Metal Sonic vs. Shadow the Hedgehog

[Kuzu]

Metal is designed to be a "better" Sonic, since Sonic and Shadow are basically on par when it comes to abilities, wouldn't logic dictate that Metal easily can surpass Shadow's physical abilities?

Chaos Powers mean absolutely nothing in this case, Metal is arguably faster, stronger, and can be upgraded to be better than basically anybody.

All of this is moot anyway, because it basically comes down to has the bigger plot armor.

[UltDevilDoom]

Metal is designed to be a "better" Sonic, since Sonic and Shadow are basically on par when it comes to abilities, wouldn't logic dictate that Metal easily can surpass Shadow's physical abilities?

Chaos Powers mean absolutely nothing in this case, Metal is arguably faster, stronger, and can be upgraded to be better than basically anybody.

All of this is moot anyway, because it basically comes down to has the bigger plot armor.

If what you say is true about Metal Sonic being a "better" Sonic, then Metal Sonic would have beaten Sonic by now. And I doubt that is the case only because of the plots in Sonic games.

And why do Chaos Powers mean nothing?

Look, I'm no Shadow fanboy. I don't mindlessly worship him as a god. I just think he's the best rival for Sonic. If you think Metal is better, fine. We don't need a shit storm over something like this.

Edited June 4, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[Kuzu]

If what you say is true, then Metal Sonic would have beaten Sonic by now. And I doubt that is the case only because of the plots in Sonic games.

yes it is. In order for the story to progress, Sonic needs to win most of his fights; it can't really go anywhere if the main character loses does it?

Trying to use a video game to determine who's the strongest is ludicrous, because there are so many variables to consider.

[Komodin]

If what you say is true, then Metal Sonic would have beaten Sonic by now. And I doubt that is the case only because of the plots in Sonic games.

As I've said before, Sonic has a nigh-impenetrable Plot Armor; nobody will beat him unless the plot deigns it necessary, and even then, as shown with his death in Sonic 2006, it will not stick.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Komodin

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

yes it is. In order for the story to progress, Sonic needs to win most of his fights; it can't really go anywhere if the main character loses does it?

We're talking in the grand scheme of things right?

I mean if Sonic loses, yeah it can still progress. He just has to go from a Downer Ending and work harder for a Happy one.

If we're talking about flat out killing him? Yeah, fat chance of that.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

We're talking in the grand scheme of things right?

I mean if Sonic loses, yeah it can still progress. He just has to go from a Downer Ending and work harder for a Happy one.

But this a video game; having a cool boss be in a cutscene just seems like a copout, and I'm not too sure about a hopeless boss fight. Throwing a boss fight that you literally cannot win just seems infuriating.

[Emmett L. Brown]

As I've said before, Sonic has a nigh-impenetrable Plot Armor; nobody will beat him unless the plot deigns it necessary, and even then, as shown with his death in Sonic 2006, it will not stick.

Yeah, that generally is the case when the main character's name is in the title of almost every installment of the franchise. But be fair; Sonic almost always fails to defeat/attack/stop a newly-introduced rival when they first show up. Metal Sonic kidnapped Amy; Knuckles stole the Chaos Emeralds and got Sonic to fall for several traps; Shadow out-Chaos'd him; Silver almost killed him twice; Jet beat him in two different races...etc.

It's decent storytelling. You gotta build up the rival before the hero inevitably surpasses them at the end.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But this a video game; having a cool boss be in a cutscene just seems like a copout, and I'm not too sure about a hopeless boss fight. Throwing a boss fight that you literally cannot win just seems infuriating.

I thought we were just talking about the story not a boss fight?

[Aquaslash]

I think the chaos powers are stronger than Metal Sonic's unique abilities.

They are most definitely not. If Sonic 4 is anything to go by, his "hyper mode" allows him to keep up with Super Sonic, even going so far as to cause a temporary recoil! (which was bullslag btw cause it made me fall into a hole )

Edited June 4, 2012 by Aquaslash

[Kuzu]

I thought we were just talking about the story not a boss fight?

Well would you want Metal Sonic to be a cutscene boss fight?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well would you want Metal Sonic to be a cutscene boss fight?

No, but that doesn't mean after you, the player, kick Metal Sonic's ass in an actual boss fight that the cutscene that plays after it can't show Sonic losing.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

No, but that doesn't mean after you, the player, kick Metal Sonic's ass in an actual boss fight that the cutscene that plays after it can't show Sonic losing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Wouldn't that be kind of annoying? I mean you kick a boss` ass, only for it to not count and lose anyway.

No?

That's just gameplay and story segregation. Here's the hypothetical situation.

