Sonic Generations: Two Years Later

[Wraith]

Well if you and a few other people didn't do such a good job at legitimizing that opinion, then I wouldn't have it. The latest topic kind of speaks for itself.

Are you kidding? I don't approve of that bullshit positivity topic.

[Kuzu]

Are you kidding? I don't approve of that bullshit positivity topic.

Then stop assuming I'm the immature one here.

[Bright Eyes]

Then stop assuming I'm the immature one here.

I think we all need to relax here.

Would Sonic want us to bicker among ourselves?

He would say: "that's no use!"

(No wait, that would be Silver)

Edited October 27, 2012 by Bright Eyes

[Mr. Taxi]

I think we all need to relax here.

Would Sonic want us to bicker among ourselves?

He would say: "that's no use!"

(No wait, that would be Silver)

Surgical intervention, milady. We all need a cooldown.

[Kuzu]

SO HOW ABOUT THAT MUSIC!!!

[Wraith]

SO HOW ABOUT THAT MUSIC!!!

That remix of "Door to Summer" is the greatest thing in the world.

[Soniman]

SO HOW ABOUT THAT MUSIC!!!

The one thing I'm sure everyone can agree one is that Generations had excellent music.

[Wraith]

I think the greatest missed oppurtunity of the game was that they didn't remix this song.

This song is the greatest thing from any Sonic game ever.

[...]

The one thing I'm sure everyone can agree one is that Generations had excellent music.

But the final boss music was terrible.

[Soniman]

But the final boss music was terrible.

Id say it's just really bland.

[Kuzu]

But the final boss music was terrible.

Eh, it's alright, it's just doesn't have the "oomph" I expect from the Final Boss themes.

Modern City Escape pleases me, every time.

[DarkLight]

Generations is one of those games where it's hard to choose which track is your favorite. I loved most of the Modern tracks (Chemical Plant, Crisis City, Planet Wisp,) quite liked Classic's redition of City Escape and even the Time Eater's theme was okay (reminescent of Solaris Phase 1 in regard to the Latin chanting it had).

Edited October 27, 2012 by DarkLightDragon

[Balding Spider]

But the final boss music was terrible.

Fitting, as boss was as well.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I've gotten into the habit of thinking of Egg Dragoon as the final boss of the game, since it's the last boss that uses the gameplay of the rest of the game, and isn't completely broken. Time Eater is just a playable cutscene, because when you know what the fuck you're supposed to do against that boss it's trivially easy.

You know, like Yu Yevon in Final Fantasy X.

Like many the boss I was dreading coming into the game was Silver, and that turned out to be my favourite versus-same-sized-opponent type boss in the series.

[Nepenthe]

SO HOW ABOUT THAT MUSIC!!!

I mean...it's almost all remixes. It would be very, very hard for the ever-renowned musicians working at Sonic Team to completely cock up this game's soundtrack, and it would've been amazing if they had.

Regardless, I do have a soft spot in my heart for Modern Chemical Plant. It seems like that song gets no real love, but I think it hits that sweet spot in sounding properly remixed but without losing the original essence of the song and becoming lost in the sea of infinitely more familiar tunes. Every other song to me sounds almost the same as its original counterpart or I just don't remember what it sounds like all too well, the only exception being Green Hill (cuz yanno, it's Green Hill). But not Modern Chemical Plant. Just slowing the song's tempo and changing the instrumentation, as well as that little electronic introduction, gives it and thus the level a different feeling altogether, but the important chords are still there and its recognizable as Chemical Plant. I really, really like that song.

[Wraith]

Dem white world remixes. I love em to death.

[Soniman]

Yeah, Modern Speed Highway, Planet Wisp and Seaside Hill fall into the category of not sounding all that remixed for remixes.

[Kuzu]

I'm pretty fond of Classic Rooftop Run, it just sounds so....upbeat.

