Sonic Generations: Two Years Later

[Nepenthe]

... The voice overs were horrible? ;~;

[Solkia]

I like Modern Chemical Plant too Nepenthe. It was my most replayed level.

I like the remixes from the most part, but I was really dissapointed that Classic Speed Highway didn't take place in the second half of the original level, complete with a remix of At Dawn.

[Nepenthe]

Well, I was mostly talking about the song. Modern Chemical Plant's cool, but ironically, I think my most replayed level was actually Classic Crisis City. I did so for the time trial. I don't know what it was about that specific challenge, but I absolutely wanted the most perfect run I could muster on it. I suppose utilizing all of the bouncing mechanisms got addictive, because there's a few places where a well placed jump will throw you pretty far and allow you to skip some things as Sonic just skips across enemies and things. =P That was fun.

[Solkia]

I was too< I was just adding in that it was my most replayed level

[Kuzu]

... The voice overs were horrible? ;~;

*Insert obligatory "YOU GOT DIS SAWNIK" quote here*

[T-Min]

No component to a game being good really justifies any of the other ones being shitty, because the fact remains that a good game with a good story will always be better than a good game with a bad story.

But would a good game with a good story automatically be better than a great game with a bad story? Colors had both solid gameplay and a good storyline (imo), but I still preferred Generations. Heck, even better example. I enjoy both the gameplay and the story of Sonic Adventure 2, but to say that it's better than Generations is pretty much a logical fallacy. Really, I don't mind that Generations had a more barebones story than a lot of previous Sonic games for the same reason I don't mind that Super Mario Galaxy 2 had a more barebones story than Galaxy 1: the gameplay and level design more than made up for it.

And besides...am I really the only one who kinda liked the storyline of Gens? I mean, sure, there's not much to it, but personally, I still enjoyed what was there. The interactions between Classic Sonic and Tails and their older counterparts, the exchanges with the other characters, bits of funny dialogue and, most of all, the plot twist regarding the Time Eater, which I still say basically makes it SEGA's best trolling attempt ever, all gave me plenty of enjoyment even if there was more that could have been done with it. I certainly don't think Generations is an example to be followed in terms of how to create Sonic storylines, but for what it was, it was pretty good.

Actually, to be honest, if it weren't for Classic Sonic's rolling and the fact that Modern Sonic's controls are still slightly "off", I'd argue that Generations is nigh-on perfect. I absolutely love almost everything about it, and I'd call it not only one of my favorite Sonic games, but also one of my favorite platformers period. It's excellent.

[Diogenes]

But would a good game with a good story automatically be better than a great game with a bad story?

Who cares. This is completely beside any point worth giving a shit about.

[pppp]

Who cares. This is completely beside any point worth giving a shit about.

Hum...thanks for not contributing anything to the discussion. If you don't care about what's being debated don't post in here.

[Mr. Taxi]

The word "better" seriously bothers me. 90% of the time, people using the word "better" to discuss are discussing completely different things.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Palas

[Nepenthe]

@ T-Man: Well, you're comparing apples to oranges now. A game that's good with a good story is inherently worse than a great game with a bad story, because you've already characterized the games' overall quality with that statement! =P One game is good and one is great, and this is regardless of their stories' quality. This is a different situation entirely.

What I'm saying is that, barring all other factors, if you have two games of roughly similar or equal quality with the exception of their storytelling, the game with the better story is ultimately better. I don't use this logic to justify having a shit game with a good story. My point is that every single component of a game should ideally be good! The story should be good, as should the music, the graphics, the framerate, everything the designers choose to include along with the gameplay!

Note: The story being on the backburner to gameplay, or even being non-existent as is the case for Mario, doesn't inherently make it bad either, as people continue to imply from my arguments. As I said before: S3&K's story takes a backseat, but that's okay because it's still a good story in its own right. Generations' story has many problems I can note regardless of how relevant it is to the overall package, thus it's still a pretty bad story.

Honestly, the bigger question is: why are we even at the point where we have to choose between either good gameplay or good story? Do we not have any faith in game designers or simply don't care for them to deliver on everything?

