The biggest problem with Sonic games

[...]

Except it clearly is and you are putting it into as exaggerated words as you possibly can.

Didn't you get what the message of the old Sonic games were all about?

I've already answered this in the previous page.

You said that humans are stupid and should never be shown again, that doesn't explain anything.

[BarleyFields]

Eggman only makes sense because he is the only human in an otherwise animal game. He is the ultimate metaphor of how industrialisation destroys nature. Any other humans destroy this balance and confuses the whole message of what Sonic was about.

It's quite simple really

For Rayman. Post from previous page.

[...]

For Rayman. Post from previous page.

"Eggman only makes sense because he is the only human in an otherwise animal game. He is the ultimate metaphor of how industrialisation destroys nature. Any other humans destroy this balance and confuses the whole message of what Sonic was about."

I don't see Eggman brutally murdering animals in the series :U

Edited October 28, 2012 by Rayman

[Rexeljet]

The "industry Vs. nature" story is cliché and has been run into the ground. It's also a very hypocritical one because of all the trees that were chopped down to make the manuals and boxarts for the games, or the animation cells for the SatAm cartoon, which had a very forced 'nature vs technology' plotline.

[BarleyFields]

"Eggman only makes sense because he is the only human in an otherwise animal game. He is the ultimate metaphor of how industrialisation destroys nature. Any other humans destroy this balance and confuses the whole message of what Sonic was about."

How the hell does this make any sense?

I think it's quite straightforward. It's not hard to understand. Simply that Robotnik exists as the binary of Sonic: he is the personification of Industry. This is the same with Sonic except vice-versa with Nature.

To put in any other humans dilutes the whole purpose of Robotnik.

The "industry Vs. nature" story is cliché and has been run into the ground. It's also a very hypocritical one because of all the trees that were chopped down to make the manuals and boxarts for the games, or the animation cells for the SatAm cartoon, which had a very forced 'nature vs technology' plotline.

That doesn't matter. It was the whole spirit of the classic games and it integral to the way they were produced and functioned.

[Kuzu]

Dammit, Dio is gonna beat me to it again.

[batson]

I don't see Eggman brutally murdering animals in the series :U

Um, no, but he did use them as batteries to power his machines. Which actually makes the "technologys/humanitys raping of nature" theme even more explicit than if he had merely killed the animals.

Edited October 28, 2012 by batson

[Briraka]

1) Humans in Sonic

Thing is though, the world of the games is supposed to be an alternate Earth (aside from having 2 moons(Riders ZG) and a ring of space rocks (Doomsday Zone), so all of a sudden getting rid of the humans would be a little jarring.

2) Sonic's friends

Now, this can be remedied by having better characterization and gameplay. The characters can share a base gameplay style, and have different moves and attributes to differentiate them enough to justify playing as them.

3) Making Sonic games to slow

The only games that I can say where Sonic was slow was 06 and Labyrinth. The former was a rush job, and the latter was just a little portable game. Otherwise, Sonic has been about the right speed or a little bit too fast.

4) Not putting enough time and effort into polish

Adventure was made during a time when 3D games were just getting started, so it hasn't aged very well. Can't say anything about Sonic 4, since I haven't played it yet.

[Diogenes]

1) Humans in Sonic

Wrong. Even if you don't like there being humans in the series, there's no way in hell that this is one of the biggest problems with the games.

There should not be any humans in a Sonic game besides Dr Robotnik.

If you can have Eggman, why not others? Why do you make an exception for this human but no others?

It makes no sense with blue hedgehogs and orange foxes to then attempt realism by putting humans in.

Humans aren't innately an attempt to insert realism. And having humans is in no way against the series' nature, given that there's been a human as a major character since day one.

If there's a problem here, it's not that humans exist, but that animals, outside of the named cast, do not. Sonic and friends are outsiders in their own world. What we need is more animal NPCs alongside humans.

2) Sonic's friends

Most of the cast has sucked at one point or another, Sonic included. While the cast might benefit from a trim, the real problem is poor writing and usage of characters, which wouldn't be solved by simply getting rid of characters. And trimming the cast down to just a couple is going to severely limit what they can do, storywise. The solution is to write better, to make the characters interesting, to give them a purpose in the series, not to throw them all out.

3) Making Sonic games to slow

If anything the games have become too fast. They've focused on speed to the exclusion of all else, leading to games that are simplistic and shallow. They need to tone down the top speed, design games that are still quick and have a good sense of flow, without being limited to the bare minimum of gameplay that boosting speeds mandate.

4) Not putting enough time and effort into polish

Sonic 4 aside, the recent games have had plenty of polish. Their problems are primarily in design, not execution. No amount of polish can turn a turd into gold.

