Sonic-related pet peeves?

[batson]

What's wrong with it?

 

They were enemies through most of S3&K, but only because Knuckles was tricked. When Eggman revealed his true colors and Knuckles was too weakened to continue, he was willing to trust Sonic to take care of things.

 

In SA they're still not best bros, and Knuckles is on edge due to the emerald being shattered, so it's easy enough to nudge him into getting into a fight with Sonic. But there's no bad blood afterwards, they each just continue on with their business.

 

And in SA2 there's really no hesitation for them to help each other, once they run into each other. Yeah, they have a bit of a scuffle on the shuttle, but that's it.

 

I'm not seeing what the problem is, it seems a pretty reasonable progression to me.

 

I think the progression of Sonic and Knuckles friendship is mostly reasonable too, but it's still a little strange how in Heroes, there isn't the slightest hint of even a friendly rivalry, which is something that character profiles in game manuals and such always claim is supposed to exist between the two.

 

Then again, there are quite a few things that character profiles tend to claim but that never seem to show up in the actual games...

Edited January 9, 2013 by batson

[Amomynous]

Hmm, you know I think you're right.

Maybe it was just the "How the heck did Tails get Knuckles to come?" thing.

And what Batson said.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Mysterics

[Kuzu]

I mean, I understand there should be some more ribbing between the two, but for the most part they're pretty tight. Hell, Sonic himself trusted Knuckles with Tails & Amy's safety before confronting Shadow.

[Spin Attaxx]

Something really bothers me:

 

Back when the whole kerfuffle about Blaze's and Nega's backstories was around, apparantly some people thought Silver came from the Sol Dimension.

 

Why?

 

(well, I guess it was either I: people assuming Blaze's world was the "Good Future" of Sonic's world or II: Silvaze writers putting Silver in the SD and confusing people...)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because they were trying to make sense of a continuity mess that the game created. Not that they were successful at it, but it's not too hard to understand.

[Your Vest Friend]

I personally find it a bit bizarre that people are citing SA2 as an example of when Knuckles was shown to be buds with Sonic in order to say that Heroes didn't botch it, when I find that SA2 was the game that botched Knuckles and not Heroes. 

[Kuzu]

Aside from being shoehorned into the story, there's not much wrong with Knuckles himself.

[Komodin]

How, exactly, did SA2 botch Knuckles?

[Blue Blood]

I personally find it a bit bizarre that people are citing SA2 as an example of when Knuckles was shown to be buds with Sonic in order to say that Heroes didn't botch it, when I find that SA2 was the game that botched Knuckles and not Heroes. 

Knuckles was pretty forced into SA2. He and the ME weren't at all relevant until right at the end of the last story, and which point they were pivotal even if ultimately useless. But I don't quite see how he was botched. He was working with Sonic, Tails and Amy because they shared a common goal, and his hot-headed nature really showed when they were flying to the ark in-an-annoyingly-realistic-space-shuttle-that-was-in-Eggman's-base-for-some-reason-oh-god-why. His relationship with Rouge was really nicely handled too. If any game "botched" him, it was '06. I could tolerate Heroes no problem, but ugh... '06...

[Diogenes]

Knuckles was pretty forced into SA2. He and the ME weren't at all relevant until right at the end of the last story, and which point they were pivotal even if ultimately useless.

I dunno, it doesn't really feel forced to me. He's mostly on the B plot, but that's not a bad thing, and they tie it/him into the main story reasonably well. Breaking the emerald again isn't great, but it's in a significantly different context than the first time, and it gives him a genuine reason to be out adventuring until he runs into the rest of Team Hero.

[Kuzu]

I dunno, it doesn't really feel forced to me. He's mostly on the B plot, but that's not a bad thing, and they tie it/him into the main story reasonably well. Breaking the emerald again isn't great, but it's in a significantly different context than the first time, and it gives him a genuine reason to be out adventuring until he runs into the rest of Team Hero.

 

 

It's mostly because unlike the first time, there was really no reason for the Master Emerald to get broken other than to contrive a reason for Knuckles to play a role. It doesn't really ruin Knuckles that much, but I'd kind of like a reason the ME to break other than for Knuckles to appear.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd say be thankful that SA2 managed to actually use him in a way that didn't feel shoehorned.

