Zelda Topic

[speedfreak]

I think TP is the best Zelda. When it comes to Zelda I'm about dungeons and boos fights and TP takes the cake in both departments IMHO.

[VO.SUPER]

I think TP is the best Zelda. When it comes to Zelda I'm about dungeons and boos fights and TP takes the cake in both departments IMHO.

[Speederino]

You know, I had no idea how devisive this series was until I resurrected the Skyward Sword thread. It's like every game in the franchise is a war zone between people who love it and the people who hate it. It almost puts the Sonic fandom in a different light. Almost.

[VO.SUPER]

You know, I had no idea how devisive this series was until I resurrected the Skyward Sword thread. It's like every game in the franchise is a war zone between people who love it and the people who hate it. It almost puts the Sonic fandom in a different light. Almost.

Yes, that's quite true. The only difference is that most Zelda fans seem to agree that they're all good games on their own merits. The problem usually stems by judging Zelda games by other Zelda games.

[Diogenes]

The wolf gimmick was well enough to the best of it's ability,

If that's the best they could do with it they shouldn't have done it in the first place. What's there even to do as a wolf? You're locked out of most of your abilities and all of your items. The big gimmick as I remember is tracking scents, which amounts to anything more than 3 feet away going black and following a colored trail. Not exactly thrilling gameplay, there.

the combat with the wolf is fun and engaging.

It's more limited than the sword fighting, and that's not even counting all the other items you have in human form.

Really? I found the intro to be rather easy, and unlike the intro in Skyward Sword you had more engagement in the beginning. Really, the intro was a pretty perfect length.

Easy, yes. Interesting, not past the first time. You've got to do a bunch of boring fetch quests and scroll through a bunch of dialogue before you're anywhere near getting to the first dungeon. I don't want to waste my time herding goats, fishing, and showing off for a bunch of brats (in a poorly disguised tutorial) before I can even get into the game proper.

While the overworld is terribly lacking of enemies, it is very rife with secret areas that are quite fun to look for, even if it's empty.

And how many of these secret areas have anything worthwhile to them? (zero)

I think TP is the best Zelda.

You are wrong.

[lounge]

I really don't like how they kept the sword slash effect and smoke effect from WW in TP. It just didn't mesh well. It worked in WW for that style. In the N64 games when you hit something, the enemy would turn red and a quick splatter of blood would pop out and then the enemy would burn in multiple embers. In TP I got so sick of seeing that pathetic, tiny smoke effect. Even the dragon boss in the city in the sky, after you killed it turned into a tiny poof of smoke. I always hated that. Little details like that add up. I laughed how at the back of the box it says animated blood. Also link and wolf link's stiff animations always bothered me. As well as Toru Minegeshi's dull score.

I'm glad they were able to make those details better in SS. It was much more dramatic. Even though they kept the purple smoke effect, it looked better.

One of the best atmospheric things in TP that I always loved was the twilight realm at least. Every time I entered it I'd spend a long time just looking at the details and bloomy effects.

[VO.SUPER]

You may be able to talk Sonic Dio, but I can hold my own in Zelda.

If that's the best they could do with it they shouldn't have done it in the first place. What's there even to do as a wolf? You're locked out of most of your abilities and all of your items. The big gimmick as I remember is tracking scents, which amounts to anything more than 3 feet away going black and following a colored trail. Not exactly thrilling gameplay, there.

It's more limited than the sword fighting, and that's not even counting all the other items you have in human form.

For me I found the wolf to be a fun gimmick for traversing smaller areas. The wolf was more versatile than Link and more agile in combat, which I found to be twice as entertaining as a wolf because of his speed. So you were limited from you items, but many of them don't really even factor into fights so there's really no point complaining about that. So you lose your sword, you get to be a fucking wolf and tear the shit out of enemies.

Easy, yes. Interesting, not past the first time. You've got to do a bunch of boring fetch quests and scroll through a bunch of dialogue before you're anywhere near getting to the first dungeon. I don't want to waste my time herding goats, fishing, and showing off for a bunch of brats (in a poorly disguised tutorial) before I can even get into the game proper.

The dialogue was sparse enough for me in this section, especially compared to the likes of Skyward Sword. Though still a little much, it wasn't enough to bother.

I enjoyed the beginning well enough for that. The only part which really bugged me was the training session which I think you're just overblowing.

I liked herding goats, and I liked fishing in Zelda. Plus, the tutorial level involved that dangerous trek through the woods as well if you remember, and that was a good taste for combat.

And how many of these secret areas have anything worthwhile to them? (zero)

All of them. Hurr durr.

Many of them led to goodies, which is the point of a secret area, whether it has poes, ruppees, or heart pieces. One secret area which I found to be really fun was this giant horizontal mini dungeon leading downwards to a heart container.

You are wrong.

