Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

I think it comes down to execution; Game developers are well within their to rights to make a design mechanic mandatory if they want the players to experience it firsthand,but if that mechanic is poorly implemented, then gamers also have a right to criticize its inclusion based on how shoddy it is. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about forcing the player to do a mandatory game mechanic, but bad game design is bad game design.

[Tara]

Well how would you say the whole werehog thing should have been handled then? I know I'm one of those people that liked the werehog sections like some of you as well. I often still hear the things about how he breaks up the gameplay and makes things not as fun because you have to play as him to get the day time stuff. This is one of those things I've mentioned before where it seems people in Sonic games want to do nothing but run run run, they don't even want to platform that much anymore in the games. This is rather evident by how Colors and Generations get good scores since what do you do in them, run run run for the most part with very few platforming in some levels and what  platforming there is can be difficult due to how fast the characters are made to go.

 

I know one said that the day and night stages should always be two different games, but that does sound like it would result in one getting alot more copies sold than the other. I'm just wondering how the werehog could have been done to have gone over better then, since as I just mentioned, there are many people that seem to want run run run and nothing else.

There's nothing inherently wrong deviating from the typical gameplay format, but in my opinion, it should be a modification of core gameplay (not as a golden rule as there are plenty of good exceptions), not something that intrudes upon it.  Being able to use a giant battle robot thing in the Mega Man X games?  Brilliant!  Being forced to go through several stages where you're only means of doing anything involve being in said mech?  Absolutely terrible.

[Nepenthe]

I'd compare the Werehog more to Twilight Princess's forcing you to play as a wolf in several parts throughout the game.  I haven't played Wind Waker so I might be a total idiot in saying this, but at least with the sailing you're still Link... doing Linky things.  Even though I didn't have a problem with the wolf, I can understand the frustration of playing the game as human/elf/I don't know that much about Zelda I'm not sure if that's obvious Link and then suddenly you're thrust into being a wolf who controls drastically different and can't use any of the same abilities.  It's just an obstruction.

Controlling a boat versus controlling a Hylian is just arbitrarily different from controlling a wolf versus controlling a Hylian, although it's certainly a point in the latter's favor by the irony of the wolf sticking infinitely closer to the dungeon crawling foundation of the franchise than the boat does! And rest assured; you are not controlling Link controlling a boat when sailing. You are indeed controlling the boat (or rather the boat and wind?), and that comes with its own control scheme with differences from the norm that the player must accustom themselves to in order to progress. So it seems a little odd to downplay the analogy on the essential basis of, well, Link's character model changes in one instance and not the other. If the two games were more equivalent in that Link instead had a dog you could control at the exact same points as you become the wolf in Twilight Princess, it wouldn't really change a thing. You're still being "forced" to doge anyway, and in the grand scheme that's no different from being "forced" to sail.

 

I wasn't saying that I bought the game solely for the daytime stages.  I knew very well that there would be night stages where you played as the Werehog and that it would be mandatory.  However, the daytime stages were my primary reasons for buying the game, and I bought the game with the expectations that the gimmick would enhance or otherwise modify the existing core gameplay, not completely take it over and transform it into something different.  Just like I knew that I'd have to play as the other characters in SA1 thanks to the box art and such, but I didn't know that I'd be hunting for Emeralds and fishing for frogs in order to progress through the game.

Well, it didn't really transform the core gameplay; it was more of another side of the pyramid that is Unleashed. But overall to me, that's about as meaningful as saying "I expected this game to be fun" or "I expected this movie to be good." You're asking for something a little unpredictable as since Sonic Team didn't develop the Werehog with the intent of making him an obstacle. They fully expected him to feel like an integrated part of the experience. Certainly I feel that way because a.) I had fun with him, and b.) I continually assert you can't replace the Werehog with anything or anyone else, or take it out, within the current confines of the overall game's design as is; Unleashed is not Unleashed without him. So he certainly is integrated, just perhaps not in the way people wanted, which is a more interesting argument to have than saying he shouldn't have been integrated at all either by being optional or replaced outright because that's "wrong." Because I'll always disagree with that on a fundamental level anyway.

 

I wasn't so much saying that every game mechanic should be optional, but that player choice should always be considered, especially when it involves doing something drastically different or putting you deliberately outside your area of comfort.  (Not that removing the "comfort zone" is intrinsically bad, but feeling like you have absolutely no control in anything isn't exactly preferable)  I'll concede that Sonic Unleashed probably wouldn't benefit narratively from the werehog being an optional component, bu forcing it certainly doesn't enrich the gameplay either.

