Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Diogenes]

The problem with removing Nega for me is that the series as very few evil characters, at lest ones that a used more than once.

This is true, but it doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with Nega. They could introduce a few more antagonists and still give Nega the axe. Even if he is one of the few recurring villains, it's not like he's been made vital to the series.

I mean I think he could be done right, for example look at generations the scene with the two Eggmans was really cool and I really liked their interaction.

That only really works as a one-time thing, I think. It doesn't really work as a long-term solution. And trying to do something like that with Nega wouldn't make me care about him; the Eggmen in Generations were the same Eggman, but Nega's gotta be his own guy (at least to some extent) to not feel redundant and lazy.

[redhellc]

This is true, but it doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with Nega. They could introduce a few more antagonists and still give Nega the axe. Even if he is one of the few recurring villains, it's not like he's been made vital to the series.

Yeah I get what you are saying, It's just it appears that Sonic could use some more recurrent villains to spice up the story.

That only really works as a one-time thing, I think. It doesn't really work as a long-term solution. And trying to do something like that with Nega wouldn't make me care about him; the Eggmen in Generations were the same Eggman, but Nega's gotta be his own guy (at least to some extent) to not feel redundant and lazy.

Well I think that both Eggman and Nega worked great in the cutscenes of the rush series, rivals not so much.But yes nega could use a change, maybe since is in the ifrit dimension he could come from there different,they could start with a desing change and a drastic change in personality.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, for the likes of Dark Pit/Link/Samus and Shadow, they're all meant to be evil versions of good guys (which is getting pretty cliché itself). And they (usually) have a clear personality beyond "this guy, but evil". For instance, Wario's personality isn't an evil version of Mario's - he's his own character with his own charm that doesn't come from him being "evil Mario". And SEGA at least tried to make Shadow seem like a character that was independent and different from Sonic. Besides, the likes of Bass and Wario have their own design that isn't a mere pallette swap of their good counterparts.

And therefore, the your claim that "recolors aren't likable, no matter their personality" is false because there ARE "recolors" who are likable for whatever reason. Dude, you're just contradicting yourself the more you make excuses here.

 

Nega is an evil version of an already evil character, and has little personality beyond a carbon copy of Eggman's, but with all the likable charm to it removed. As a result, it's not only redundant, but it also makes the original Eggman look inferior by comparison. As someone on here once said (I think Dr. Crusher?), it's like if Capcom made a doppelganger to Dr. Wily who looked exactly the same, but was purple and was more competent and eviler than Wily - why not just axe Wily and make "Dark Wily" the new villain - he's more effective as a villain than the old one, why bother keeping the old fool around?

Do you know what they could do to make Nega stand out before going with the solution to axe him? They make his personality more distinct from Eggman rather than being a carbon copy; they give him his own likable charm (assuming it's possible, because it's no guarantee either way); make Eggman just as competent or have his own moments of one-upping his copy; make Nega just as fallible in his own right; change his outfit to where, while he can be seen with a resemblance to Eggman, his silhouette is much different. I could keep going.

 

You don't throw away a car and get a new one just because you get into a wreck, you try to get it repaired; and by contrast you don't suggest getting rid of a character because you don't like it if there is some chance that the character can be changed into something better. I don't care for Nega either, but this stuff isn't beyond repair, and you're refusing to bother looking at alternatives aside from getting rid of him.

And I'd say the audience who likes dark recolours are the same guys who write fanfics with overpowered Gary Stus - most 13 year olds do.

So, anyone who likes Dark Link, Dark Samus, and Dark Pit, and Shadow (such as myself) are 13 year people who like and write about overpowered Gary Stus (which I don't)? I mean, really? You go about defending the recolors in the first paragraph, but then you go and mock the people who like them? 

 

I don't think that's what you meant to say, but you need to choose your words carefully, dude.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

The point is: I hate Nega, he was a stupid execution of a potentially good idea (Sonic and Blaze look nothing alike: why can't Eggman and his Sol counterpart look nothing alike?), he makes the original Eggman look worthless as a credible villain, it's a lazy way to introduce new villains into Sonic (take one guy and colour him differently), he stands as a seal of approval to bad recolours, he has the same trying-too-hard elements Scourge has (leather, shades) and I could do a hell of a lot better with his design and personality.