Metal Sonic is looking for a Chaos Emerald and Shadow confronts him in the area where the jewel is located. Then they fight and the game switches control to the player. The player is fighting the boss withering his health down until it reaches zero. The player won the fight. Then it switches to the cutscene in which it continues the fight after the gameplay part, and after a certain moment the emerald's location is pin-pointed. Shadow tries to reach it before Metal, but Metal either kicks his ass or gets to the emerald first and gets away. So the player still gets to proceed with the game, but the story dictates that Metal wins in retrieving the Chaos Emerald.

Or better yet, a good example of what I'm talking about would be DMC3 when you first fight Vergil. The player obviously wins in the boss fight, but the story calls for Vergil to get the upper hand in the cutscene by stabbing Dante in his gut with his katana, stealing his amulet, then stabbing Dante again with his own sword before Dante makes a last ditch attempt to attack Vergil before passing out.

[UltDevilDoom]

That idea would take out all of the satisfaction of beating a boss. I was disappointed in DMC3 when Dante lost to Vergil in that first fight. Dante kicked his ass (if the player knew what he was doing)! There were two other fights with Vergil, but still...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That idea would take out all of the satisfaction of beating a boss. I was disappointed in DMC3 when Dante lost to Vergil in that first fight. Dante kicked his ass (if the player knew what he was doing)! There were two other fights with Vergil, but still...

Oh for fucks sake, is the character suppose to win every fight storywise just the player wins the actual fight?

Hell, SA1 had you lose the first Chaos Emerald you had after you had destroyed the Egg Hornet, along with getting ambushed and distracted as he stole the others. Tails defeated Eggman at the end of SA2's hero story and Eggman still got the last emerald to complete his plans. In Sonic Unleashed, Super Sonic himself (his most powerful form capable of killing GODS) gets his arrogant ass handed to him when Eggman sapped the energy from him in Sonic Unleashed before you even get to play him.

You're advocating something that would make it far too easy for a character to be a boring invincible hero here. The character doesn't have to win every fight just because the player won the boss battle.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

Oh for fucks sake, is the character suppose to win every fight storywise just the player wins the actual fight?

Hell, SA1 had you lose the first Chaos Emerald you had after you had destroyed the Egg Hornet, along with getting ambushed and distracted as he stole the others. Tails defeated Eggman at the end of SA2's hero story and Eggman still got the last emerald to complete his plans. In Sonic Unleashed, Super Sonic himself (his most powerful form capable of killing GODS) gets his arrogant ass handed to him when Eggman sapped the energy from him in Sonic Unleashed before you even get to play him.

You're advocating something that would make it far too easy for a character to be a boring invincible hero here. The character doesn't have to win every fight just because the player won the boss battle.

No character in Sonic history is fucking invinicible. But a good boss fight should have a good conclusion. Whether it's kicking ass or getting your ass kicked, all good boss fights should have some form of satisfaction.

[Kuzu]

A good way to do it, would be to show the boss character having the upperhand in the prior cutscene before the boss fight, thereby at least making it somewhat less annoying; alternately you could just have a rematch later.

Actually DMC3 is a good example;

Metal vs. Sonic Round 1: Metal Wins.

Metal vs. Sonic Round 2: They both tie no with clear winner.

Metal vs. Sonic Round 3: Sonic wins.

Edited June 5, 2012 by The Batman

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No character in Sonic history is fucking invinicible.

They might as well be if they shouldn't be allowed to lose a number of fights storywise.

But a good boss fight should have a good conclusion. Whether it's kicking ass or getting your ass kicked, all good boss fights should have some form of satisfaction.

And a bad conclusion to a boss fight shouldn't be allowed? As would be the case with the DMC3 example and other examples?

Heck, there are plenty of other examples, such as Mass Effect 3 in your fight against Kai Leng at Thessia at a VERY crucial moment. Unfortunately for the player, he wins (by running away, the coward) and Thessia falls in the attack. Then there's Bowser automatically winning the first boss fight in the first Paper Mario; Nero getting his ass kicked by Dante in DMC4 even tho the player won the fight to continue and then further getting sucked into the Savior forcing the player to play as Dante for the next portion of the game. I can toss examples at you all day here.

My point is that there's is nothing detrimental to having a bad conclusion for the character storywise after the player wins a boss fight gameplay-wise. The player's going to beat the game regardless, so how is the character losing a fighting during the game a problem?

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Darth InVaders]

A good way to do it, would be to show the boss character having the upperhand in the prior cutscene before the boss fight, thereby at least making it somewhat less annoying; alternately you could just have a rematch later.

Actually DMC3 is a good example;

Metal vs. Sonic Round 1: Metal Wins.

Metal vs. Sonic Round 2: They both tie no with clear winner.

Metal vs. Sonic Round 3: Sonic wins.

Sonic Adventure 2 kind of conformed to that...