[D-Metal X]

I'm proud to be one of the few who liked the Time Eater battle music. That and the setting of the battle were so good. It's a shame the gameplay was pretty bad. That music would have gone really well with the Devil Doom boss fight from Shadow, thinking about it.

As for the rest of the game, I like it. It has solid gameplay and pretty well designed stages. I was impressed with the flow of the Classic gameplay, except for Planet Wisp, especially with that awesome insta-Spin Dash button, which was literally my favorite aspect of the game. The Modern gameplay was excellent. It was just a better Unleashed Daytime formula, to me.

And the Toxic Cave remix is awesome with Modern Chemical Plant.

Edited October 27, 2012 by D-Metal X

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

But the final boss music was terrible.

Well, the final boss was terrible so the music for it fit it perfectly.

[Wraith]

One thing I don't like about the music? Modern planet wisp.

They basically sucked all of the joy out of it, which is kinda fitting. Where's that sexy bass?

[Linkabel]

There's worse problems with the story than that. The settings and characters are wholly underutilized as far as tying them to the narrative with any purpose or meaning. You could replace every level and boss with another one arbitrarily and waste the extended cast altogether and you'd not fundamentally change anything because the story doesn't rely on any of that to function; at the end of the day, it's not really about anything except for Sonic stopping Eggman yet again. Everything else that you see is just wholly irrelevant.

Even worse is that the development between the characters that are there is nonexistent. All of the Classic and Modern fodder we get is relegated to about two moments: the mirror scene, and the scene with the red Chaos Emerald. Just massive wasted potential all around; to see Modern Sonic significantly reacting to things he's already experienced and perhaps being surprised at their differences (no really, why is Perfect Chaos green?) and Classic Sonic being curious of the new levels and perhaps getting into some trouble as a result would've been great stuff to watch.

There's also some gaping plotholes that make me believe that there was more to the story but it was all left on the cutting room floor. It's so sloppy that there's no other explanation. Like when the characters talk about interacting with the Time Eater or at least being aware of what's going on for example, even though we clearly saw everyone sucked up at the party and frozen after that, an experience Modern Tails equates to "being dead." So how does Vector even come to the conclusion that it's possible someone's controlling Time Eater when he'd been frozen all the time? When in the world did Blaze fight the monster enough to conclude that she was unable to stop it? How was Espio able to sense anything?

And ultimately, how did Modern Sonic get out of being trapped in that black alternate dimension?.... How did either Sonic even get in there? What is it? How do you move about in it? The whole time we were told that beyond the levels, the only thing that existed at the time was White Space, so....

Yeah, the whole damn thing's just a mess.

Well I agree in that the story had more potential, I think you are really asking for more fan service and to explain gameplay elements:

(no really, why is Perfect Chaos green?)

I think this is more on the design they went for and not specifically that Perfect Chaos was different (at least in the game universe)

Modern Sonic significantly reacting to things he's already experienced and perhaps being surprised at their differences

Again I attribute this to design choices, plus there are not that much differences. "Hey why is the board I'm using not part of the helicopter from Gun?!" "What is there a festival in Spagonia?" etc etc.....it just would have become old. Plus they did made some references (also I believed in the Japanese version they were more exact, like actually referencing that they recognized Chemical Plant)

But again this is just fan service and I don't more of it equals a better story

like when the characters talk about interacting with the Time Eater or at least being aware of what's going on for example, even though we clearly saw everyone sucked up at the party and frozen after that, an experience Modern Tails equates to "being dead." So how does Vector even come to the conclusion that it's possible someone's controlling Time Eater when he'd been frozen all the time? When in the world did Blaze fight the monster enough to conclude that she was unable to stop it? How was Espio able to sense anything?

In Tails dialogue it is implied he had some kind of "being" in the zone but he used the "being dead" to exaggerate. That means that Vector had a lot of time to think using his "detective skills", Blaze tried to fight out of that limbo, and Espio....is a ninja.

I do agree the use of the characters in the story could have been used better though.

And ultimately, how did Modern Sonic get out of being trapped in that black alternate dimension?.... How did either Sonic even get in there? What is it? How do you move about in it? The whole time we were told that beyond the levels, the only thing that existed at the time was White Space, so....

How did they get there? Through the boss gate. And how did they get out? Through the boss gate

Apart from being a gameplay element (really it's like asking, "who made those portals in Unleashed and how do they send you to the boss and how do you get back?") You can also say that they are part of White Space. Also if you see the portals seem mechanized which probably meant that Eggman made them.

I mean I see why you are curious, for example ever since Ocarina of Time I wondered "So how come after defeating a boss a light appears and takes you outside? Who makes them?" but again they are just gameplay elements.

If there's anything worse than a bare-bones story, is a story that takes you by the hand and explains everything.

There's worse problems with the story than that. The settings and characters are wholly underutilized as far as tying them to the narrative with any purpose or meaning. You could replace every level and boss with another one arbitrarily and waste the extended cast altogether and you'd not fundamentally change anything because the story doesn't rely on any of that to function; at the end of the day, it's not really about anything except for Sonic stopping Eggman yet again.

I still don't see what's wrong with that, after all hasn't that been always the story? Plus you have to remember that the level list was picked as a poll and not thinking of the story:

“We took a democratic approach. We only get to celebrate Sonic’s 20th birthday once, so we wanted to make sure everyone got a say. What we did was poll every Sega worker – including those in Europe and America – and asked them to nominate their favourite Sonic levels of all time. Then we did some research with the core fanbase and we were able to draw up a shortlist from there.” – Takashi Iizuka

http://segabits.com/blog/2011/05/11/oxm-reveals-how-they-picked-levels-for-sonic-generation/

To me, it does seem that they story went through some cuts and I hope one day we find out why. To me the purpose of this game was just for the player to pick up the controller and start playing like in the old days. Could the story being longer? Yes. But I think you know how complicated time traveling stories already are (and I guess it would be more difficult about a blue talking hedgehog). So I think Sonic Team made the right call at least for this title.

.......now if they just would have gotten the guys that wrote Looper then.... ...JK

[Mr. Awesomest]

Sorry I'm taking so long with this stuff. More posts keep coming in and I have to read them. Plus I got this weird message that said "open quote tags don't match ending quote tags" and I had to rework it all.

Wait...expecting a decent story like those of the games that came before Generations is bias now?

What you're thinking of is a standard. By bias, I meant bias in favor of the story over other aspects of the game. As in, hoping the story will be great, while not thinking all that much on the gameplay, the main attraction. Sonic Team tried to minimize the smaller, less popular aspects and maximize the gameplay, in order to try to salvage their reputation and make a good game. The bias is okay, you can enjoy a video game for the story, until it gets to the point where you lose sight to what a video game is.

Oh, as somebody who's used to taking a lot of tests; The essay and short answer questions are but one part that make up the whole test, they may yield more points, but you're not going to pass on that a lone, the Multiple choice questions may yield smaller points, but any amount of points help get you that better grade. I'd rather do decently in all aspects than neglect one while focus on another.

Yes, and the whole test is Sonic Generations. Decency in all aspects only results in being a jack of all trades. This means decent gameplay, decent soundtrack, decent graphics, and a decent story. Look at all the other games: everyone is always trying to ace something. Trying to appeal to all or fill in a niche. Why? Because everyone else is doing it, and it's the only way to compete. The game you're saying you'd rather do, "decent in all aspects", would mean decent story, decent graphics, decent soundtrack, and decent gameplay. Not only would it get stomped in the market, but it would be remembered as just decent. Not good, not bad. Just meh. Instead of people would look back to it, and think "man, this game was fun as hell, but MAN what was going on in it?", people wouldn't be able to say much more than "meh". And that's not good for an anniversary game. That's worse than what we got.

I've based my opinion of Generations as much on the fact that the story is indeed utter crap as I have its wasted potential. Even if didn't meet some of my fanatical expectations, that doesn't excuse the fact that the story is still tripe in its own right which invariably hurts the game.

This misrepresentation of my argument is even worse when you pair it with whole "Wow, you expected Sonic Team to write a good story to please you?" strawman. Writing a decent story is not bending over backwards to some extremist demographic. To suggest as such once again legitimizes this strange idea that everything else in a game can be bad so long as the gameplay's okay which in turn hurts the collective quality of games as a whole.

It also simultaneously devalues everyone involved in creating these stories as being completely irrelevant to the process and experience which I think is short-sighted: the scenario planners, the script writers, Roger and the rest of the actors, the entire studio(s) responsible for the cut scenes. They're important. If nothing else, they're all getting paid to do a single job. The least I can expect of all of them, regardless of my self-described status as a fan, is to do that single job decently. I don't even need Shakespearean material; Black Knight levels of storytelling would suffice.

You lose sight that it is a video game, valuing the story much more than the core gameplay. Or, at least that is how I am reading your argument. I mean, that's what you bought it for, right? Actually playing the game, and not going on youtube and watching someone else play? Do I have to make a new post, because you cannot represent yourself in a way that others can properly interpret? You made it so that all I see is you caring for the story and nothing else at all in the slightest, like it does not even matter. The quality of the game as a whole would be improved if there was a better story, but the main point I've been trying to make here is that it would not be effected as much if it was botched. That's seriously all I see you saying. You may have to interpret your words better.

And Sonic and the Black Knight storytelling was very good, so that's pretty high expectations right there.

You completely missed the point I made that the analogy you're making is fundamentally flawed at the core, thus it doesn't matter how much you try to further elaborate upon it; it's still a bad analogy.

A work of art is not a school test because a school test relies on some sort of objective universal standard in order to determine whether or not the answers across a range of performances are "right" or "wrong," and subsequently which percentage of "right" and "wrong" answers gives which specific letter grade. Art actually does have some sort of objective standards, but rather these are called "principles" (dialogue goes into quotation marks, orange is a warm color, the player should not be able to fall through a solid surface), and the quality of the work in question does not rely upon them exclusively (in other words, you can break a principle if it helps your artwork in some way). It relies much more on the collective subjective experience of the audience in question and whatever their own metrics for "good" and "bad" are, not necessarily "right" and "wrong."

In other words, if a person finds a story to be very important to experience of a game, their opinion on its own is just as valid as a person who believes the story is not very important. But there's only one damn correct answer on a multiple choice test.

I mean, there's just so much wrong with saying a game, or any other work of art, can be directly analogous to a school test that I can't even seriously entertain answering your idea directly that the story of a game, even a Sonic game, is directly comparable to one single multiple choice question beyond calling it absolutely bonkers.

On essays, you aren't really "right" or "wrong" to begin with, as essays are usually "Wubba dubba dubba, is that true? Explain why it is or isn't and provide examples to back your claim" and you are graded on how you do them, not on what you answered. Something in the background can be done good or bad, and it would not drag the work down if it's a failure or become a jetpack if it's a success. The story is still bad, sure, but it's only a minor flaw, because it takes the backseat to the gameplay in general.

If you view it as an unimportant thing, good. If you view the story as a very important thing, that's fine too. If you get to the point where you're ravenous when it isn't satisfying, that's when I draw the line and believe you need to straighten out your priorities.

The fuck?

The story in Sonic Generations isn't some massive support piece that matters as much as the gameplay as it does in Mass Effect.

On the topic of things I liked, I personally think Crisis City was great. The stomp puzzles and ending sprint excluded, of course. Other than that, I'd say that's how I'd like my average Sonic level to be like.

[Milo]

I actually didn't really perfer some of the Classic remixes of some music-namely Classic Planet Wisp, in which I think a 16-bit rearrangement of the

would had been much more appropriate if not perfect. And some of the remixes of songs from the classic era (Flying Battery for starters) sounded like MIDI rearrangements of the original.