 

And the name: Eggman Nega? If Eggman's counterpart (this is working with the mindset that the Rivals games aren't made yet) is named after himself, but with Nega slapped on, then by the designer's logic, Blaze should be a red Sonic who's more heroic and faster named Sonic Nega.

[Diogenes]

You don't throw away a car and get a new one just because you get into a wreck,

Sometimes y'do. Depends on the damage. And Nega, I would say, is a hell of a lot of damage.

[JezMM]

The point is: I hate Nega, he was a stupid execution of a potentially good idea (Sonic and Blaze look nothing alike: why can't Eggman and his Sol counterpart look nothing alike?), he makes the original Eggman look worthless as a credible villain, it's a lazy way to introduce new villains into Sonic (take one guy and colour him differently), he stands as a seal of approval to bad recolours, he has the same trying-too-hard elements Scourge has (leather, shades) and I could do a hell of a lot better with his design and personality.

 

And the name: Eggman Nega? If Eggman's counterpart (this is working with the mindset that the Rivals games aren't made yet) is named after himself, but with Nega slapped on, then by the designer's logic, Blaze should be a red Sonic who's more heroic and faster named Sonic Nega.

 

If we are to consider Rivals AND Rush canon (which I like to do in my personal headcanons), Eggman Nega was in fact Eggman's descendant from the far future, who simply posed as his dimensional equal in order to work with his great great great great great grandfather without arising any paradoxes through Eggman knowing of the time travel involved.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The point is: I hate Nega, he was a stupid execution of a potentially good idea (Sonic and Blaze look nothing alike: why can't Eggman and his Sol counterpart look nothing alike?), he makes the original Eggman look worthless as a credible villain, it's a lazy way to introduce new villains into Sonic (take one guy and colour him differently), he stands as a seal of approval to bad recolours, he has the same trying-too-hard elements Scourge has (leather, shades) and I could do a hell of a lot better with his design and personality.

And the name: Eggman Nega? If Eggman's counterpart (this is working with the mindset that the Rivals games aren't made yet) is named after himself, but with Nega slapped on, then by the designer's logic, Blaze should be a red Sonic who's more heroic and faster named Sonic Nega.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about how much you hate him since I don't care about him myself, nor do I care about the reasons why you hate him after I just gave you several ideas on how to deal with each and everyone of them short of renaming him, but that doesn't excuse throwing him away as the first and only solution. Regardless of what I like or dislike, if there's a way to fix something before going with the option of throwing it away, I find it to be very lazy not to even try before exhausting your options. It's all too easy to just throw away a character, and because of that easiness that option would be better left when you've tried everything else.

 

Sometimes y'do. Depends on the damage. And Nega, I would say, is a hell of a lot of damage.

Yeah, and I believe I addressed the damage done in the sentences that you blatantly omitted. Nevermind the ways we could actually go about dealing with those damages in the previous paragraph.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

You can fix a car with scratches, but you can't fix a car with all the bodywork crushed to pieces, the framework rusty and unstable, the windows shattered beyond repair, the wheels melted to uselessness... and when a better car is made, why bother fixing an unholy wreck when you can dump it and get a shiny new one that does several things better than the old car?

 

Nega is the carwreck, by the way. Just to use Dio's metaphor.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You can fix a car with scratches, but you can't fix a car with all the bodywork crushed to pieces, the framework rusty and unstable, the windows shattered beyond repair, the wheels melted to uselessness... and when a better car is made, why bother fixing an unholy wreck when you can dump it and get a shiny new one that does several things better than the old car?

 

Nega is the carwreck, by the way. Just to use Dio's metaphor.

Now you're being unreasonable. But I'll bite anyway and use that metaphor: you wanna know what else was once a carwreck? How about this entire Sonic series when ShTH came out and later when Sonic 06 was released in the sorry state it was? 

 

ShTH already ruined the series reputation and turned the series into a carwreck, and Sonic 06 did that tenfold to the point where the whole car exploded and left things into a burning car frame. 