When it comes to games, one man's prison is another man's playground. I feel like equating a major design component of a game that is meant to be additive to the overall experience to "having absolutely no control in anything" is relatively dramatic, as personally I don't view such elements as muscling in on the fun. I view them as part of the fun, parts that have no objective reason to be separated, especially under the pervading belief that Sonic games should only do one thing and one thing only. Core gameplay can be augmented, twisted, and given new context. That's the fun of the medium.

[Tara]

Controlling a boat versus controlling a Hylian is just arbitrarily different from controlling a wolf versus controlling a Hylian, although it's certainly a point in the latter's favor by the irony of the wolf sticking infinitely closer to the dungeon crawling foundation of the franchise than the boat does! And rest assured; you are not controlling Link controlling a boat when sailing. You are indeed controlling the boat (or rather the boat and wind?), and that comes with its own control scheme with differences from the norm that the player must accustom themselves to in order to progress. So it seems a little odd to downplay the analogy on the essential basis of, well, Link's character model changes in one instance and not the other. If the two games were more equivalent in that Link instead had a dog you could control at the exact same points as you become the wolf in Twilight Princess, it wouldn't really change a thing. You're still being "forced" to doge anyway, and in the grand scheme that's no different from being "forced" to sail.

I suppose you have a point, but I don't know.  I don't see it as the same.  It's like the Sky Chase mini-games in SA1.  They were more forgivable to me than the constant onslaught of Werehog in Unleashed.  I think that largely stems from the fact that there's only two of them where as Unleashed (at least the Wii version) had a disproportionate amount of night and day stages.  I don't think I'd want them to release a game whereby there were several sub-games like that, which is exactly how it felt in Unleashed.

 

 

Well, it didn't really transform the core gameplay; it was more of another side of the pyramid that is Unleashed. But overall to me, that's about as meaningful as saying "I expected this game to be fun" or "I expected this movie to be good." You're asking for something a little unpredictable as since Sonic Team didn't develop the Werehog with the intent of making him an obstacle. They fully expected him to feel like an integrated part of the experience. Certainly I feel that way because a.) I had fun with him, and b.) I continually assert you can't replace the Werehog with anything or anyone else, or take it out, within the current confines of the overall game's design as is; Unleashed is not Unleashed without him. So he certainly is integrated, just perhaps not in the way people wanted, which is a more interesting argument to have than saying he shouldn't have been integrated at all either by being optional or replaced outright because that's "wrong." Because I'll always disagree with that on a fundamental level anyway.

All game aspects are developed with the intention of being integrated part of the experience, but rather or not they come across that way is a completely different matter.  I know they were trying to make it a whole integrated experience and not one trying to make one more preferable than the other, but it certainly felt that way.  I'll again concede that having him optional wouldn't have worked in Unleashed's favor narratively, but I don't think having the Werehog was ever a necessity to the gameplay.  Sure, the Werehog is what defined Unleashed as its own game, and I'm certainly glad that it enabled us to have a fairly well-written story as a result, but even as someone who enjoyed it, I still think that it was a poor decision that was only saved by a good everything else.

 

 

When it comes to games, one man's prison is another man's playground. I feel like equating a major design component of a game that is meant to be additive to the overall experience to "having absolutely no control in anything" is relatively dramatic, as personally I don't view such elements as muscling in on the fun. I view them as part of the fun, parts that have no objective reason to be separated, especially under the pervading belief that Sonic games should only do one thing and one thing only. Core gameplay can be augmented, twisted, and given new context. That's the fun of the medium.

While that's true, I still don't think it warrants being so obstructive that it completely breaks the flow.  In SA1, most of the characters at least used the basic Sonic character template.  In SA2, being forced to go from one to the other was just as miserable as being forced to play as the Werehog for several stages straight in Unleashed.  To reiterate, a game can be good despite of it, (read: MDK 2) but I don't find it ideal to have something which rather rapidly changes the pace to such a dramatic degree.

[dancarblog]

I don't like the Archie/SatAM universe. Mobius, roboticization, all those things... never really liked them.

I like the planet called Mobius (in the Sonic the Comic way), but I don't really like the rest of the elements of the SatAM/Archie universe.