Sonic vs Shadow Round 1: Shadow uses his Chaos Emerald to blitz Sonic's speed with Chaos Control

Sonic vs Shadow Round 2: Shadow doesn't have an Emerald for Chaos Control so it is basic fisticuffs and a draw

Sonic vs Shadow Round 3: The Fake Emerald allows both characters to go at each other with Chaos Control, Sonic the hero of the series wins (as all cutscenes are canon)

I don't have a problem with such a build up.

[Emmett L. Brown]

such as Mass Effect 3 in your fight against Kai Leng at Thessia at a VERY crucial moment. Unfortunately for the player, he wins (by running away, the coward) and Thessia falls in the attack.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ironically, Kai Leng is a perfect example of the problem with this trope. His ridiculous cutscene power is taken to Marty Stu levels, especially considering that earlier on he got his ass handed to him by a mortally ill Thane.

You can totally have a boss fight where the player wins, but then the villain pulls out some new trick they didn't use in the fight because it turns out the villain was holding back, or needs the hero to survive in order to carry out their plan. You won the boss fight, but you lose the battle, and you're hyped up for the rematch.

It only get's ridiculously stupid when the villain suddenly turns super-competent and the hero turns super-incompetent the moment the boss fight ands and the cutscene starts. I think that's what UltDevilDoom is worried about. Like with Silver, who beats Sonic effortlessly immediatelly after their boss battle. If only Sonic had some kind of speed to keep him out of psychokinesis range.

I'm not worried about it for the simple fact that villain ALWAYS gets his come-uppance at the end, and I think it's very much common sense not to make a villain into such a Sue of a character.

Such as your point with Kai Leng. The funny thing about Kai Leng's Marty Stu level in the cutscenes is that it is heavily mocked over the course of the game. Kai Leng is this super-badass cyborg assassin with ninja skills and a hand-cannon in his arm, and yet the first time you meet him (and depending on the players actions in previous games) he fails his objective because of a terminally ill alien (who lampshades this) who was able to match him almost blow for blow; Kai Leng ends up pissing off the player even more by showing up at Thessia at a critical moment in the game and despite all his skills he has the balls to summon an attack craft to help him win before stealing the VI; then you finally confront him a last time at Cerberus and he keeps mocking how slow you are before you turn it right back that "I'm only slow because I'm not running, unlike you!" and then you finally finish him off.

Now that's just one example.

Silver was just an example of the developers not thinking things through as easily than Bioware did for Kai Leng, but even then he's not a hopeless boss fight. And that's only added by Sonic getting distracted when he's bodyguarding the princess from Eggman throughout Sonic 06, because each and every time Silver manages to show up Eggman always takes advantage of the distraction.

But of course, you understand my point. I know the risks with the trope, and obviously I don't want to carry it to those lengths.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

They might as well be if they shouldn't be allowed to lose a number of fights storywise.

And a bad conclusion to a boss fight shouldn't be allowed? As would be the case with the DMC3 example and other examples?

Heck, there are plenty of other examples, such as Mass Effect 3 in your fight against Kai Leng at Thessia at a VERY crucial moment. Unfortunately for the player, he wins (by running away, the coward) and Thessia falls in the attack. Then there's Bowser automatically winning the first boss fight in the first Paper Mario; Nero getting his ass kicked by Dante in DMC4 even tho the player won the fight to continue and then further getting sucked into the Savior forcing the player to play as Dante for the next portion of the game. I can toss examples at you all day here.

My point is that there's is nothing detrimental to having a bad conclusion for the character storywise after the player wins a boss fight gameplay-wise. The player's going to beat the game regardless, so how is the character losing a fighting during the game a problem?

I didn't mean a bad conclusion in terms of story. I meant a bad conclusion in terms of the satisfaction (or lack thereof) that the player gets from beating the boss.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't mean a bad conclusion in terms of story. I meant a bad conclusion in terms of the satisfaction (or lack thereof) that the player gets from beating the boss.

And there's nothing wrong with that since the player continues to progress. There are loads of games out there with bad conclusions that leave the player with a sour taste in their mouth if not downright piss them off. That's the whole point in having the character lose a fight in the story after the boss battle, because as soon as the player gets back control he's gonna want a rematch the next time.

And that's exactly what happens in all the examples I gave you where the character loses after the player wins the boss fight. You shouldn't always be made to give the player satisfaction, sometimes you should give them dissatisfaction so that they can actually feel more going on in the plot, and those feelings don't always have to be happy ones.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

You are right in some aspects. If I lose a match because of the storyline, sometimes I do want a re-match badly. The adrenaline starts pumping. It can be a cool experience if it is done right.

At the same time, some matches like that just tend to piss people of in another way, causing them to dislike and sometimes abandon the game.

The developer of the video game needs to know how to frustrate gamers in a good way, leaving them wanting more.

[just cause]

Shadow would win. A biological clone of sonic has greater chances of beating sonic at his peak than a.machine plus Shadow can overwhelmmetal in raw power in chaos boost and in super mode. Shadow also does have that limit to releasing his rings like he does in the comics.