 

But what happened? Miraculously, rather than throwing away the car, someone actually managed to take that burning car frame and actually do what was thought to be impossible outside the fandom and fix it by replacing parts that were damaged or destroyed. Managed to replace the engine while doing a lacking job with Unleashed with faulty parts and frame that still got it moving, managed to replace the faulty parts in Colors to make it move better, and then seemed to make the car actually decent come around Generations. They took the series from that point in 2006, and did a Pimp My Ride in 2008 and beyond. Not that I fully support things as it is, but that's beside the point.

 

The point is that if the franchise can recover from a major carwreck like that which by all means should have rendered this series dead, do you really expect me to believe that a single character like Nega cannot? And believe me when I say that we can go at this all day.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

I dunno, SEGA's suffering financial losses, most likely relating to 06's failure, and I hear a few here are saying that they're going kaput. Seems the carwreck had lasting effects.

 

And for characters, that requires the writers to actually care about characters other than Sonic, Tails and Eggman. Which doesn't seem to be the case. Besides, Nega's basically dead, so I'd be happy for the whole "doppelganger" thing to be retconned (which it pretty much has been) and Eggman's actual Sol counterpart and Blaze's enemy to be introduced.

 

Now that I think about it... maybe Nega is a self-given title to fool Eggman into thinking he was his doppelganger, and he decided to keep it in Rivals because it somewhat sounded like "Neo". Neo Eggman, that's what they should've called him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I dunno, SEGA's suffering financial losses, most likely relating to 06's failure, and I hear a few here are saying that they're going kaput. Seems the carwreck had lasting effects.

that Sega is suffering financial losses primarily because they don't advertise their other games that don't have a blue hedgehog on them. It has very little to do with Sonic 06, especially when Sonic Unleashed and ironically ShTH managed to do just fine by comparison.

 

It has also been stated that Sega is only a department of a much larger company called Sega-Sammy that's actually doing just fine financially. Sega by itself maybe suffering, but with the bigger parts of it still standing strong, they won't be going kaput anytime soon.

 

This is all completely beside the point, however.

And for characters, that requires the writers to actually care about characters other than Sonic, Tails and Eggman. Which doesn't seem to be the case. Besides, Nega's basically dead, so I'd be happy for the whole "doppelganger" thing to be retconned (which it pretty much has been) and Eggman's actual Sol counterpart and Blaze's enemy to be introduced.

Yeah, until we hear more from the mouths of Sonic Team themselves, that's best left in the unknown as to what happened to Nega or what they may plan to do with him if they decide what to do with him.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Last we saw of Nega (spinoffs notwithstanding) he was in Hell with a giant fire beast. I think it's safe to assume he's dead or otherwise incapacitated until further notice.

 

Also, did not know that part about the financial problems. Needless to say, I'm not taking buisiness studies anytime soon.

 

New peeve: Casinopolis. Getting 400 rings is a massive chore, even with the hidden passage and you get hit once, it's all over. And Knuckles'... emerald finding is a massive chore, and the fiddly camera doesn't help.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Last we saw of Nega (spinoffs notwithstanding) he was in Hell with a giant fire beast. I think it's safe to assume he's dead or otherwise incapacitated until further notice.

Except Rivals isn't even canon in the first place, regardless of whether you choose to use spinoffs. Nevermind that it would drag the whole plothole it has with Blaze and Silver in the first place to where a retcon via word of god was necessary to sort the mess out and that even the people behind Rivals went ahead to retcon that Nega was from another dimension rather than from the future.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Iizuka said at Sonic Boom 2012 that Nega is from the future, NOT another dimension, and I'm sure bios for Silver use his Rivals backstory. Those pretty much confirm Rivals as canon. Besides, if Rivals isn't canon, then how the hell can Silver canonically exist otherwise (what with 06 being erased at the end)?

Edited December 29, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Iizuka said at Sonic Boom 2012 that Nega is from the future, NOT another dimension, and I'm sure bios for Silver use his Rivals backstory. Those pretty much confirm Rivals as canon. Besides, if Rivals isn't canon, then how the hell can Silver canonically exist otherwise (what with 06 being erased at the end)?

Great, then Iizuka's pretty much continuing the plothole with Blaze, Nega, and Silver until he clarifies that further.

 

Funny, because Taylor Miller at Backbone Entertainment who was the producer of the Rivals games went and clarified that descrepancy before Sonic Boom 2012 by saying that Nega was from another dimension. (page 6) It seems Phos was right when he told me not to take Iizuka's words at face value since it contradicts other sources.

 

None of this has anything to prevent Silver from canonically existing, but as for how would be difficult to answer without making it a mess.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Iizuka's the main director for most Sonic games, right? So that means that whatever he says is canon. He says that Silver and Nega are from the future, and Blaze is from another dimension. Blaze was in Sonic 06 because *mumble mumble* (or ).

Edited December 29, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Iizuka's the main director for most Sonic games, right? 

Not entirely. He was the director for SA2, ShTH, and even the Rivals (surprise surprise) while being the producer (and therefore the one in charge of everything) when he was involved in Colors. During most of that period, Yuji Naka was in charge if I remember correctly since he was the producer before leaving prior to Sonic 06.

 

So that means that whatever he says is canon. He says that Silver and Nega are from the future, and Blaze is from another dimension. Blaze was in Sonic 06 because *mumble mumble* (or ).

It also means that he's only further making a mess by contradicting what was already established. He had a helping hand behind Rivals, where the folks he helped said that Nega was from another dimension, and now he's saying that Nega is from the future. Meaning his words can't always be a reliable source.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Iizuka seems to be in a Naka-esque position now, so there's that. And they're just picking one backstory for each character and running with it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Iizuka seems to be in a Naka-esque position now, so there's that. And they're just picking one backstory for each character and running with it.

Yeah, that's what I was saying when I said he was the producer in charge of everything. But that still doesn't change that it's become a mess by his word alone.

 

Blaze was also confirmed by Iizuka from Sonic Boom 2012 to be from the Sol Dimension instead of the future, the same dimension where Nega was encountered first and continued to be encountered. Add on to how Iizuka had a hand in Rivals (where they stated Nega was from another dimension), and how Iizuka decided to change it by having Nega from the future despite all this above, and it becomes clear that Iizuka has no idea what backstory to stick with and run with since he can't make up his mind.

 

By the way, I know what you're trying to do by telling me this, so you can justify having Nega be out of the series in Irift's dimension. But that's not going to work when Iizuka doesn't seem to be capable of being coherent regarding these details.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Think of it like this: Nega hails from the future, went to the Sol Dimension, Rush games happen, then Nega goes back to the future and decides to get rid of Eggman, then the Rivals games happen.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Think of it like this: Nega hails from the future, went to the Sol Dimension, Rush games happen, then Nega goes back to the future and decides to get rid of Eggman, then the Rivals games happen.

No.

 

That's a mess, and I'm not going to think of it as anything until I see some canon details explaining this mess. And needless to say Sonic 06 ruins that thought process anyway since Blaze and Silver were together despite how they should have been from different dimensions.

 

And I realize that this is just getting beyond off-topic at this point. So I'm just gonna stop here.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Y'know, you could just ignore 06... that had multiple continuity problems, and it retconned itself anyway, so it barely matters...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Y'know, you could just ignore 06... that had multiple continuity problems, and it retconned itself anyway, so it barely matters...

I will not for many reasons, and I'm not going to have this discussion any further about it since we're already off topic.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Sandopolis. I just hate how it drags on and how there's no quick way through the level. The fact that desert levels tend to be bleh for me doesn't help.

[Semi-colon e]

Sandopolis. I just hate how it drags on and how there's no quick way through the level. The fact that desert levels tend to be bleh for me doesn't help.

 

I find desert levels in general to be some of the least fun levels in Sonic games. Sandopolis is pretty annoying, obviously. But you've also got Dusty Desert in 06, which is one of Sonic's better levels because it's short, but fucking horrendous as anyone else (and is the worst part of End of the World too), Mirage Road in Rush with it's constant "kill all the enemies to proceed" nonsense, Oil Desert's annoying enemy placement and slow boss fight in Episode 2, and some of the pyramid levels in SA2 are also pretty annoying to play (Pyramid Cave is pretty cool though).

 

And most of them have the same gimmicks as well, egyptian style pyramids, ghosts, hourglasses, ruins, and sand. Oil Desert is really the only one to mix it up, and it's mostly thematically. I suppose there's Shamar as well, but it's really bland as both Sonic and Werehog.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Semi-colon e