He is wrong.

Edited August 30, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[JezMM]

I have to say, despite how simple they were I LOVED exploring all the nooks and crannies of Hyrule Field in TP. Discovering a new cave was really cool, and yes they all just contain rupees, poes, bugs and heart pieces but... what else are they meant to contain exactly. I really loved the feeling of exploring a realistic cave with my lantern. The thrill of never really knowing when these winding, branching paths would end was really fun, and especially tense when you started to run out of oil. It was a simple but very unique experience.

And of course then there were the handful of mini-dungeons spread around hyrule field too. I do wonder how many people who moaned about Hyrule Field being empty actually bothered to even try exploring it.

Then again there are people who can't fathom that the Great Sea has stuff to do in it when it so totally does either so... I dunno.

Edited August 30, 2012 by JezMM

[Nepenthe]

And here I was just talking with my friend about buying Twilight Princess since I've just finished Skyward Sword. You guys make me wary as hell, but at the same time, it's pretty cheap now anyway. And if it's in the vain of Skyward Sword, I don't think I'd lose much. I grew to love that game- the scale of the world and narrative mainly- and really get into it as I went along, even if things like the trials got ridiculous. I really don't think I need to prove myself to anyone if I'm holding the goddamn Master Sword ordained to me by a god eons ago. Pet peeves like that aside, I felt like I was able to kick every challenge in the teeth and really accomplish something regardless. So I'd be up for doing it all over again in Twilight Princess.

[VO.SUPER]

And here I was just talking with my friend about buying Twilight Princess since I've just finished Skyward Sword. You guys make me wary as hell, but at the same time, it's pretty cheap now anyway. And if it's in the vain of Skyward Sword, I don't think I'd lose much. I grew to love that game- the scale of the world and narrative mainly- and really get into it as I went along, even if things like the trials got ridiculous. I really don't think I need to prove myself to anyone if I'm holding the goddamn Master Sword ordained to me by a god eons ago. Pet peeves like that aside, I felt like I was able to kick every challenge in the teeth and really accomplish something regardless. So I'd be up for doing it all over again in Twilight Princess.

It's not too different, but far from similar. I can easily say that there are certainly many things about TP which are really grand, mostly the scale of everything. In TP, everything just felt bigger. The dungeons were all designed with hugeness and exploration in mind. The enemies are varied, despite being very simple to deal with, and the story is one of the best. I'd say it beats SS in the story department, but that's just me.

Though Hyrule Field is really just a barren wasteland covered with goodies, the individual areas are varied and creatviely designed, though unlike SS they are not built like minidungeons.

The score is certainly not the best in many areas though. The softer tracks are all quite good, but when the game wants to get loud it really doesn't do that well. It was really one of the weaker uses of Midis in Zelda.

So I say give it a shot, and maybe you'll enjoy it.

[Solly]

Twilight Princess was pretty good, but it was kind of weak compared to the other Zeldas. It retreaded too much old ground and it was, in general, way too easy. Which is weird, considering that it was supposed to be the darker, more realistic Zelda made for Western audiences.

On the plus side the amount of sword moves you could get was cool, but they lacked balance, and combined with the fact that you automatically block, and the enemies do little damage, the combat felt lacking too.

Nintendo's all caught up in this struggle of "how do we make games more difficult for our hardcore fans but accomodate new inexperienced players"? They're making it so much harder on themselves than they need to.

Boom. I just fixed Zelda. Call me any time, Nintendo.

I have to say, despite how simple they were I LOVED exploring all the nooks and crannies of Hyrule Field in TP. Discovering a new cave was really cool, and yes they all just contain rupees, poes, bugs and heart pieces but... what else are they meant to contain exactly.

[Kuzu]

Wow, and I thought Sonic was the only fractured fanbase. Ugh, I hate not having a Wii of my own, Skyward Sword is just sitting on my dresser catching dust. I need my sister's assistance.

I might have to finish TP before I get to SS, if only for consistency's sake.

[Speederino]

The score is certainly not the best in many areas though. The softer tracks are all quite good, but when the game wants to get loud it really doesn't do that well. It was really one of the weaker uses of Midis in Zelda.

In regards to the music, I'd just like to leave this underrated gem.

Really makes me want a Zelda game with a western theme.

[VO.SUPER]

Twilight Princess was pretty good, but it was kind of weak compared to the other Zeldas. It retreaded too much old ground and it was, in general, way too easy. Which is weird, considering that it was supposed to be the darker, more realistic Zelda made for Western audiences.

On the plus side the amount of sword moves you could get was cool, but they lacked balance, and combined with the fact that you automatically block, and the enemies do little damage, the combat felt lacking too.

Nintendo's all caught up in this struggle of "how do we make games more difficult for our hardcore fans but accomodate new inexperienced players"? They're making it so much harder on themselves than they need to.

Boom. I just fixed Zelda. Call me any time, Nintendo.

It's not just about having multiple difficulty settings. It's about making the differences in those settings worthwhile. Why should I play hard mode vs normal when the only difference is that hard mode takes away more health? There's nothing meaningful in that other than a few extra brag rights. So it's not really that simple.

There's a bit of a disconnect between the game designers and the majority of players, I think.

Nintendo made those little nooks and crannies with the understanding that players would enjoy being able to go in them, explore and and have fun spelunking and solving simple puzzles.

Most players will enter the caves, go spelunking and solve those puzzles in the hopes of getting something worthwhile. "Whatever's in here must be important since they bothered hiding it." I guess you would be an exception, but most people expect a decent reward for their efforts, because Zelda games have trained them to do so- even Twilight Princess in its main dungeons. Heart Containers are good rewards, but Rupees are pretty lousy.

Rupees are only lousy when you have nothing to purchase with them. In TP there are multiple opportunities to pay for goodies that require you to find rupees to collect. (This purchasing system was done better in SS in terms of upgrades, but there was little else that needed rupees other than minigames). If you do these secrets late in the game when you've grinded for rupees the hard way, the problem falls on the player as well as the game designer. Many of the secret areas need to have rupees, especially if they're difficult to access.

The part where the developers really went wrong in that game though was the system where you had to put rupees back in chests. That was easily some of the biggest bullshit I ever went through.

Plus, there are poes in these dungeons, which are a good reward, despite the final reward not being very useful. A player is going to want to collect poes. And don't forget about insents.

It doesn't help that most of the mini-dungeons were pretty lame.

That I disagree with.

Twilight Princess' overworld doesn't have anything on the Great Sea.

True dat.

[Kuzu]

The Hidden Village was like the only piece of music I remember.

[Solly]

It's not just about having multiple difficulty settings. It's about making the differences in those settings worthwhile. Why should I play hard mode vs normal when the only difference is that hard mode takes away more health? There's nothing meaningful in that other than a few extra brag rights. So it's not really that simple.

Never said they should only make the harder difficulty settings take away more health- but it'd be a start. While it would be more effort they could change enemy attack patterns, make them more agressive, and/or change puzzles.

But even if they DID settle for just making the enemies deal extra damage, that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile, especially when it's relatively simple to do. And people don't play harder games just for bragging rights- at least I don't. Some players just want a more challenging experience, especially when games get as insultingly easy as Twlight Princess did.

Rupees are only lousy when you have nothing to purchase with them. In TP there are multiple opportunities to pay for goodies that require you to find rupees to collect. (This purchasing system was done better in SS in terms of upgrades, but there was little else that needed rupees other than minigames). If you do these secrets late in the game when you've grinded for rupees the hard way, the problem falls on the player as well as the game designer. Many of the secret areas need to have rupees, especially if they're difficult to access.

Rupees are lousy, not because you don't have anything to purchase, but because you can find them literally anywhere else.

The part where the developers really went wrong in that game though was the system where you had to put rupees back in chests. That was easily some of the biggest bullshit I ever went through.

I can agree with that.

Plus, there are poes in these dungeons, which are a good reward, despite the final reward not being very useful. A player is going to want to collect poes. And don't forget about insents.

And that, although I didn't particularly like either of these sidequests.

[VO.SUPER]

Never said they should only make the harder difficulty settings take away more health- but it'd be a start. While it would be more effort they could change enemy attack patterns, make them more agressive, and/or change puzzles.

But even if they DID settle for just making the enemies deal extra damage, that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile, especially when it's relatively simple to do. And people don't play harder games just for bragging rights- at least I don't. Some players just want a more challenging experience, especially when games get as insultingly easy as Twlight Princess did.

You could try playing using the Zora armor, which could be considered hard mode. I mean, look at it, it has a weakness to fire and ice damage. Why would Nintendo do that when the dungeon it's in doesn't contain any fire or ice attacks?

Rupees are lousy, not because you don't have anything to purchase, but because you can find them literally anywhere else.

I can agree with that.

And that, although I didn't particularly like either of these sidequests.

Yes, that's true. Really, what Nintendo would have to do to make rupees more valuable is to have enemies drop green rupees, and bushes only ever drop green or blue rupees. And have less bloody chests with red rupees in them.

[Solkia]

I want to get into the Zelda series, I really do. But I've played all the games from Zelda 1 through Majora's Mask and had to use a guide each time.

Is there something I'm missing? Or is it normal to be using guides for Zelda games?

I played a little bit of Twilight Princess before I returned it to my friend, and had a lot of fun with it (I got lost in the first dungeon since I suck at these games, but that's just me fucking up).