[E-122-Psi]

I think it's good in concept, though I do kinda prefer the current games world mostly. I will admit I don't really take to the whole Freedom Fighter concept, since it kinda limits all the hero characters into the same ranks as generic soldiers all doing the same thing, rather than having their own motives and occupations (the Chaotix have much more individualism and personality as money hungry detectives than Knuckles' sidekick squad for example). It works for a small ragtag team like in Satam but when the whole world is just a big military unit it feels like the cast are kinda monotonous.

 

I also admit most of the 'Mobius' originated renditions of the games cast are usually my least favorite (especially Sonic and Robotnik).

Edited November 8, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Jet Prower]

Well the concept of the entire series is still around people trying to keep a horrible tyrant from ruiling the world or from trying to perform global genocide on the entire planet. It is no wonder that most of the mobians on the planet are all trying to be freedom fighters or small soldiers to try and keep him from succeeding. If lots of people don't care, then you either get lots of citizens who can't defend themselves, or you get a case like in Sonic Underground where certain classes may actually side with Eggman/Robotnik and not mind him ruling as long as he leaves them alone for the most part.

[E-122-Psi]

Well the concept of the entire series is still around people trying to keep a horrible tyrant from ruiling the world or from trying to perform global genocide on the entire planet. It is no wonder that most of the mobians on the planet are all trying to be freedom fighters or small soldiers to try and keep him from succeeding. If lots of people don't care, then you either get lots of citizens who can't defend themselves, or you get a case like in Sonic Underground where certain classes may actually side with Eggman/Robotnik and not mind him ruling as long as he leaves them alone for the most part.

I'm not saying I don't get why the concept exists, I'm just saying I'm not really into it, I prefer all the characters getting their own unique professions and ambitions spotlighted than just being another soldier in the ranks with nothing to do but 'stop the bad guy'. That's what makes for character in Heroes and the Adventure series, the characters being put into the situation for different reasons. That's likely why they can't do as full adaptions of such games in the comics, they wouldn't have as interesting a story to tell.

Edited November 8, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's kinda hard to have anything that's not "stop the bad guy" when the bad guy is the entire source of the conflict that's required to give motivation for their involvement. That's not saying they can't have unique professions and ambitions, just that those different professions and ambitions either all work together towards the same result, or clash in the process of achieving that result and inadvertently creating a new problem. It's no different in the games, so I don't see how the comics are any different, especially in the Universe comics where were seeing groups of characters fight among each other, fight completely different threats, or get thrown into completely different worlds and look for their way back, among various other things.

 

And as far as the reason why they can't do full adaptation of such games, it isn't because they wouldn't have as interesting a story to tell (I mean, really? How is that even a reason when that shit is subjective as it is?), but likely because they're either trying to balance all that in adapting the stuff they already have present, because they haven't scheduled an adaptation, or because they haven't gotten permission to do so. It could be anything, really.

[E-122-Psi]

I think that's often a key reason heroic characters are sometimes more one dimensional than villains, their role is defined by reacting, rather than having a specific ambition like the bad guys are. Sonic kinda works into it because he lives for stopping bad guys and being the big hero, other characters however seem kinda dull when their only motivation is life relies on some dick terrorizing them non stop (the only character that really gets a lot of spotlight into ambition outside the war is Sally, and even then royalty politics tend to be executed in as dull a manner as possible). This generally shows whenever Archie tries for more casual story subjects, which are usually unbearably dull or exposition reliant since when the threat ends the good guys literally have nothing to do with their lives anymore.

 

Compare this to the games or Sonic X where the characters are often shown with some element of ambition in their life outside of their fight with evil and some of their 'slice of life' moments at the very least have potential to be entertaining. As said take the Chaotix for example, we get some sort of thrive in their lives in such medias, they want money, they want fame (they even have a subject of envy in Sonic X to compare their goals to), Vector even has a crush in the anime he is driven to impress. In the comics they're just sitting there, waiting for Knuckles to give them the call to take action. Some can accuse the former medias of being more silly and unrealistic, but in the end I think they result in fuller characters.

Edited November 8, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Kuzu]

Except its far more easier to give characters motivation when the series revolves around fighting the bad guy; Focusing on why they want to fight them is a key reason here. Why do these characters want to beat this guy so badly? What event in their life led to them going down this path, and how different is everyone's motivation. It can range from saving a loved one, revenge, or simply because its the right thing to do.  Simplifying everyone's motivations for fighting the bad guy to just "He's bad so we have to fight him" is a massive straw man and not one I particularly agree with. Especially since it sounds like you're implying the only way characters can be "richer" is when they have lives when that don't revolve around fighting the villain, but then why is the viewer required to care about them if their lives are not central to the main conflict?

