What is the all-time worst Sonic game?

[Purge]

Let's see.

Sonic Labyrinth? Sonic Blast? Sonic Chronicles?

Curses! The games I were going to mention have already been brought up! OK then, I'm going to go for a different route then and say Sonic Free Riders.

Now don't get me wrong, it's not all bad! It has some interesting things and the controls are fun from what I've played in a short time. However, I also feel like it's much more...bland compared to the other Sonic Riders games. Where's the interesting board designs? The Sega stage? The Sega characters showing up as playable characters? Compared to the other two games, this feels very half-assed.

Also Eggman dressed as a king is scary and he needs to stop that.

[StaticMania]

Seriously? Sonic 3D is a good game! in fact I think it is the best spin-off title in the series. The Saturn version is vastly superior but currently unavailable so play the PC port instead and you will appreciate this game a lot more.

I just don't like it, I just got really bored when playing it, left it, and never turned back.

[WarioBone]

the controls are fun

HAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fuck no.

[Purge]

HAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fuck no.

Like I said, I only played for a little bit at best, so I probably haven't seen the full horror this game truly is.

[-Big The Cat-]

But the daytime gameplay is TOTALLY Sonic. I can't imagine that kind of gameplay with any other character.

Racers.

[WarioBone]

Like I said, I only played for a little bit at best, so I probably haven't seen the full horror this game truly is.

Imagine playing Sonic and the Secret Rings but with no controller and you have to scream at the TV as loud as you can to do anything or make Sonic move while standing on your head while getting your ribs kicked in by professional kickboxers.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Ladies' Man Wario

[Purge]

Imagine playing Sonic and the Secret Rings but with no controller and you have to scream at the TV as loud as you can to do anything or make Sonic move while standing on your head while getting your ribs kicked in by professional kickboxers.

Oh sweet lord, that sounds just horrible. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

[JezMM]

It shouldn't default to being a Sonic game just because you can't find some other character you associate it with. And even if it fits the character traits that doesn't mean it follows logically from the gameplay that came before.

I'd say it follows pretty logically. "What do a lot of people love about Sonic?" "It's a platformer where you go fast!" "How can we make a platformer that goes fast as much of the time as possible?" Modern Sonic gameplay was their answer. It's not an answer that's for everyone, and yes, it takes an iconic element of the franchise and reduces it to a much shallower form, but I wouldn't call it illogical.

Ok.

Dagnabbit why I oughta... *unintelligible cartoon frustration noises and fist shaking*

Racers.

Because most racers have precision platforming, grinding, combat, freefalling, homing attacks and side-stepping. Unleashed Wii/PS2 I'll admit plays a lot more like a racer than a platformer (in fact I've said a lot the engine would have been better used on a Sonic R 2), but not the HD version. It has too many sudden movements required of the player, completely unlike the smoothness and weight a racer provides to the playing figure.

[Diogenes]

I'd say it follows pretty logically. "What do a lot of people love about Sonic?" "It's a platformer where you go fast!" "How can we make a platformer that goes fast as much of the time as possible?" Modern Sonic gameplay was their answer. It's not an answer that's for everyone, and yes, it takes an iconic element of the franchise and reduces it to a much shallower form, but I wouldn't call it illogical.

That's not following logically from the gameplay, that's following logically from people's shallow understanding of it. Since the Adventures they've been gutting the old mechanics and inserting new ones to the point where about the only thing classic and modern have in common in terms of mechanics is the ability to jump.

Because most racers have precision platforming,

Unleashed barely has platforming to start with, and it's not especially precise.

grinding,

Surely there's at least some snowboarding games with racing and grinding. Wasn't there a Tony Hawk game focused on racing? Also the Riders games.

combat

Mario Kart and its numerous imitators.

freefalling,

It's a lot like flying, just with a change of perspective. Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Kart 7...I'm sure there's dedicated plane racing games but I can't think of any.

homing attacks

Red shells are homing attacks. Okay yeah that's a stretch...

and side-stepping.

I want to say some(?) of the F-Zero games have something like this, though primarily for attacking rather than dodging, but I'm not really familiar with them. At any rate it's not a move that would be out of place in a racing game.

[Emmett L. Brown]

My subjective opinion is more factual than your subjective opinion, dammit!

Anyway, I feel that the argument about what Sonic games are "really about" is flawed form the start, given that it's not only a cross-genre franchise, but also one that's gone through so many development teams that the team vision has changed every half-decade. Some of them are of better or worse quality, and some of them are more or less fun to play for larger or smaller customer bases, but they are all Sonic games. You want to say that some of them are poor examples of a specific genre, and I'll probably end up agreeing with you, but there's no magical essence that some of them have more or less of.

[JezMM]

That's not following logically from the gameplay, that's following logically from people's shallow understanding of it. Since the Adventures they've been gutting the old mechanics and inserting new ones to the point where about the only thing classic and modern have in common in terms of mechanics is the ability to jump.

Unleashed barely has platforming to start with, and it's not especially precise.

Surely there's at least some snowboarding games with racing and grinding. Wasn't there a Tony Hawk game focused on racing? Also the Riders games.

Mario Kart and its numerous imitators.

It's a lot like flying, just with a change of perspective. Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Kart 7...I'm sure there's dedicated plane racing games but I can't think of any.

Red shells are homing attacks. Okay yeah that's a stretch...

I want to say some(?) of the F-Zero games have something like this, though primarily for attacking rather than dodging, but I'm not really familiar with them. At any rate it's not a move that would be out of place in a racing game.

See, I kind of expected a list like this, but it's a moot point as no one racer has all these things, and none of these things are considered as par for the racing genre. Any racing game that has them would treat them as a gimmick.

Hell:

Precision Platforming = Half-Life's Final Chapters

Combat = Every Shooter Ever

Freefalling = Any Shooter With A Parachute Section (I assume a lot of war games have these?)

Homing Attacks = Same ridiculous link as the red shells but... yeah any games with homing weapons

Side-stepping = Every Shooter Ever

There we go, outside of grinding, Sonic Unleashed can now easily be defined as a shooter.

Unleashed does have precision platforming, granted not much of it until the second half of the game and the secret levels. Just because the controls aren't precise doesn't mean the platforming requirements aren't (which yes, is a bad thing, but still... precision platforming).

The only thing Unleashed has that all racing games have is drifting, which is never enforced, only recommended for particular sections, and an optional speedrunning skill for unorthodox areas the rest of the time.

Edited September 28, 2012 by JezMM

[Diogenes]

See, I kind of expected a list like this, but it's a moot point as no one racer has all these things,

Maybe not, but that doesn't prove it plays like a Sonic game, more that it's a unique amalgamation of racing game mechanics.

and none of these things are considered as par for the racing genre.

None of them were the standard for Sonic games either until we got several games using them.

Unleashed does have precision platforming, granted not much of it until the second half of the game and the secret levels. Just because the controls aren't precise doesn't mean the platforming requirements aren't (which yes, is a bad thing, but still... precision platforming).

Considering how much of the platforming is guided by homing attacks, springs, boost rings, and so on, I'm still not convinced that there's enough "precision platforming" to make a note of it.

[JezMM]

It's still platforming to me. I mean... I sure as hell wouldn't define it as racing. Reaction test maybe, I'll concede to the fact that a lot of the game, even the non-QTE parts are... well, QTEs by any other name. But it's still enough of a "navigating in all directions with exaggerated movement from real life as well as gravity"-fest to qualify as platformer to me. And... yeah requires precision.

Even homing attack puzzles and timing are just as platforming to me as a simple jump over an obstacle moving towards you would be.

And I know you'll never be convinced that Modern Sonic gameplay can be fun, if you can appreciate for a moment that some people (well quite a fair amount of people considering the acclaim Colours and Generations in particular got) find the exclusive new elements of Modern Sonic fun, then saying that features are bad because they weren't in the "original definition" of Sonic would be like criticising Mario for introducing the long jump, or, Zelda for Z-targeting and realistic swordplay.

I know it's an odd thing but I think a lot of the appeal for Modern Sonic fans is that Modern Sonic basically plays like Sonic was always depicted outside of the the actual gameplay. Almost as if the actual gameplay of Sonic games was quite segregated for the reality of how Sonic actually handles the situations as a character rather than a playable element.

Essentially... Modern Sonic is a playable version of the much beloved Sonic CD opening. Now to me, that portrayal of Sonic is just as much "Sonic" as the classic rolly physics fun was. They're both different interpretations of the same character and frankly I'd be very happy if we could possibly get games featuring both playstyles.

[Komodin]

Why are we even entertaining the notion of Unleashed being the "all-time worst Sonic game"? I mean, come now; regardless of what you think of the game, it's nowhere near as bad as games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006).

Is this just yet another "list Sonic games I don't like" thread?

Edited September 29, 2012 by Komodin

[JezMM]

Why are we even entertaining the notion of Unleashed being the "all-time worst Sonic game"?

I don't think anyone is really.

I just need to scientifically prove that Big-The-Cat is totally wrong and Diogenes is totally only partially right.

Edited September 29, 2012 by JezMM

[Burnt Ash]

You know, in regards to this topic, sometimes I tend to mix up the "worst" Sonic games with Sonic games that I dislike, and sometimes I mix up the "best" Sonic games with Sonic games that I like.

[Diogenes]

But it's still enough of a "navigating in all directions with exaggerated movement from real life as well as gravity"-fest to qualify as platformer to me.

You're really not navigating in all directions when you're playing Unleashed. The level may shunt you in different directions occasionally, but your motion is basically 99% forward, 1% other.

Even homing attack puzzles

Homing attack...puzzles?

And I know you'll never be convinced that Modern Sonic gameplay can be fun

Oh, I believe it can be fun. I just don't see how it can stay fun for more than a few levels.

if you can appreciate for a moment that some people (well quite a fair amount of people considering the acclaim Colours and Generations in particular got) find the exclusive new elements of Modern Sonic fun, then saying that features are bad because they weren't in the "original definition" of Sonic would be like criticising Mario for introducing the long jump, or, Zelda for Z-targeting and realistic swordplay.

Hey hey, I'm not railing against new things simply for being new. My problem is that they're a poor replacement for the original mechanics, rather than things that support and expand the original concept. Mario's core action is jumping, so they gave him more ways to jump to help navigate more complex environments. Combat is an important aspect of Zelda, and Z-targeting helps you aim at and focus on enemies in 3D space. Sonic, though...they take the nuance out of speed and simply have you hold a button for top speed all the time. Instead of letting you weave around obstacles manually, they give you the quick step and throw you into 3-lane highways built for it. Instead of having a curve connecting floor to wall and allowing you to run up it, they put springs on each end so they control exactly how you do it.

Essentially... Modern Sonic is a playable version of the much beloved Sonic CD opening.

Only if the goal is to emulate that specific animation, not that kind of action in general. The modern gameplay eliminates choice. It's like looking at CD's intro as a checklist; do a loop, then run over water, then jump on some rocks. What I get out of the opening, and what the modern games are missing, is that this is Sonic carving his own path. He's not running some predetermined track, he's not doing a loop because there's a loop ahead and no other way to go, he's doing a loop because fuck yeah I want to do a sweet-ass loop!, so he does it even when he doesn't need to. Obviously there's only so much of this that you can do in a video game; you can't just dump the player in a randomly-generated environment and expect a fun level to emerge, there needs to be design guiding it. But modern design relies too much on doing the one thing the designer wants you to do so you can follow a preplanned sequence. What I want to see is level design that is more open rather than restricted, that guides rather than forces, that presents you with opportunities rather than insisting on obedience.

Is this just yet another "lists Sonic games I don't like" thread?

Was it ever not? Could it have possibly been anything else?

[JezMM]

You're really not navigating in all directions when you're playing Unleashed. The level may shunt you in different directions occasionally, but your motion is basically 99% forward, 1% other.

Well, okay, but it's still platforming to me lol.

Homing attack...puzzles?

Most of it was in the DLC to be honest... Stuff like multiple targets appearing in front of you and needing to steer towards the one you want to redefine your target reticule, moments where obstacles block your homing attack path so you have to wait until you drop to a certain height to use them, and, for a non-DLC example, that spot on Skyscraper Scamper where there's a spinner just off to the side down below a homing attack chain where, if you allow yourself to drop, you can target it instead of the chain ahead of you, and go a different path. I think there's a lot of fun stuff that can be done with the homing attack, ESPECIALLY if they make enemies continue your momentum like balloons do (preferrably in different ways depending on the enemy).

Oh, I believe it can be fun. I just don't see how it can stay fun for more than a few levels.

I guess if you're really into it you can appreciate the subtle differences in level design philosophy or, at least, appreciate the increasing difficulty of what the game demands of you? That's my theory on what keeps me playing.

Hey hey, I'm not railing against new things simply for being new. My problem is that they're a poor replacement for the original mechanics, rather than things that support and expand the original concept. Mario's core action is jumping, so they gave him more ways to jump to help navigate more complex environments. Combat is an important aspect of Zelda, and Z-targeting helps you aim at and focus on enemies in 3D space. Sonic, though...they take the nuance out of speed and simply have you hold a button for top speed all the time. Instead of letting you weave around obstacles manually, they give you the quick step and throw you into 3-lane highways built for it. Instead of having a curve connecting floor to wall and allowing you to run up it, they put springs on each end so they control exactly how you do it.

I think there's a middle-ground personally. I wouldn't want a Sonic game with no automation at all because you'd just mess up all the time and end up wtih an annoying flowless experience first time as seen in Sonic CD. I like the quick-step but I do hate how the further through the game(s) you get, the less it is an aid to movement in open areas and the more it is the primary form of control in three-lane scripted sequences. Aside from Colours where it was ONLY scripted. Ugh.

Only if the goal is to emulate that specific animation, not that kind of action in general. The modern gameplay eliminates choice. It's like looking at CD's intro as a checklist; do a loop, then run over water, then jump on some rocks. What I get out of the opening, and what the modern games are missing, is that this is Sonic carving his own path. He's not running some predetermined track, he's not doing a loop because there's a loop ahead and no other way to go, he's doing a loop because fuck yeah I want to do a sweet-ass loop!, so he does it even when he doesn't need to. Obviously there's only so much of this that you can do in a video game; you can't just dump the player in a randomly-generated environment and expect a fun level to emerge, there needs to be design guiding it. But modern design relies too much on doing the one thing the designer wants you to do so you can follow a preplanned sequence. What I want to see is level design that is more open rather than restricted, that guides rather than forces, that presents you with opportunities rather than insisting on obedience.

I guess for me, I buy into the fiction that Sonic IS forging his own path through the stage, and it is merely being presented to us lowly mortals as a linear stage.

To be honest I think Seaside Hill in Generations is a good starting point for future stages. All I want them to do is have lots of optional exciting stuff along the many criss-crossing paths. The only thing I really dislike is their insistence on forcing you back onto a main path to do a cinematic bit. I love my cinematic bits but there should be lots of them all over to try out, because I can agree as long as the level design is tight on all avaliable routes, I'd love a more open approach to the linear obstacle courses I enjoy so.

Hell, if they make the levels big enough, a great stage could have routes that reward classic momentum usage AND have routes avaliable that take advantage of Modern Sonic's more "do the right thing here to go this way, you get one try or you're going the other way" moments.

[Phos]

Saying Unleashed is just a game featuring Sonic implies it isn't Sonic-like at all as a game.

The werehog side? Yeah I'll give you that. But the daytime gameplay is TOTALLY Sonic. I can't imagine that kind of gameplay with any other character. Maybe like... some kinda parkour game, but... still the crazy speeds and airdiving stuff would conflict with that, along with the more puzzley platforming from the secret stages.

If Unleashed isn't Sonic, then neither is Colours or Generations.

I can imagine it with Sonic replaced by a boat because it reminds me a lot of Hydro Thunder. Maybe just replace Sonic with a whatever that is and you basically have Trailblazer for the Gizmondo.

[Old dead account]

I think Unleashed was worse than even Sonic 06 in some aspects. Then again my opinion on that game extremely bipolar. Truly Love/hate.

[Ebby]

Unleashed made me LOVE Sonic after a period of considering calling it quits. I lost practically all hope and then that game made me remember why I liked Sonic. Mind you, I thought it was going to be absolute shit. Werehog had to grow on me, but hey... that became fun and that is what counts! I liked some night levels more than day ones to be truthful.

Yeah it has flaws... but it's Sonic to me. I have a notion of what Sonic games are (like all of us) and when I don't get what I expect, I'm upset. The end.

Not to mention I like crazy speed, alternate play styles, bottomless pits, and QTEs. I must be crazy as hell. =P