Otherwise, the soundtrack I'd say is one of the best soundtracks I've heard in years, even if it is just a bunch of remixes. Hell, I'd say the only reason why I would really dislike the soundtrack is because there weren't more remixes.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Zinos

[Nepenthe]

Well I agree in that the story had more potential, I think you are really asking for more fan service and to explain gameplay elements:

I'm not asking for fan service. Fan service is exactly what we got; nostalgic things thrown in for no rhyme or reason other than to give fans a reason to smile for about four hours. I'm asking for answers to things that serve to either hinder the story or just don't make any sense in the context of the plot. Perfect Chaos was merely an example, but more on that point, him looking different when no other boss really does is a contradiction within the rules this game has set up and is also blatantly noticeable to anyone who even knows what Chaos looks like, and the worst thing is, that and every other change could've just been easily explained away by "Time Eater's mucking about with things as he proceeds to wipe away the world." This isn't fan service at all.

There's also a rule about storytelling in general that I'm learning in school: When you pose a question or a contradiction within a narrative, you're obligated to give an answer to your audience lest you want your story to be a confusing mess or intentionally vague, and I highly doubt Sonic Team was aiming for any part of Generations' story to end on an ambiguous note.

In Tails dialogue it is implied he had some kind of "being" in the zone but he used the "being dead" to exaggerate. That means that Vector had a lot of time to think using his "detective skills", Blaze tried to fight out of that limbo, and Espio....is a ninja.

That does not explain anything. Even if we assume they were fully conscious, how does any of their dialogue make sense when we are given no indication that they met Time Eater or interacted with anything other than what we can assume is some ambiguous plane of existence? They say things that do not indicate they're talking about merely floating around in limbo, but rather were completely conscious of everything that was going on and actually met Time Eater on their own, but without any establishment on part of the writers, this oversight still exists as a plot hole.

How did they get there? Through the boss gate. And how did they get out? Through the boss gate

Apart from being a gameplay element (really it's like asking, "who made those portals in Unleashed and how do they send you to the boss and how do you get back?") You can also say that they are part of White Space. Also if you see the portals seem mechanized which probably meant that Eggman made them.

Hmm. Good explanation; I suppose "it's just the boss gate" is a valid explanation considering the Eggman boss was on the other side of the door.

However, that black mirror dimension is not a gameplay element akin to the level portals in Unleashed. It's in a actual cutscene that goes on for almost an entire minute, which in turn gives it a higher element of importance in regards to the narrative. There's also nothing sans Eggman talking we're given to suggest we're supposed to know where they are because there is absolutely no establishment. We see no one go in or come out of anywhere, and we see no set up. This scene literally pops right out of nowhere, and it's pretty bad as a result.

I mean I see why you are curious, for example ever since Ocarina of Time I wondered "So how come after defeating a boss a light appears and takes you outside? Who makes them?" but again they are just gameplay elements.

If there's anything worse than a bare-bones story, is a story that takes you by the hand and explains everything.

I'm not asking for hand-holding to explain away gameplay-centric elements. I'm not asking to know "where the rings go." I'm just asking for a story that makes sense. xP

I still don't see what's wrong with that, after all hasn't that been always the story?

Not really. There are themes, character arcs, and locations that most of the 3D games rely upon for their stories as we know them to work. For example, SA1's story cannot continue to function if you remove Chaos entirely. On the other hand, if you take Perfect Chaos out of Generations then you lose absolutely nothing because he's not in any way relevant to the conflict, therefore he's a wasted element on top of being a less engaging boss anyway. This goes for literally every single level, boss (sans Time Eater), and secondary character in Generations.

To me, it does seem that they story went through some cuts and I hope one day we find out why. To me the purpose of this game was just for the player to pick up the controller and start playing like in the old days. Could the story being longer? Yes. But I think you know how complicated time traveling stories already are (and I guess it would be more difficult about a blue talking hedgehog). So I think Sonic Team made the right call at least for this title.