Edited November 8, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[-blank-]

 certain classes may actually side with Eggman/Robotnik and not mind him ruling as long as he leaves them alone for the most part.

 

I'm not sure how unpopular or popular an opinion this is, but I would like to see someone work alongside Eggman who isn't either a robot - at least not one he designed - (Metal Sonic), isn't doing so simply to further thier own motivations (Shadow), or isn't being controlled by him in any way (Chaos). I want to see a character who willingly works with Eggman. I just think it would be an interesting contrast to what we usually get in characters, most who oppose Eggman in at least some fashion.

[Splash the Otter]

But now you're making it sound like the only way to have a conflict is to involve the main villain somehow. Also, does it really matter what their specific motivation is when at the end of the day, they're all trying to do the same thing?

[-blank-]

... How am I making it sound like the only way to have conflict is with the main villian?

[Splash the Otter]

Sorry, I was talking to Azure Yakuzu. I probably should have quoted him or something.

[Kuzu]

Well if that's the case.
 

But now you're making it sound like the only way to have a conflict is to involve the main villain somehow. Also, does it really matter what their specific motivation is when at the end of the day, they're all trying to do the same thing?

 

Except I never said that...

 

 

I said, just because most characters have the primary goal of beating the bad guy does not make them boring one note characters who only have one goal in mind(Which what Psi was saying with his post), and that having motivations separate from that does not make them any more "rich" in character.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Splash the Otter]

I said, just because most characters have the primary goal of beating the bad guy does not make them boring one note characters who only have one goal in mind(Which what Psi was saying with his post), and that having motivations separate from that does not make them any more "rich" in character.

But this entire discussion is about how Dr. Eggman is pretty much the only driving force in the comics! None of the characters have any kind of motivation that isn't directly related to him!

[Kuzu]

But this entire discussion is about how Dr. Eggman is pretty much the only driving force in the comics! None of the characters have any kind of motivation that isn't directly related to him!

 

And? That still doesn't address my point in how this makes them have any less character as a result of that. Eggman being the driving force for most of the characters just means he's the one causing most of the problems the characters have to solve.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Well when Mogul was active he was pretty threatening and independent, but then he realized the waiting game suited him better, I am really curious as to how he will make a comeback with this Archie reboot

[Splash the Otter]

And? That still doesn't address my point in how this makes them have any less character as a result of that. Eggman being the driving force for most of the characters just means he's the one causing most of the problems the characters have to solve.

I don't have a problem with Dr. Eggman being a driving force. The problem is more in how nearly all the conflict is between his empire and everyone else. Any kind of life the characters may have outside of fighting him is constantly shoved aside as a result.

[-blank-]

Sorry, I was talking to Azure Yakuzu. I probably should have quoted him or something.

 

Ah okay then. Carry on.

[Kuzu]

I don't have a problem with Dr. Eggman being a driving force. The problem is more in how nearly all the conflict is between his empire and everyone else. Any kind of life the characters may have outside of fighting him is constantly shoved aside as a result.

We clearly see when these characters are on their down time in between arcs, so your point still makes no sense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Splash the Otter]

Okay, so maybe I was exaggerating slightly, but there's still my first point to consider.

The problem is more in how nearly all the conflict is between his empire and everyone else.

[Kuzu]

Because Eggman controls a significant portion of the planet...that's not really a problem unless you just don't like Eggman.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That, and Eggman isn't the only antagonistic and powerful force here? Mammoth Mogul (if he's still around)? Ixis Nagus? And even other cases where heroes, anti-heroes or amoral characters are going at each other's throats like in Treasure Team Tango where Team Rose fought Team Dark, the Babylon Rouges, and Team Hooligan?

 

Really, the comics are more diverse and well rounded that you guys are claiming otherwise. Far more than the games in many cases.

 

Edit: Also,

Also, does it really matter what their specific motivation is when at the end of the day, they're all trying to do the same thing?

Yes it does. That's what makes characters different and unique from each other as seperate characters, along with their personalities and abilities. It helps make them more individuals instead of just a collective mass, and we all like unique and individual characters, right?

Edited November 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic