Metal Sonic vs. Shadow the Hedgehog

[Emmett L. Brown]

He's saying what's the difference between Metal Sonic and a generic Egg Pawn if all he's going to be used for is just another stepping stone for Sonic to crush.

I think the difference between Metal Sonic and an Egg Pawn is fairly obvious in gameplay terms. In storyline terms, you nailed it: Both are weapons created by Eggman to stop Sonic, and that's precisely the role I think they should have. Silver Sonic barely exists in canon outside of a single boss fight, but damned if it wasn't memorable to suddenly run into a robotic douplicate after spending the first two games fighting nothing but Eggomatic vehicles. Mecha Sonic is so unremarkable in-story that we don't even know if it was obeying Eggman or disobeying him when it stole the Master Emerald, but it provided some of the best boss fights of the series and that's memorable for an entire generation.

As for Metal Sonic...well...his first appearance and boss fight remains one of the finest moments of the Genesis (ish) generation. That's the role he was introduced into, that's the role I want him to remain in. Just a fucking awesome boss fight.

The beauty of Metal is that he's a robot. As a robot we don't need to automatically assume that he has to have personal motivations and goals. Shadow doesn't have that benefit. It annoys me that he doesn't seem to have a purpose in the series (seriously, I really do want an explanation for what he's about after his eponymous game).

EDIT: Whoops, missed that antihero explanation.

I am unsatisfied.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Kuzu]

I think the difference between Metal Sonic and an Egg Pawn is fairly obvious in gameplay terms. In storyline terms, you nailed it: Both are weapons created by Eggman to stop Sonic, and that's precisely the role I think they should have. Silver Sonic barely exists in canon outside of a single boss fight, but damned if it wasn't memorable to suddenly run into a robotic douplicate after spending the first two games fighting nothing but Eggomatic vehicles. Mecha Sonic is so unremarkable in-story that we don't even know if it was obeying Eggman or disobeying him when it stole the Master Emerald, but it provided some of the best boss fights of the series and that's memorable for an entire generation.

As for Metal Sonic...well...his first appearance and boss fight remains one of the finest moments of the Genesis (ish) generation. That's the role he was introduced into, that's the role I want him to remain in. Just a fucking awesome boss fight.

So why the hell can't he have an actual personality in addition to being an awesome boss fight? If his ultimate contribution to the series is to just be fodder, he may as well not exist.

The beauty of Metal is that he's a robot. As a robot we don't need to automatically assume that he has to have personal motivations and goals.

Yes we can, that's the entire point of being a fucking character.

EDIT: Whoops, missed that antihero explanation.

I am unsatisfied.

Do I need to make a lengthy essay about it?

Edited June 14, 2012 by The Batman

[Emmett L. Brown]

So why the hell can't he have an actual personality in addition to being an awesome boss fight? If his ultimate contribution to the series is to just be fodder, he may as well not exist.

Yes we can, that's the entire point of being a fucking character.

I'm sorry? If an awesome boss doesn't have character development then he shouldn't be in the video game? We seem to have entirely different priorities on this one. Take Ridley, for example. Outside of that silly manga only released in Japan, just how much character development does he have in Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3? Virtually none. But I don't care. Ridley is a boss fight I look forward to when I'm playing Metroid, and it doesn't matter to me one bit that he has no dialogue, no character, no development. As far as we know (again, ignoring that manga) he can't even talk.

I'm not saying all bosses should be flat character with no development, but I am saying that certain characters do fit that role. Metal Sonic is one of them.

(My god, Ridley was lame in Metroid Other M. DEFINITELY ignoring that one)

Edited June 14, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Kuzu]

I'm sorry? If an awesome boss doesn't have character development then he shouldn't be in the video game? We seem to have entirely different priorities on this one. Take Ridley, for example. Outside of that silly manga only released in Japan, just how much character development does he have in Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3? Virtually none. But I don't care. Ridley is a boss fight I look forward to when I'm playing Metroid, and it doesn't matter to me one bit that he has no dialogue, no character, no development. As far as we know (again, ignoring that manga) he can't even talk.

I'm not saying all bosses should be flat character with no development, but I am saying that certain characters do fit that role. Metal Sonic is one of them.

Says who? Is there some rulebook that claims that some recurring boss characters aren't allowed to have personalities? I don't care about Ridley, he's not apart of his conversation. The problem is, you're talking about Metal Sonic as if he's nothing more than a boss fight, we're talking about how he can be more than just that alone, just because he makes for a good boss fight most of the time doesn't mean we can't actually do something relevant with the character outside of that.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Says who? Is there some rulebook that claims that some recurring boss characters aren't allowed to have personalities? I don't care about Ridley, he's not apart of his conversation. The problem is, you're talking about Metal Sonic as if he's nothing more than a boss fight, we're talking about how he can be more than just that alone, just because he makes for a good boss fight most of the time doesn't mean we can't actually do something relevant with the character outside of that.

Alright, Batman. Riddle me this: You've spent quite a few posts telling me I'm wrong. How about instead of doing that you tell me what you think is right for Metal Sonic. I did a quick browse through the thread, and you've got a lot of ideas about what the problems are, but I'm eager to hear your solutions.

(PS: We are NOT discussing how Metal Sonic can be more than a boss fight. What's actually happening is that you're arguing that that has to be the case, and I'm arguing that no it doesn't. If you manage to present a case where adding character to Metal will improve his overall presence in the series, then I promise I'll abandon my argument and be won over. And then high-fives all around)

(PPS: Comparisons with other video game character is pretty dang relevant when we're talking about video game characters. You don't arbitrarily get to decide the rules of the debate. You can make comparisons too if you want. For example, if you know a recurring boss character who was improved by adding fleshing them out, then that'd totally strengthen your case.)

[Kuzu]

Alright, Batman. Riddle me this: You've spent quite a few posts telling me I'm wrong. How about instead of doing that you tell me what you think is right for Metal Sonic. I did a quick browse through the thread, and you've got a lot of ideas about what the problems are, but I'm eager to hear your solutions.

Edited June 14, 2012 by The Batman

[Emmett L. Brown]

Hot damn! That actually is pretty awesome. Metal Sonic as a Terminator type character. I could really get behind that.

I'm still happy to have Metal Sonic in the role of the flat boss, but I wouldn't mind seeing him put in cutscenes with an implacable man personality. When I thought of fleshing him out I kept flashing back to Heroes with the stereotypical megalomaniacal villain dialogue and unnecessary posing.

Good job, Batman. You've saved the day once again.

[Kuzu]

Hot damn! That actually is pretty awesome. Metal Sonic as a Terminator type character. I could really get behind that.

I'm still happy to have Metal Sonic in the role of the flat boss, but I wouldn't mind seeing him put in cutscenes with an implacable man personality. When I thought of fleshing him out I kept flashing back to Heroes with the stereotypical megalomaniacal villain dialogue and unnecessary posing.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Alright. Shadow is an anti-hero. Which means he's a hero without heroic traits. An exciting direction to go maybe back in the early nineties, but today it's probably the most boring character archetype in the world. Fortunately, I believe there's more to Shadow...but I have no idea what.

I actually liked Shadow's game for letting you take each of Shadow's personality traits to their logical conclusion. His nihilism, his nostalgia, his remorse, his vindictiveness, his pride, and his heroism. You got a story path for each leading to Shadow declaring that which ever aspect you embraced was WHO HE IS. But then there's the disconnected final story, where Shadow declares that he'll no longer be controlled by his past. Which is great, except his past is the only thing that defines him as a character. Take that away, and...what's left? I don't know. I really have no idea.

What does he want?

Now that his story arc is finished, I don't know what to do with him. That he just shows up in Generations and fights Sonic for no real reason seems fitting for where he is right now, character-wise.

[Komodin]

But let's move on to Shadow shall we? That issue hasn't been resolved.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Well, at this point, I think it would be best to just roll with his Sonic Free Riders characterization; it's pretty much the best he's ever been characterized in the "Modern Era".

[Aquaslash]

Both he and Rouge are colossal self serving douchebags, whose apathy towards a tiring teammate manages to piss off everyone else in the race. It's a slight step up for both of them since Rivals 2.

[Kuzu]

Alright. Shadow is an anti-hero. Which means he's a hero without heroic traits. An exciting direction to go maybe back in the early nineties, but today it's probably the most boring character archetype in the world. Fortunately, I believe there's more to Shadow...but I have no idea what.

Antihero by itself isn't a boring character archetype, how it's used is what makes it boring or interesting; now I admit, the whole "Hero with a bad attitude" has been done to death, but you can add more to it to make it interesting at least.

I actually liked Shadow's game for letting you take each of Shadow's personality traits to their logical conclusion. His nihilism, his nostalgia, his remorse, his vindictiveness, his pride, and his heroism. You got a story path for each leading to Shadow declaring that which ever aspect you embraced was WHO HE IS. But then there's the disconnected final story, where Shadow declares that he'll no longer be controlled by his past. Which is great, except his past is the only thing that defines him as a character. Take that away, and...what's left? I don't know. I really have no idea.

How is it that you can say all of the personality traits Shadow has, but then say he's completely defined by his past? I mean I get what you're saying in that his story arc is over, but what's stopping him from having another? I don't get this stigma if that a character's introductory arc is over, what is stopping them from making more appearances? That's like saying Tails or Amy can't appear anymore since their story arcs from Sonic Adventure were resolved.

What does he want?

To protect the world....from devastation.

Now that his story arc is finished, I don't know what to do with him. That he just shows up in Generations and fights Sonic for no real reason seems fitting for where he is right now, character-wise.

He's a GUN agent now, and a character that's actively working towards peace, there are literally a million things you can do with him, in addition to the fact that he's a dark doppelganger of Sonic.

But to elaborate; since Shadow's discovered his purpose as to defend the planet and preserve peace, just run with it from there. Have his primary motivation be to preserve peace and tranquility, but only those two; have him be disinterested in being a hero like Sonic, and more someone who wants to get his job done in the most efficient way possible. He can also be a major prick about it, have him belittle people who he feels are beneath him

[UltDevilDoom]

Sonic '06 couldn't have been much worse, but it did have a somehat entertaining storyline for Shadow. The whole "fear of power" stuff could be a setup for another Shadow game.

That is, if Sega ever makes another Shadow game that's worth playing.

As for Metal Sonic, Episode Metal 2 is just not deserving of any continuaton whatsoever. Cut-and-paste Metal Sonic, combined with false advertising (alliance?) and a story that can be explained in five seconds or less, made me purchase Sonic 4: Episode 2 from Xbox Live just to avoid it.

Edited June 15, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[UltDevilDoom]

Antihero by itself isn't a boring character archetype, how it's used is what makes it boring or interesting; now I admit, the whole "Hero with a bad attitude" has been done to death, but you can add more to it to make it interesting at least.

How is it that you can say all of the personality traits Shadow has, but then say he's completely defined by his past? I mean I get what you're saying in that his story arc is over, but what's stopping him from having another? I don't get this stigma if that a character's introductory arc is over, what is stopping them from making more appearances? That's like saying Tails or Amy can't appear anymore since their story arcs from Sonic Adventure were resolved.

To protect the world....from devastation.

He's a GUN agent now, and a character that's actively working towards peace, there are literally a million things you can do with him, in addition to the fact that he's a dark doppelganger of Sonic.

But to elaborate; since Shadow's discovered his purpose as to defend the planet and preserve peace, just run with it from there. Have his primary motivation be to preserve peace and tranquility, but only those two; have him be disinterested in being a hero like Sonic, and more someone who wants to get his job done in the most efficient way possible. He can also be a major prick about it, have him belittle people who he feels are beneath him

Edited June 15, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Now that his story arc is finished, I don't know what to do with him. That he just shows up in Generations and fights Sonic for no real reason seems fitting for where he is right now, character-wise.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Okay, really, what's with this logic of how there's nothing to do for a character if they're story ended? I'm almost inclined to think some people don't even want to bother thinking of what else to do with the character when they say that.

Okay, so we have his status a GUN agent, there's many different things you can do with that by itself. If you want more to brainstorm, we could make him into a renegade hero than Sonic without GUN, mercenary, wandering vagabond, mentor (by virtue of being the eldest character in the cast), etc. Some of those I just thought up out of the blue and you could easily goof those to where they're not suitable for him, but really it shouldn't be all that difficult to think of what to do for a character like Shadow.

Well, it's a good thing you didn't say what you were almost inclined to say, beacuse that would have been rude and unnecessary. Just because I don't know what to do with Shadow doesn't mean I think there's doesn't exist anything for him to do. I actually do want to hear better ideas than I have.

Considering how obscenely powerful Shadow is, it's interesting just to explore why he hasn't reacted when the world has been in peril the last couple of times. Or heck, maybe he did react and pursued his own means to protect the world - that's character development potential right there.

My point to begin with was simply that Shadow needs more character. I just can't picture Shadow having a hobby, or what he would do in his downtime. I can't picture Shadow having fun. Well, except the kind of fun he gets from utterly destroying his foes with a smug grin. I'd like to see more of his personality. Or do we already have a clear picture of Shadow's personality from his appearances so far? What do you think, CSS?

[Kuzu]

Considering how obscenely powerful Shadow is, it's interesting just to explore why he hasn't reacted when the world has been in peril the last couple of times. Or heck, maybe he did react and pursued his own means to protect the world - that's character development potential right there.

Because Sonic Team are too lazy to think of anything, in addition to the fact that everyone is still bitter about him taking over the franchise.

My point to begin with was simply that Shadow needs more character. I just can't picture Shadow having a hobby, or what he would do in his downtime. I can't picture Shadow having fun. Well, except the kind of fun he gets from utterly destroying his foes with a smug grin. I'd like to see more of his personality. Or do we already have a clear picture of Shadow's personality from his appearances so far? What do you think, CSS?

Well he was kind of a dick to virtually everyone in Free Riders, but I do kind of agree, but you could just make Shadow all about business and have the other characters comment on that huge stick up his butt.

[Nintendoga]

I like Metal Sonic more then Shadow

[UltDevilDoom]

Shadow shouldn't take over the franchise again (except for another Shadow game), but he definetly deserves another big role in Sonic games.

He also needs another voice actor, like at least half of all the characters at the very least. Where does Sega come up with voice actors nowadays?

Edited June 15, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, it's a good thing you didn't say what you were almost inclined to say, beacuse that would have been rude and unnecessary. Just because I don't know what to do with Shadow doesn't mean I think there's doesn't exist anything for him to do. I actually do want to hear better ideas than I have.

See, the reason I say that is because most people who tend to say "his story is done and yadda yadda" usually say that behind the air that they don't want the character to be around anymore and play like there's absolutely, positively nothing more the character can do. I'm not trying to demonize you or anything, it's just that I've been hearing that exact shit since 2006 and by now I would expect people to at the very least think before they say that around here when someone could very easily throw ideas in your face based on what the character already has going for them.

And if you think that would be rude, I could be an asshole and name no less than 10 people by memory who've done just that all those years ago (and for some, they still do). So you can see why that irks me a lot.

Considering how obscenely powerful Shadow is, it's interesting just to explore why he hasn't reacted when the world has been in peril the last couple of times. Or heck, maybe he did react and pursued his own means to protect the world - that's character development potential right there.

To be honest, I'd say that's more of Sonic Team playing too safe with the "Sonic only" path in the main games since Sonic 06. Although it would help if we got that kind of explanation, so that could be worth looking into.

My point to begin with was simply that Shadow needs more character. I just can't picture Shadow having a hobby, or what he would do in his downtime. I can't picture Shadow having fun. Well, except the kind of fun he gets from utterly destroying his foes with a smug grin. I'd like to see more of his personality. Or do we already have a clear picture of Shadow's personality from his appearances so far? What do you think, CSS?

There's more that can be done with the character, that much can be said.

And here's what I said at the very start of the Shadow Topic that would very much apply here.

Okay, really. Shadow's in a bit of an awkward state because although he's free to show up whenever he please, usually his presence would mean something major is about to happen. Honestly, I'd like to use the character more casually like other characters, lightening up his attitude into more warmer territories, all while still having him be a bit anti-social and dickish at times.

He and Rouge can be used to explore a few interesting traits with GUN, and I've always wanted to see the two command a small strike team of soldiers for some reason because of that. He can show a bit of a duality where Sonic is a goof who wrecks Eggman's plans for the fun of it (and occassional seriousness), Shadow response with a bit more disproportionate response and blows Eggman's base up with the attitude of a stoic soldier.

And every now and then, just to lighten the mood with him, throw him into a few slapstick situations so we can laugh at the hijinks. Just because he's stoic doesn't mean he shouldn't have any comedy to him.

In fact, the Shadow Topic is the very place that discusses more about using the character.

Edited June 16, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dobe Tron]

Shadow would win IMO, part of the fact he doesn't really have any frailties(made up by fanon at least) or limits in a fight, plus he can tap into the chaos emeralds power or remove his inhibitor realease to make himself more powerful than Metal is, his supressors will over whelm Metal Sonic's functions.

 

Sonic's power level also surpasses Metal Sonic, shown in generations and Sonic 4 episode 2.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And Metal can copy his powers?

 

Think we have a bit of a fanboy here...

[Mogtaki]

I think people get confused between directly copying their powers and simply collecting data on the powers to fully understand them and create tactics to use against these powers, like a machine can do.

 

Then again, Sega are about as vague as anything when it comes to powers.