What I always say to that is that if the player doesn't want a story to get in the way of their gameplay, they can take the time to push the Start button and skip it all and leave me to enjoy my narrative as I see fit. There's no reason everyone in this situation cannot be catered to simultaneously considering the Skip option has been available since, well, the beginning of gaming history. xD

You lose sight that it is a video game, valuing the story much more than the core gameplay. Or, at least that is how I am reading your argument. I mean, that's what you bought it for, right? Actually playing the game, and not going on youtube and watching someone else play? Do I have to make a new post, because you cannot represent yourself in a way that others can properly interpret? You made it so that all I see is you caring for the story and nothing else at all in the slightest, like it does not even matter. The quality of the game as a whole would be improved if there was a better story, but the main point I've been trying to make here is that it would not be effected as much if it was botched. That's seriously all I see you saying. You may have to interpret your words better.

The only reason I'm harping on the story so much is because people keep making this topic about the game's story.

Some of you guys seem ridiculously offended by the thought that others thinking the story was crap is enough of a flaw of the game that brought its enjoyability down some that you continue arguing with me and others as if this viewpoint is outright factually wrong or needs to be culled from the collective thought or something, which in turn is prompting me and others to respond on this single silly little point and defend our thoughts, especially when people write shit like "Why do you guys care about story so much anyway?!! It's a game!!!" (Yeah, a game with a story.) If you don't want me to continue harping on the story so hard, then stop responding to me about the story and let's talk about something else.

On essays, you aren't really "right" or "wrong" to begin with, as essays are usually "Wubba dubba dubba, is that true? Explain why it is or isn't and provide examples to back your claim" and you are graded on how you do them, not on what you answered. Something in the background can be done good or bad, and it would not drag the work down if it's a failure or become a jetpack if it's a success. The story is still bad, sure, but it's only a minor flaw, because it takes the backseat to the gameplay in general.

You are right or wrong on an essay question as being right or wrong is the only way to get any points on it. Generally, these things are graded by key words used and concepts explained, as well as objective things like spelling and punctuation, and this is especially so if the question asks for objective evidence like "examples." And once again, they're multiple essays getting funneled through one source to determine their quality against a standard that has already been set. This is not the same as art, which is a piece of work funneled through multiple groups for the purpose of engaging them, and what engages one person does not engage another, effectively making it impossible for a work of art to stand up against some kind of universal "standard" as if it were a school test. This is why the analogy is bad and why I am now imploring you to stop using it.

And Generations' story is not a minor flaw because it takes a backseat to the gameplay. S3&K's story takes a backseat to gameplay, yet this doesn't make it particularly flawed, especially since it's a decent story anyway. However, Generations' story is a major flaw because it's crap in its own right, and it's glaringly, painfully obvious that it's crap.

If you view it as an unimportant thing, good. If you view the story as a very important thing, that's fine too. If you get to the point where you're ravenous when it isn't satisfying, that's when I draw the line and believe you need to straighten out your priorities.

Or you could assume I'm being ravenous in defending my viewpoint because people keep responding to me in debate instead of thinking I need to "straighten out my priorities" and tow to the arbitrary line you've drawn in the sand. Again, I wouldn't be responding this much about the story if this topic hadn't essentially become about the story. If you're so upset by this revelation that you need to resort to implying I'm wrong for being aggressive about my viewpoint, it could all be mitigated if you just stopped responding to me directly about the subject and advocated some different subjects. I just made a decent post about the music, and I also discussed how I felt about the modern gameplay by comparing Generations' take on it with Unleashed's. You could have very well quoted those posts and we'd be off on another discussion, but here we are again talking about the story, and yet you're putting the onus on me to stop being so "ravenous" about it as if I'm acting as such in a vacuum.

The story in Sonic Generations isn't some massive support piece that matters as much as the gameplay as it does in Mass Effect.

That was in response to the idea that you think being disappointed with the game in some respects because the story was bad is a "radical" viewpoint. I literally could not think of anything else to type in response to that. It really is a "what the fuck" statement.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Meito Anizawa