Eggman only makes sense because he is the only human in an otherwise animal game. He is the ultimate metaphor of how industrialisation destroys nature. Any other humans destroy this balance and confuses the whole message of what Sonic was about.

Protip dude: Sonic games are smarter than you. The message isn't the ultra-simplistic "nature good, machines bad". The message is that unchecked development, done without the consideration of its effects on the world, is dangerous. Sonic CD's good futures are proof of that; they unify nature and technology to create apparent utopias.

[Kuzu]

I think I will outline the biggest problems that Sonic games in general face. As I am not a hardcore fan I am therefore the least biased person to make such claims. Here are the problems (in no order):

ya know, when you say you aren't being biased, it usually means you are.

1) Humans in Sonic

I played Adventure over my friends' house and this just really got to me. There should not be any humans in a Sonic game besides Dr Robotnik. It makes no sense with blue hedgehogs and orange foxes to then attempt realism by putting humans in. It's stupid and should never be done again. I'm not sure if it has ever been done since because there were no humans in Generations. And thank goodness for that.

Why is Dr. Eggman ok, but then it's suddenly taboo for any other human? And Don't tell me it's because "Eggman is the villain, so he HAS to appear" It's a fallacy to assume humans are unfitting for Sonic, but then turn around and give a free pass to Eggman, especially when the reason is as flimsy as the one you've given.

2) Sonic's friends

Not all of Sonic's friends are completely useless. Tails is alright I guess. But the rest of them are all atrocious (especially Shadow). When I loaded up Generations I thought all his friends had been sucked into a black hole to be gone forever...lest that was not to be. Unfortunately they still plague the series. Sonic is a great mascot and character and he doesn't need lame and annoying friends cramping his style.

Look, I'm not gonna lie and say the cast have been used well in the past 10 years, because they haven't, but what the fucking hell is the point of having a cast, if you just want to get rid of them. Oh, they've been terrible, so the obvious solution is to fucking fix them, and no getting rid of them isn't fixing anything, you're just removing an easily fixable problem.

3) Making Sonic games to slow

Sonic 2 was the pinnacle of the hedgehog because it was the game to get the speed absolutely spot on. Some games such as Sonic 4 and the Adventure games either have too much clunky, slow platforming or are too slow paced. This is a Sonic game and the whole purpose of Sonic is to be fast. At least Sonic 1, CD, 3 and Generations got this right (although not to the same master-class as Sonic 2)

Sonic is a platformer, not a racer, just because the games are fast paced doesn't mean Sonic needs to be constantly moving non-stop, and nothing else.

4) Not putting enough time and effort into polish

Sonic Adventure and Sonic 4 are so half-assed it's unbelievable. If I'm paying for a game I want to know that the developers actually bothered with it. Floating around with moon-physics and glitching to death with camera problems seem to be common problems with poor Sonic games. This stuff needs to be completely gone from a game to justify me buying it.

This I won't argue, but the games haven't really been unpolished as of late, and are put together pretty well, Sonic 4 notwithstanding.

(terrible garage rock adventure music

And this is an issue because?

Well seeing as you guys are bigger fans than me these problems probably go round your head all the time.

No, we very much aware of the problems, we just don't advocate "GET RID OF EVERYTHING CUZ I DON'T LIKE IT" it doesn't fix anything, and it's a subtractive process rather than a additional one.

[BarleyFields]

I'll answer this part because it actually has some some small merit

"Protip dude: Sonic games are smarter than you. The message isn't the ultra-simplistic "nature good, machines bad". The message is that unchecked development, done without the consideration of its effects on the world, is dangerous. Sonic CD's good futures are proof of that; they unify nature and technology to create apparent utopias."

'Quote Hella Jeff'

The point of Sonic CD's Good Futures is that the human interventionism has been removed so nature can take over the industry with no consequences. Clearly you did not quite understand the message. The Good Future is only possible because Sonic, moving with the wisdom of nature, topples the humans.

Edited October 28, 2012 by BarleyFields

[Rusty Spy]

To actually argue these points:

1) Humans in Sonic

I played Adventure over my friends' house and this just really got to me. There should not be any humans in a Sonic game besides Dr Robotnik. It makes no sense with blue hedgehogs and orange foxes to then attempt realism by putting humans in. It's stupid and should never be done again. I'm not sure if it has ever been done since because there were no humans in Generations. And thank goodness for that.

The fact that you exclude Eggman as the only 'acceptable' human in the game is completely contradictory to everything else seen in the games. You claim adding humans ruins the 'nature vs machine' message that the classics supposedly were about.

For one that statement is completely false.

Sonic 1's Spring Yard clearly should human structures in the background. Normal buildings that suggested human civilization.

Sonic CD's Good Futures all displayed technology and nature coexisting in harmony.

Sonic 2 gave us Tails, a technological genius who pilots a plane, which, need I remind you, originally belonged to Sonic.

Sonic 3 had areas like Hydrocity and Sky Sanctuary which are consisted of artificial structures.

EDIT:

The point of Sonic CD's Good Futures is that he human interventionism has been removed so nature can take over the industry with no consequences. Clearly you did not quite understand the message. The Good Future is only possible because Sonic, moving with the wisdom of nature, topples the humans.

Even if it were the case that animals were the ones responsible for all the Good Futures, that still makes the bold assumption that all humans are bastards, an argument which has no ground to base itself on. You take it upon yourself to assume that since Eggman is the villain and human, that he represents the entire human race, which is still completely wrong since Eggman works completely alone. No other human entities are responsible for all the destruction and corruption of nature that is created in the games.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Rusty Spy

[batson]

Protip dude: Sonic games are smarter than you. The message isn't the ultra-simplistic "nature good, machines bad". The message is that unchecked development, done without the consideration of its effects on the world, is dangerous. Sonic CD's good futures are proof of that; they unify nature and technology to create apparent utopias.

I highly doubt that this is true. Yeah sure you can read in the more complicated message into the games if you want to, but i very much doubt that this message was the intention by the people who made the games. Simple "what humanity and technology has done to nature is bad" messages were all the rage in kids entertainment back when Sonic was invented, and the message in Sonic was probably intended to be just that and nothing more.

[Blue Wisp]

Some games such as Sonic 4 and the Adventure games either have too much clunky, slow platforming or are too slow paced.

Just because Sonic is the fastest thing alive, it doesn't mean his games need to be senseless speed. Also the humans-in-sonic criticism is really overdone these days

[BarleyFields]

To actually argue these points:

The fact that you exclude Eggman as the only 'acceptable' human in the game is completely contradictory to everything else seen in the games. You claim adding humans ruins the 'nature vs machine' message that the classics supposedly were about.

For one that statement is completely false.

Sonic 1's Spring Yard clearly should human structures in the background. Normal buildings that suggested human civilization.

Sonic CD's Good Futures all displayed technology and nature coexisting in harmony.

Sonic 2 gave us Tails, a technological genius who pilots a plane, which, need I remind you, originally belonged to Sonic.

Sonic 3 had areas like Hydrocity and Sky Sanctuary which are consisted of artificial structures.

Well, contrary to what everyone is saying, I gave a very obvious answer to why Eggman is the exception.

= Well yeah, Spring Yard Zone is where Dr Eggman has taken over with his robots. I fail too see what is positive about this.

I argued the Sonic CD thing on this page

= Tails is an animal and is different to humans. He has a plane but it's small scale and isn't directly threatening the environment and, again, he isn't human.

= Hydrocity is taken over by Eggman and Sky Sanctuary is way up in the sky. It's mysterious and doesn't affect any of the nature around it.

Edited October 28, 2012 by BarleyFields

[Kuzu]

The point of Sonic CD's Good Futures is that the human interventionism has been removed so nature can take over the industry with no consequences. Clearly you did not quite understand the message. The Good Future is only possible because Sonic, moving with the wisdom of nature, topples the humans.

....No, it's not. The entire message of CD is that misuse of technology(eggman) is bad, and that Nature and Technology can co exist with each other, which the good futures make especially obvious by having both nature and technology in harmony.

[Balding Spider]

Humans in Sonic

I played Adventure over my friends' house and this just really got to me. There should not be any humans in a Sonic game besides Dr Robotnik. It makes no sense with blue hedgehogs and orange foxes to then attempt realism by putting humans in. It's stupid and should never be done again. I'm not sure if it has ever been done since because there were no humans in Generations. And thank goodness for that.

If you have Eggman in a Sonic game then it would make sense that other humans would not only exist but also show up at some point in the series, that is unless they established that Eggman was some sort of alien invader or sole survivor of his race which Sonic Team didn't. The biggest problem with the other humans in the Sonic world was that while the Sonic cast looked like stylized toons, while the humans looked far too realistic for the longest time.

Then Sonic Unleashed hit in 2008 and solved that problem. The Humans took on more exaggerated features such as scrawny long legs, large noses, and more expressive faces. For once in the games humans looked like they could co-exist with Sonic and friends.

[BarleyFields]

....No, it's not. The entire message of CD is that misuse of technology(eggman) is bad, and that Nature and Technology can co exist with each other, which the good futures make especially obvious by having both nature and technology in harmony.

That's virtually exactly the same as what I just said.

[Diogenes]

The point of Sonic CD's Good Futures is that the human interventionism has been removed so nature can take over the industry with no consequences.

Nature doesn't build goddamn cities. The bad futures are bad not because Eggman is human, but because he's a selfish, inconsiderate jerk. If they wanted the good futures to represent the triumph of nature over man, they would've been entirely natural locations rather than nature and technology interwoven. It's an insult to the series to claim it's advocating such a simplistic point.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I think I will outline the biggest problems that Sonic games in general face. As I am not a hardcore fan I am therefore the least biased person to make such claims. Here are the problems (in no order):

Excuse me? Well guess we'd better shut down the SSMB. We're not open minded enough to make such claims.

1) Humans in Sonic

I played Adventure over my friends' house and this just really got to me. There should not be any humans in a Sonic game besides Dr Robotnik. It makes no sense with blue hedgehogs and orange foxes to then attempt realism by putting humans in. It's stupid and should never be done again. I'm not sure if it has ever been done since because there were no humans in Generations. And thank goodness for that.

I'm just going to address this one...

Do you know what year it is? It is 2012.

Time has moved on. People have moved on. Society has moved on.

This claim about Sonic being pro-enviornmental humans equal bad might have been a popular metaphor for the early Sonic games. But now it's laughable... why is it laughable? Because human beings are not the wild environmental destroying force that childrens media paints. Especially 90's media.

Since the late 1990's there has been a rather noticable drive for envionmentalism. You can see it everywhere with many industrialised nations trying to set targets for emission reduction and recycling. Put aside the argument as to if they could do more or if many make those targets, the fact is, most nations are at least trying.

Even down to the individual, in the last 3 years here in the UK, many people now have become more eco friendly compared to how they were in the 80's and early 90's.

So no, I don't think humans in Sonic games is that stupid considering human society is moving towards a more pro-enviornmental stance in real life.

What was the story of Avatar all about? The big message and focal point of the storyline?

Should I point out now that the military would have won had it not been for the intervention of humans? Because the blue aliens were pretty much waiting to be killed when their tree is destroyed as it wasn't just their home but a symbol for their power and society?

Furthermore, I seem to recall in that movie the goal of the military was that they wanted this mineral and wanted the highest concentration of it... even though the beings who lived on the planet wanted to work with the humans despite their distrust and several scenes show the environmentalists pointed out several areas where the military could mine for the mineral. The reason against this was greed, but the movie showed that human intervention was both a bad and a good thing.

In fact bringing this Avatar argument up actually shows that like with the movie, humans have attempted to live in a co-existance with the Sonic characters, however some humans so not desire too, in the case of Sonic, that human is Eggman.

[Gregzilla]

The point of Sonic CD's Good Futures is that the human interventionism has been removed so nature can take over the industry with no consequences. Clearly you did not quite understand the message. The Good Future is only possible because Sonic, moving with the wisdom of nature, topples the humans.

I'm sorry, what??

Sonic has never been about "humans vs. nature" or "humanity is evil." The old games highlighted the dangers of too much industrialization. Eggman was used to show this. He was an evil human scientist, but the games never act like ALL humans are the cause of nature's problems.

Besides, Sonic and company are fighting to save the world mainly for the good of other humans. And they have made human friends.

[Kuzu]

That's virtually exactly the same as what I just said.

No, you said that humans suck and Sonic winning means nature rules, if that's what you meant to say, you probably should have worded it better.

[BarleyFields]

Nature doesn't build goddamn cities. The bad futures are bad not because Eggman is human, but because he's a selfish, inconsiderate jerk. If they wanted the good futures to represent the triumph of nature over man, they would've been entirely natural locations rather than nature and technology interwoven. It's an insult to the series to claim it's advocating such a simplistic point.

Eggman represents a message about humans. That's blindingly obvious. The reason the Good Future is industrialised is because nature is adapting to something that has already happened in the present.

No, you said that humans suck and Sonic winning means nature rules, if that's what you meant to say, you probably should have worded it better.

I don't think you actually understand what you are saying

Excuse me? Well guess we'd better shut down the SSMB. We're not open minded enough to make such claims.

I'm just going to address this one since I just can't be bothered...

Do you know what year it is? It is 2012.

Time has moved on. People have moved on. Society has moved on.

This claim about Sonic being pro-enviornmental humans equal bad might have been a popular metaphor for the early Sonic games. But now it's laughable... why is it laughable? Because human beings are not the wild environmental destroying force that childrens media paints. Especially 90's media.

You don't have to agree with it. I don't. But it was obviously the message of the games.

[hangarninetysix]

Sonic 2 was the pinnacle of the hedgehog

I think you have a rather serious case of the nostalgia goggles.

[BarleyFields]

I think you have a rather serious case of the nostalgia goggles.

Except it's true and virtually all professional critics agree.

Unless your opinion is somehow superior.