nose just to kill Osama bin Laden and got away with it. Even when helicopters crashed and explosions were ignited, we managed to get the troops out before Pakistan could take action.

 

The US and Isreal got away with planting a virus in Iran's nuclear facilities that set back their nuclear program. No doubt one of the reasons why they're not giving back the RQ-170 that flew into their airspace.

 

Considering that South Korea is an ally of the US, and is probably learning some military tactics and strategies from them considering their military drills, I think they can manage unconventional warfare and infiltration. We have factions of our own military and intellegence dedicated for those very purposes, such as the CIA that does covert missions (i.e. infiltration) and intelligence, as well as several special forces that due unconventional warfare such as the Green Berets and Navy Seals.

 

Heck, for what it's worth, South Korea is said to have a division of female soldiers in their 707th SMB that would be used in places where a woman wouldn't easily be seen as a military threat. I think they have the bases covered as far as countermeasures goes.

 

No I didn't forget about the US Covert operation to get Bin Laden don't get condescending now. Seriously I am well aware of the US own special forces and tactics but then again so does North Korea. North gets its training and support from China And Russia just as the South gets its training and support from the US. Unlike the South Koreans the North won't get physical and conventional support from China and Russia which will be one of their biggest hurdles and will probably cost them war in the end. 

 

The North Korean's have known to carry out assassinations of various South Korean officials among other tactics over the years.The North Korean's have women in their army as well.

 

Where are going with this because we both have different opinions on how things might play out you think it will be a cakewalk victory while I think it will be more complicated. So were just going in circles aren't we?