 

Throughout half of SA2's hero story, Knuckles wasn't really useless than he was completely on his own minding his business while looking for the ME pieces. Meanwhile Sonic, Amy, and Tails were off evading the military trying to capture them after breaking the Blue Blur out of prison. It was only when he revealed himself in the middle of their half of the plot, and helped to find Eggman's base for the group did he start teaming up prior to going solo again on the Ark until the last story, which gave him even more use as his ME was essential for stopping the Chaos Emeralds.

 

That's like saying Rouge was useless in the game, when she actually did far more than people realize and was also an independent party in her side of the story before pretending joining the villain side.

 

 

Also worth noting that he was dragged into the whole plot simply due to an error Eggman made in tracking the Chaos Emeralds, running by the Master Emerald by mistake. Contrast that to being brought along for the ride for hardly any reason in Heroes and the only notable thing about him (and his group) was to stop Eggman's weapon as detailed from a letter for Sonic, or Sonic 06 where all Knuckles did was deliever a letter to Sonic and help find the Chaos Emeralds at the last story. Even in ShTH, though he didn't do anything major, there was a global crisis going on that required every fighting person to force the Black Arms away.

Edited January 10, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Crackerss]

Speaking of SA2, it kind of bothers me when people say that Shadow and Maria were love interests to validate Sonic and Elise.

 

They weren't?? It's the Dead Little Sister trope.

[Mogtaki]

I'd say be thankful that SA2 managed to actually use him in a way that didn't feel shoehorned.

 

He was shoehorned in though, even Tails was shoehorned in as a playable character. They were popular characters, so people were pissed when they heard they weren't going to be playable so they were forced to change things around and insert them in.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

He was shoehorned in though, even Tails was shoehorned in as a playable character. They were popular characters, so people were pissed when they heard they weren't going to be playable so they were forced to change things around and insert them in.

And yet, they actually carried their weight in the plot compared to the other games I mentioned. SA2 is far better at hiding such shoehorning compared to games like Sonic 06 where the plot could have easily done without them, narratively speaking.

 

Shoehorning is essentially craming a character into the plot, or when a character is there just to take space that isn't available for them. It's basically saying "Let's fit this character in the narrative and not do anything significant with them."

Edited January 10, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Speaking of SA2, it kind of bothers me when people say that Shadow and Maria were love interests to validate Sonic and Elise.

 

They weren't?? It's the Dead Little Sister trope.

 

While im not sure if iv'e ever personally seen Maria X Shadow being used to justify Sonic X Elise, the idea of Shadow and Maria as love interests really bother me too. And it's not only because one character is human and the other one isn't, it also has to do with Marias young age. On one hand, since Maria was supposed to be 12 by the time of her death, and since Shadow is probably "supposed to be" 15 in some mental way, the age difference between the two wasn't any different from the age difference between Amy and Sonic. But i dont know, for some reason the idea of Maria and Shadow being a romantic couple really rubs me the wrong way even though the same isnt really true for the Sonic and Amy relationship. Maybe it's because Shadow seems so much older than 15 (which he of course also technically is... even if he wasn't at the point in time where he knew Maria) in terms of personality. And maybe Maria being a human 12 year old somehow makes her young age more apparent than in the case of Amy. Either way, Shadow X Maria is a big no-no as far as i am concerned.

[Blue Blood]

He was shoehorned in though, even Tails was shoehorned in as a playable character. They were popular characters, so people were pissed when they heard they weren't going to be playable so they were forced to change things around and insert them in.

No.

Where is the proof for this? The first trailer for the game only showed Sonic, Eggman and Knuckles but absolutely does not say they'd be the only playable characters. Tails, Shadow and Rouge had merely yet to be revealed. If you go and look up SA2 beta elements, you'll find that the game was originally structured differently into three stories split by gameplay style instead two split by side.

[Mogtaki]

Tails was extremely last minute, Knuckles was to be there but not playable. There was to be a lot more Sonic levels going. It's why whenever Knuckles appears inbetween sections of the game around other characters, it seems a little rushed and massively copied from SA.

[Blue Blood]

Tails was extremely last minute, Knuckles was to be there but not playable. There was to be a lot more Sonic levels going. It's why whenever Knuckles appears inbetween sections of the game around other characters, it seems a little rushed and massively copied from SA.

Knuckles was playable from start, as was everyone else. Care to find any proof to support your claims, or is it just going to remain as speculation that relies on opinion?

[Mogtaki]

A fuckton of reviews and previews, the Sonic Team website had a bit on it during development, but I can't seem to get a hold of that anymore because of the website either changing or hiding the info away. Maybe I can find it again through Sonic Retro. I think Johnny said something about it too in that review of his.

[Blue Blood]

A fuckton of reviews and previews, the Sonic Team website had a bit on it during development, but I can't seem to get a hold of that anymore because of the website either changing or hiding the info away. Maybe I can find it again through Sonic Retro. I think Johnny said something about it too in that review of his.

What you're saying has been flying around for years, but nobody has ever given it a source. The "fuckton of reviews and previews" that I've said have ever reiterated what you're saying without providing any evidence. That SEGA would have made the game with initially just three characters (or less) and hastily added in everyone else between E3 2000 and the release in June 2001, especially when you consider their financial difficulties at the time as well as the cost of doing something like that, just because the fans made a bit of a fuss, sounds totally unlikely. SA2 even shows signs of being made on a hamstring as is with the SOAP product placement.

 

This here is the announcment trailer for SA2 from E3 2000.

http://youtu.be/xmbnZa9H6go

 

Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman are clearly playable. Sonic is also shown in Sky Rail, which people always love to use as evidence for "Shadow wasn't originally playable, because here you can see Sonic in one of his levels!", even though it totally disregards the more logical reasoning in that we were just seeing a game in early development with many aspects being kept a secret. The whole marketing drive of SA2 was 'good vs evil', so the E3 trailer showed hero and dark characters the way of Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman so that Shadow and Rouge could be kept a secret.

 

I'm reading up Retro's page about SA2's development now, and came across this:

 

It was May 11th, 2000 when the bubbling rumors of the sequel were finally confirmed by Sega, with Sonic Team releasing a handful of screenshots featuring Sonic the Hedgehog in what would become City Escape, as well as shots showing off Knuckles, Dr. Eggman and the return of the Chao Garden. Tied together with a trailer also featuring the three, the community went abuzz with excitement. That began to damper, though, with many discussing the fate of "Tails." Initial interviews with Yuji Naka were met with questionable answers, sometimes giving a "wait and see" approach, other times outright denying "Tails" being in the game.

 

Without reading through all the articles and interviews they have, I can't determine the accuracy of claims that his appearance was denied. Either way, I still think the "wait and see" type answers sound a million times more likely. 

Edited January 10, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Moonfire]

Lurker finally makes an account here. //shot ... so,I'm just going to jump right into the forums.

I've been reading through the posts in this thread, and I agree with the majority of what was said (in the portion that I read). Being a fellow fanfiction writer, it irks me to no end when the author of the story has an inability to correctly comprehend and portray the Sonic characters in their work. I can understand that there is always going to be some level of discrepancy, because Sonic and the group are fictional characters, thus everyone will have their own individual interpretation of the aforementioned characters' deeper intentions and superficial intentions; however, this is only relevant to an extent. Sonic and friends have been around for about 20 years now. They have official personalities. One can only interpret things so far without veering off-course, so to say. No one can argue that Sonic is a psychopath, because he's cocky and beats people up (his foes). No one could interpret that without being completely out of character. I mean, yes, people do have mental breakdowns and they do some crazy things during them, and sure, mental breakdowns could happen to anyone-- even Sonic, but bear in mind that this little hedgehog has seen many undesirable things, and he is extremely mentally strong; it would take a lot to break him. Even if he did break, how long would it last with how supportive his friends are, and would he really become so emotional that he would hit a girl? His official personality is generally kind and caring, adventurous, confident in his abilities. I've read several fan-fictions in which Sonic literally beats Amy, because he was fed up with her incessant intimate advances. The only way for Sonic to ever hit a girl, let alone Amy, his friend, is either by accident, after which copious apologies would ensue, or if his brain were under complete control of some enemy, like Eggman, via some sort of brainwashing device.

I have also seen authors over exaggerate certain traits in characters, Sonic especially. I'm more tolerable of this than Sonic freaking beating the crap out of Amy while not under mind control. The authors tend to over exaggerate his mental strength. I call this immunity, because they literally make Sonic immune to any and all types of fear, anxiety, sadness (-cough- unless it is regarding their Mary-Sue OCs -cough-). Fear and anxiety are human reactions to stressful situations, which Sonic is constantly in. One could argue that he has become desensitized to the danger, because of that (the constant fighting), but I beg to differ. At least initially, where Sonic is first introduced to a new enemy, there is some form of anxiety. Sonic would have just met the enemy; he doesn't know what the bad guy has up his sleeve, his power, his intentions. This uncertainty would instill fear. Over time, I'm sure the anxiety would diminish as he became more familiar with the enemy's tactics, but, in the fan-fictions I am referring to, the authors makes absolutely no mention of fear or anxiety. Sonic is mentally strong, yes that is a fact, but he still has human emotions. When you are humanizing an otherwise inhuman character, at least give them adequate emotional responses. Sonic is not immune to distress. That being said, I can understand how people can make that mistake; they are trying too hard to keep him in character. It is a respectable effort, but it makes the story unrealistic and more unidentifiable; people cannot entirely identify with Sonic in the stressful situations he gets into if he shows no sort of emotion, other than confidence. Any normal person would feel anxious. They can't empathize with someone who doesn't.

This is the last thing, I promise. I absolutely cannot stand when an author not only changes Sonic and friends' personalities, but changes them to fit their OCs. Yes, that's right. The type of characters we all hate- Mary-Sues. Don't get me wrong, I feel like adding OCs is fine. In fact, I enjoy some stories with OCs added, even if it includes romance with a canon character. It all depends on whether they are believable and if they serve a purpose to the story, other than romance. I do not want to sit down and read a 50 chapter long story about Sonic's intimate adventures with someone's OC, even if they are not a Mary-Sue, and Sonic is in character. That is just not my cup of tea. Once in a while, I need a break, and I want to read fluff, but other than that, I will not bother reading stories like that. Another thing that makes me laugh so hard are freaking recolors of Sonic X screenshots, and people call them 'original' characters. I just laugh, even though I was guilty of this when I was first starting out with creating OCs. I guess you need to start somewhere. Even still, I can't help but chuckle to myself at how uncreative people can be.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Moonfire

[Vertekins]

Dunno if I've cited this as a peeve. Frankly I can't be arsed to look through 149 pages to see if I have.

 

Fans applying Sonic's annoying, obnoxious and arrogant SatAM, AoStH and Archie personality to the one in the games and who actually expect it, who honestly believe that he's some kind of mega-egotist, inclined to romance when none of these traits are applicable to game Sonic. Game Sonic is an arrogant guy who also has a great sense of modesty as well and can be interpreted to be either uninterested in romance or shy.

 

Oh! And the hilaribad attempts Sonic X's writers made to get the audience to sympathize with Chris and make him look like a poor little lamb. It screams of misguided attempt to connect with the intended audience when everything about this shameless creator's pet is not relatable to your average Joe and when the Sonic series has already connected with people since it's debut years before X even began airing.

[Kuzu]

Dunno if I've cited this as a peeve. Frankly I can't be arsed to look through 149 pages to see if I have.

 

Fans applying Sonic's annoying, obnoxious and arrogant SatAM, AoStH and Archie personality to the one in the games and who actually expect it, who honestly believe that he's some kind of mega-egotist, inclined to romance when none of these traits are applicable to game Sonic. Game Sonic is an arrogant guy who also has a great sense of modesty as well and can be interpreted to be either uninterested in romance or shy.

 

 

Well...that only applies to Amy honestly, more often than not, Sonic does seem to flirt with the opposite sex quite a bit, or least moreso than people give him credit for.

[Vertekins]

Well...that only applies to Amy honestly, more often than not, Sonic does seem to flirt with the opposite sex quite a bit, or least moreso than people give him credit for.

Sonic is one of those guys who'll give it but won't take it; Whilst he doesn't seem all that opposed to being a tease, he's skittish about being the recipient of romantic interest himself.

Another peeve I have? The scapegoating of the fans for '06's shittiness. It's a common defense of the average '06 defender/fanboy/fangirl, utilizing the fandom's chew toy status to displace culpability from SEGA and those truly responsible for how the game turned out.