In fact, why am I actually having to argue that having a bad story is undesirable?

[T-Min]

@ T-Man: Well, you're comparing apples to oranges now. A game that's good with a good story is inherently worse than a great game with a bad story, because you've already characterized the games' overall quality with that statement! =P One game is good and one is great, and this is regardless of their stories' quality. This is a different situation entirely.p

Eh, well...what I meant was a great game in terms of gameplay/design only. Could have been a bit more clear on that.

You have a point, I suppose.

Carry on.

[Linkabel]

Perfect Chaos was merely an example, but more on that point, him looking different when no other boss really does is a contradiction within the rules this game has set up and is also blatantly noticeable to anyone who even knows what Chaos looks like, and the worst thing is, that and every other change could've just been easily explained away by "Time Eater's mucking about with things as he proceeds to wipe away the world." This isn't fan service at all.

There's also a rule about storytelling in general that I'm learning in school: When you pose a question or a contradiction within a narrative, you're obligated to give an answer to your audience lest you want your story to be a confusing mess or intentionally vague, and I highly doubt Sonic Team was aiming for any part of Generations' story to end on an ambiguous note.

Each boss is different, even though the differences between Egg Robo/Egg Dragoon and their original counterparts are not as noticeable as Perfect Chaos' but they are different. Again, apart from the cast everything from the past games is changed to some degree, so I don't see how Perfect Chaos contradicts that. It goes with the design philosophy of the game.

These differences are for the players and doesn't really affect the in-game universe. Going by your logic we should also get an explanation on why one Sonic has green eyes and the other one has black eyes.....and we don't really need that.

That does not explain anything. Even if we assume they were fully conscious, how does any of their dialogue make sense when we are given no indication that they met Time Eater or interacted with anything other than what we can assume is some ambiguous plane of existence? They say things that do not indicate they're talking about merely floating around in limbo, but rather were completely conscious of everything that was going on and actually met Time Eater on their own, but without any establishment on part of the writers, this oversight still exists as a plot hole.

Considering that when the Time Eater appears all the characters see him (except Metal Sonic, Shadow, and Silver), that they all see how he opened the "portals", and then get sucked in I think we can assume that at least they know of his presence and power. Even Blaze's comment makes sense in that even with all her power she was not able to escape the monster's power in that moment.

Again I don't see a plothole (except in the part of the rivals, but even then you can assume their were capture on their own like Classic Sonic and Classic Tails)

Hmm. Good explanation; I suppose "it's just the boss gate" is a valid explanation considering the Eggman boss was on the other side of the door.

However, that black mirror dimension is not a gameplay element akin to the level portals in Unleashed. It's in a actual cutscene that goes on for almost an entire minute, which in turn gives it a higher element of importance in regards to the narrative. There's also nothing sans Eggman talking we're given to suggest we're supposed to know where they are because there is absolutely no establishment. We see no one go in or come out of anywhere, and we see no set up. This scene literally pops right out of nowhere, and it's pretty bad as a result.

I'm not asking for hand-holding to explain away gameplay-centric elements. I'm not asking to know "where the rings go." I'm just asking for a story that makes sense. xP

I don't know if you watch this show, but there's this show called Supernatural. It's about two brothers that hunt supernatural beings etc etc. In one episode they have to go to Hollywood where there is a ghost killing people and they have to infiltrate the film crew.

So in a case of self-parodying in one scene of the movie they are talking about how they could summon ghosts. An inept executive there suddenly says, "how can ghosts hear the summoning if they are in hell?" "The viewer is going to get lost." So the script was changed to the character having to tell the viewer that the reason why is because Ghosts have "super hearing"

It would have been the same thing for that scene. The purpose of the mirror scene was mainly more about the two Sonic meeting and doing sheningas rather than showing you this "alternate dimension".

If there would have been an explanation right there and then it would have broken the purpose of that scene. Sure you could have Tails explain it later but like the Supernatural scene it would have been something as stupid as, "It seems that Two Sonics traveling through these locations bring back life and light to their world!"

Not really. There are themes, character arcs, and locations that most of the 3D games rely upon for their stories as we know them to work. For example, SA1's story cannot continue to function if you remove Chaos entirely. On the other hand, if you take Perfect Chaos out of Generations then you lose absolutely nothing because he's not in any way relevant to the conflict, therefore he's a wasted element on top of being a less engaging boss anyway. This goes for literally every single level, boss (sans Time Eater), and secondary character in Generations.

The characters arcs would really not work in this game because A) The whole point is that everyone gets captured and If you were to show what every character is doing or their actions then you might as well make a movie rather than a game, completely ruining the flow of the game. In the other game it works because you play as the character so you can focus on them, in Generations you don't.

The levels and bosses were chosen in polls. Even though people like to say that being an anniversary doesn't make it an excuse, in some ways it does. The game is primarily an anniversary game and Sonic Team wanted to include all the "great moments" from Sonic history. Sure, taking Perfect Chaos out of the game doesn't affect the story but it does affect the purpose of the game (In taking away the first final boss from Sonic's 3D history).

I mean I can argue the same thing about levels and bosses from SA1. Does taking away Windy Valley, Casinopolis or Ice Cap take anything away from the story if you replace with other completely levels? Does taking out the Egg Viper and replacing with something else affect the story? If I take out everyone but Sonic & Knuckles do I really change the theme of the story that was Chaos and the past Echidnat tribe?

What I always say to that is that if the player doesn't want a story to get in the way of their gameplay, they can take the time to push the Start button and skip it all and leave me to enjoy my narrative as I see fit. There's no reason everyone in this situation cannot be catered to simultaneously considering the Skip option has been available since, well, the beginning of gaming history. xD

You can always skip cutscenes but that doesn't change the fact that somewhere along the line Sonic Team either thought the story was not worth it because it was too silly, didn't have the resources, ran out of time, were too stupid, or the higher ups were too stupid and told them not to do it.

I'm not getting butthurt about the complains and I do think the story does have its flaws, but they are not as big or destroys the experience of the game as everyone is making them out to be.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I'm not getting butthurt about the complains and I do think the story does have its flaws, but they are not as big or destroys the experience of the game as everyone is making them out to be.

Just cause it doesn't destroy the experience or isn't all that important for other people doesn't make me wish any less that it could have been FAR BETTER than what it is right now.

[Frogging101]

Who cares. This is completely beside any point worth giving a shit about.

Actually I thought it was a great question. If you don't give a shit about it then just ignore it and if you want to contribute something, post about something relevant that you do care about. There's really no need to be a dick.

[Nepenthe]

Each boss is different, even though the differences between Egg Robo/Egg Dragoon and their original counterparts are not as noticeable as Perfect Chaos' but they are different. Again, apart from the cast everything from the past games is changed to some degree, so I don't see how Perfect Chaos contradicts that. It goes with the design philosophy of the game.

These differences are for the players and doesn't really affect the in-game universe. Going by your logic we should also get an explanation on why one Sonic has green eyes and the other one has black eyes.....and we don't really need that.

As I said before, my initial mentioning of Perfect Chaos' blatant design differences was a mere example of the ultimate point I was trying to make: Modern Sonic should ideally be aware of the differences between all of the bosses and levels, and it would've been nice to see him remark on that. At most, we got a few comments about that in the beginning before the story proceeded to drop off the precipice and all of the potential ideas for the whole gimmick of the game were left on the cutting room floor. It's a waste of potential. Perfect Chaos is merely symptomatic of one of the problems I have with the story, not necessarily a problem in and of himself.

Considering that when the Time Eater appears all the characters see him (except Metal Sonic, Shadow, and Silver), that they all see how he opened the "portals", and then get sucked in I think we can assume that at least they know of his presence and power. Even Blaze's comment makes sense in that even with all her power she was not able to escape the monster's power in that moment.

Time Eater hopping from place to place for a quick second and opening portals still does not explain how Vector could have come to the suspicion that it was being controlled by someone or that Blaze had been in a fight with him. She literally says to Modern Sonic "The creature was beyond my skills," implying she had a significant fight him at all....when exactly?

Again I don't see a plothole (except in the part of the rivals, but even then you can assume their were capture on their own like Classic Sonic and Classic Tails)

Oh, the rivals are a plothole for a whole bucket of reasons! \o/ First of all, why do Shadow and Silver fight Sonic if they know him? Of course you can answer that they are the past versions of themselves from the games they appeared in, as in Shadow is SA2 Shadow and Silver is 06 Silver. Assuming this is true (I don't, because Silver's dialogue makes it clear he's known Sonic for far longer than what would be reasonable for his debut and accuses him of doing something completely unrelated to the Iblis Trigger nonsense), why would they go to support him at the end of the game, especially Shadow? Also, wouldn't this subsequently create a paradox where the universe now has two of each rival, considering everything pretty much reset itself once Time Eater was defeated yet Shadow and Silver made it to the party? Either way you slice it, Shadow and Silver act kind of stupid in the story because the story doesn't endeavor to establish which version of the characters they really are and stick with it all the way through, in turn making a plothole.

It would have been the same thing for that scene. The purpose of the mirror scene was mainly more about the two Sonic meeting and doing sheningas rather than showing you this "alternate dimension".

If there would have been an explanation right there and then it would have broken the purpose of that scene. Sure you could have Tails explain it later but like the Supernatural scene it would have been something as stupid as, "It seems that Two Sonics traveling through these locations bring back life and light to their world!"

I understand what the story point of the scene is supposed to be, but the scene fulfilling its story point doesn't completely bar it from criticism. You also keep misconstruing "explanation" as "exposition." I am asking for the former and not the latter. You can explain to your audience where your characters are by merely showing them going somewhere, or by having an establishing shot of the place they've arrived at, without uttering a single word. A good movie doesn't have a character tell the audience that another character has walked into a bread store; it just shows the character entering an establishment with some bread behind some glass. It's not difficult to explain things in film through quick visuals, nor is explanation a waste of time, or hand-holding, or any other derisive things you've called it. xP

The characters arcs would really not work in this game because A) The whole point is that everyone gets captured and If you were to show what every character is doing or their actions then you might as well make a movie rather than a game, completely ruining the flow of the game. In the other game it works because you play as the character so you can focus on them, in Generations you don't.

The levels and bosses were chosen in polls. Even though people like to say that being an anniversary doesn't make it an excuse, in some ways it does. The game is primarily an anniversary game and Sonic Team wanted to include all the "great moments" from Sonic history. Sure, taking Perfect Chaos out of the game doesn't affect the story but it does affect the purpose of the game (In taking away the first final boss from Sonic's 3D history).

I mean I can argue the same thing about levels and bosses from SA1. Does taking away Windy Valley, Casinopolis or Ice Cap take anything away from the story if you replace with other completely levels? Does taking out the Egg Viper and replacing with something else affect the story? If I take out everyone but Sonic & Knuckles do I really change the theme of the story that was Chaos and the past Echidnat tribe?

I don't know where you got the idea that I said that every single cast member in Generations needed a fully fledged character arc. Generations being an anniversary game doesn't really make the bad story okay either. There is nothing that actually makes a bad story perfectly okay to have in a game; it's just bad, and the situation then becomes how do you let the bad story affect your judgement of the overall product.

Anyway, if you take out those levels and replace them, you potentially affect the tone of the game completely considering they're some of the most light-hearted levels in the game and also help establish Sonic's world. If you take out all of those characters, you fundamentally effect the course of many events and subsequently Sonic and Knuckles' progress in the story considering they interact with many of those characters anyway, (for example, you would have to write around Sonic not having the Tornado for transportation, which in turn would potentially delete the Egg Carrier from existence, and then those respective levels for each character would have to go as well). Subsequently, if Perfect Chaos was replaced with, say, the S&K Death Egg boss, everything would roughly still work as intended; after all, the game is nothing more than fan fodder, and Chaos is not the only popular nostalgic boss.

You can always skip cutscenes but that doesn't change the fact that somewhere along the line Sonic Team either thought the story was not worth it because it was too silly, didn't have the resources, ran out of time, were too stupid, or the higher ups were too stupid and told them not to do it.

It doesn't matter why the story is the way it is. The fact of the matter remains that Generations story ended up as pretty terrible and I'm fair to criticize it as such.

I'm not getting butthurt about the complains and I do think the story does have its flaws, but they are not as big or destroys the experience of the game as everyone is making them out to be.

Jesus, just because I don't like Generations story all that much does not mean I think the entire game is the worst thing ever. because I feel like people seem to think I hate this game or something when, well, that's not true if one reads the posts I've made that don't primarily focus on the story. :|

Edited October 28, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Faseeh]

Something different from the majority's opinion, I really think that Modern Planet Wisp was a good remix and Classic Planet Wisp was real good. The thing is though, it'd be nice if Classic Planet Wisp had majority of it's sections in the machinery and for Modern, majority of the sections be the forest. If that happened, we could've had a much more calm Planet Wisp for Modern Sonic.

Oh and I love that Classic Radical Highway.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Faseeh

[Linkabel]

Just cause it doesn't destroy the experience or isn't all that important for other people doesn't make me wish any less that it could have been FAR BETTER than what it is right now.

It doesn't matter why the story is the way it is. The fact of the matter remains that Generations story ended up as pretty terrible and I'm fair to criticize it as such.

Jesus, just because I don't like Generations story all that much does not mean I think the entire game is the worst thing ever. because I feel like people seem to think I hate this game or something when, well, that's not true if one reads the posts I've made that don't primarily focus on the story. :|

I didn't say that the story could have not been better in fact I've been saying that too. I'm just giving reasons on why somethings turned out the way it came out to be.

Also I didn't say that it was specifically you that said that it was the worst thing eve,r I was generalizing in what other members have been saying (I just picked on your posts because I think they are the most well-made in the whole thread )

Right now I feel like we are going in circles and neither of us is going to accept each others' point.

I guess will have to see how they do the next Sonic game on both the gameplay and story.

[KHCast]

The game is fun. That's all I got to say really about it. It's not a"SAWNIKS BAK!" Kind of game but it's not Terrible either. It made a 06 level one of my favorite levels ever. It's music is amazing and some of the best I've heard bar Colors and unleashed, and the Cut-scenes with Eggman were some of the best scenes he's been in! If it was a longer game with more replay value, was supported with DLC and, had a more interesting story,Changed up the formula a little and didn't play everything so easy I would love the game more. but right now it's just "fun."

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Generations is the kind of game which gives me a duality much like the game itself with it's separation of Classic and Modern styles of play.

As a game, I rather enjoy it. It's rather decent, even if it's the 3rd game that allows the use of the overwhelming boost. Classic Sonic is decent, but still isn't as enjoyable as he was in the Classic titles. But whatever, it's inoffensive, and I can overlook that - although it doesn't exactly help his case when I still focus more on Modern Sonic's gameplay than I do Classic.

But as I've said, I have a bit of duality when it comes to how Generations delivered itself. I guess that has more to do with the hype it generated than anything else. As good as the game is, it does have a lot of wasted potential. Here I am able to revisit stages from all across Sonic's entire history, and able to see everyone he's ever met...well mostly. Yet, the enjoyment feels hollow as I play it. The other characters mainly stand around and do nothing, which makes me feel a mixture of indifference and disappointment.

Here we have an event, a threat if you will, of chunks of land from various points in time and space being ripped out and placed in the middle of nowhere. Sonic's friends are around their respective stages, so why not help out the blue blur in setting things right since the threat legitimately affects everyone who's there? One could see this as playing things safe since the "Shitty Friends" syndrome is still out there, but this is a time when you could actually treat that symptom that's been around for so long. You could make the characters far more interesting and likable than they were before. Hell, you managed to pull Sonic himself out of the pit that he was in with Sonic 06, you could go further and do so with a lot of other parts of this series. But I digress.

There's the story, which is as barebones as Heroes, but unlike Heroes it plotholes are a lot less obvious by comparison. Okay, so that's not necessarily a plus, but it has it's ups and downs. I've been wanting more meat on the story without either getting food poisoning like I did with Sonic 06, or feeling hungry like I did in Colors. Needless to say, I was still hungry here.

And while it was nice to see the stages from the series' history brought back and remade with such stunning glory, it still itches in the back of my head when I keep thinking to myself "look at all this stuff I want to run and jump around in" yet I'm still on a rather narrow path.

Yes, the game is good (even if Diogenes - with all his name changing - is disappointed in the formula that's been around since Unleashed). However, it still shows that there are areas that need a lot of work.

I've read through all 11 pages, and see a massive debate on story. Considering I'm known for making just as much of a position on stories in the Sonic series, I'll back off for now since there's not much to add...yet. At the very least, I'll wait for an opening to jump in myself.

But I will say this: I've been around in the hellish dark age that was ShTH and Sonic 06 where fans were were less going at each other's throats and more throwing bombs at each other. Okay, so that wasn't a good metaphor.

What I'm trying to say is that I've stuck with this series at a point that I would have every reason to leave it. But I didn't. Part of the reason why I've never left this series is because 1) I've been attached to it since I was 2 years old, and 2) unlike Crash Bandicoot and Spyro (before the redesign), Sonic is still going. And I believe there is still room where Sonic can do better, be it the gameplay, be it the story, be it the mechanics, the tone, the characters, and what have you. And if I have to wait another 10 years (hell, make it 20) to see things improve to a point I'm content with, the good fucking luck expecting me to go anytime soon. When I see something that gets my critique I always say to myself "Yeah, they screwed up here. But I'll still be looking forward to the next game and see if they do better".

And indeed, while Generations avoided being a devastating let down that Sonic 06 was, I'll still be looking forward to the next game and see if they do better and so forth.

Edited October 28, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

I think that Generations was pretty good. No major game-breaking complaints other than the voice acting (which is more than I can say for most modern games). I just wish the story had more...story.

For instance: How did the Time-Eater appear appear before Eggman and let Eggman and his past self control it? I thought that was stupid and poorly written. And I'm not sure I want to know how the Eggmans will escape that white space, if it's ever explained at all in the next game.

All in all, Generations did a good job because it was probably meant to have a light story. Plotholes are present, but not numerous. So thanks for not fucking it up, Sega.

[Soniman]

Congrats Sonic Generations, it's been an official year since your release.

Ahh, it takes me back during they hype days up to it's release, remember when the game we accidentally put in stores early and everybody lost their shit? Man those were good times.

[Kuzu]

Woot, I guess.

[Solkia]

Woot, I guess.

Dat enthusiasm.

How many copies have been sold as of now?

[Your Vest Friend]

I remember when people were discussing Classic Knuckles and Classic Amy's roles in the games like they were guaranteed to be in the game. Then the demo was hacked apart, and when the assets were singled out there was no evidence of either of them anywhere in the game. After that, a lot of those discussing them just said that their assets were simply not present in this demo and would be in a more finished product. And then it turned out that they really weren't present in it at all (save for Classic Amy being on one piece of concept art).

Fun times.

[Xenos]

I remember when people were discussing Classic Knuckles and Classic Amy's roles in the games like they were guaranteed to be in the game. Then the demo was hacked apart, and when the assets were singled out there was no evidence of either of them anywhere in the game. After that, a lot of those discussing them just said that their assets were simply not present in this demo and would be in a more finished product. And then it turned out that they really weren't present in it at all (save for Classic Amy being on one piece of concept art).

Fun times.

I remember that disappointment...

I also remember the shitstorms to be had when the full level list was leaked, oh man...

But then people got excited again when Shadow's boss fight was shown, and then there was the Super Sonic models, and then...

Actually, that reminds me, why were those dance animations for Classic and Modern Sonic unused? Was quite a waste considering how smooth they were.