It seems like a great series, but I always have a lot of trouble with it.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Solkia-kun

[VO.SUPER]

I want to get into the Zelda series, I really do. But I've played Zelda 1 - Majora's Mask and had to use a guide each time.

Is there something I'm missing? Or is it normal to be using guides for Zelda games?

I played a little bit of Twilight Princess before I returned it to my friend, and had a lot of fun with it (I got lost in the first dungeon since I suck at these games, but that's just me fucking up).

It seems like a great series, but I always have a lot of trouble with it.

Majora's Mask and Zelda 1 are not good starting titles. Majora is more meant for experienced players in Zelda, and Zelda 1 requires a guide for the player to get anywhere.

My suggestions are to start with either, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and A Link to the Past.

Don't try Skyward Sword first, since so much of it relies on the Wiimote function, and a largely different level structure the rest of the series may come off as too different.

Ocarina is good, but it may seem too basic these days, unless you get it for your 3DS where it's updated slightly, but still basic.

Really, I feel those three games are the best for starting players.

[Solkia]

Yeaah, I've tried a Link to the Past, I got lost in that game too :U

I'll try Wind Waker and the GC version of Twilight Princess though.

[Solly]

You could try playing using the Zora armor, which could be considered hard mode. I mean, look at it, it has a weakness to fire and ice damage. Why would Nintendo do that when the dungeon it's in doesn't contain any fire or ice attacks?

I'm assuming they gave the Zora armor those weaknesses so that it wouldn't be used much outside the dungeon it's in. They probably didn't want a repeat of Ocarina of Time where the Goron and Zora tunics can really just replace your default one.

Yeaah, I've tried a Link to the Past, I got lost in that game too :U

I'll try Wind Waker and the GC version of Twilight Princess though.

Ocarina of Time is also a great jumping-on point, but it's not really necessary to play these games in order.

[Old dead account]

I would definitely recommend OoT3D for your starter Zelda, being a basic game is good for beginners. Or for 2D Zelda, I'd say maybe Minish Cap.

[Diogenes]

The wolf was more versatile than Link

I don't think there's any sense where this isn't a lie. The wolf is worse at literally everything.

and more agile in combat,

To what effect? So you can jump around a bit faster against the few enemies that there's any reason to use the wolf against.

So you were limited from you items, but many of them don't really even factor into fights so there's really no point complaining about that.

That's another point against TP, y'know, but even still you've got arrows, bombs, the boomerang, the ball and chain, and this is on top of your growing collection of sword and shield moves. Compared to the wolf, which has...jack and shit, really.

So you lose your sword, you get to be a fucking wolf and tear the shit out of enemies.

Except it's boring. The wolf can't do anything interesting except that auto-attack with Midna's help, and that's boring because the game is playing itself.

The dialogue was sparse enough for me in this section, especially compared to the likes of Skyward Sword. Though still a little much, it wasn't enough to bother.

Skyward Sword has a lot of dialogue early on too, but at least it's halfway interesting, with characters that have some real heart, rather than some townspeople you have no reason to care about and some brats that you'll actively dislike (except Malo, Malo's ok).

I liked herding goats, and I liked fishing in Zelda.

And if they were just minigames I'd be okay with it, but they front-load the game with them and force you to go through them every time you want to play again.

Plus, the tutorial level involved that dangerous trek through the woods as well if you remember, and that was a good taste for combat.

Nothing in Twilight Princess was dangerous. And all that did was waste time sending us through an area that we'd have to go through again later. You want a dangerous trek, throw Link in a fucking dungeon and get the game moving.

Many of them led to goodies, which is the point of a secret area, whether it has poes, ruppees, or heart pieces.

Poes only get you a bottle and rupees, and rupees are basically useless anyway (especially with the minuscule wallet they give you meaning you're constantly maxing out). Heart pieces, the game's so easy that they're worthless. And no, being able to gimp yourself with the Zora armor doesn't make this okay, and even if it did the rest of the game is enough of a pain that it isn't worth bothering with.

I want to get into the Zelda series, I really do. But I've played all the games from Zelda 1 through Majora's Mask and had to use a guide each time.

Is there something I'm missing? Or is it normal to be using guides for Zelda games?

Most Zeldas that I've played I have had to check a guide at some point. They are puzzle-based to an extent, so it's not unreasonable to get stuck sometimes. If you're using a guide constantly, though...well, that's really not how the games are meant to be played.

[VO.SUPER]

I would definitely recommend OoT3D for your starter Zelda, being a basic game is good for beginners. Or for 2D Zelda, I'd say maybe Minish Cap.

Yeah, Solaris has a point. If you want to start a 2D Zelda where you won't get lost in easily, try Minish cap. It's the most basic of basic 2D Zeldas. It's short and has a lot of freedom, but not so much that you would get lost.

[Soniman]

Malo was literally the best fucking thing about Twilight Princess, most of his dialogue is just brilliant.