Metal Sonic vs. Shadow the Hedgehog

[ArtFenix]

Can't we just say that both Metal and Shadow are awesome without arguing about who won more times even though everything is dictated by the story and the story as we all know can be changed by sonicteam in a way whichever they feel like.

If Sonicteam want they could make Amy the strongest character ever. They're all their characters and they can do anything with them.

I for one think Shadow is stronger but it's about opinion and anyway I love them both)).

[UltDevilDoom]

Yeah. Opinions are just opinions, not facts.

By now, I'm sure you all know that I think Shadow is better. That's my opinion, and I'm gonna stick with it.

[Aquaslash]

Unless Shadow has a door. That's like kryptonite to Metal Sonic.

Clever. =P I just want to put out that Metal Sonic's deal with doors and walls is that he keeps running into them at the speed of a bullet or faster. Plus, the second one was electrified.

I'm pretty sure Solaris is the strongest because he existed in the past, present, and future at the same time and had to be stop at those points simultaneously by three characters in there super forms...and even then it wasn't enough until they had to fully wipe him out of existence like he was never there.

I don't think the time thing would necessarily count as strength, so much as it would count as incredibly high defense, or some other more fitting term I want to use that I totally can't think of right now.

Actually you could legitimately make the argument that Metal was tougher to beat than Solaris. The attack from Teams Rose, Dark, and Chaotix was only a ploy to stall for time, and had no real effect on Metal other than getting on his nerves. Once he reached his full power, he, just like Solaris, had to be offed by three super characters at the same time. Now to beat Solaris, the three characters had to spread out across time. However, that was only to cover his possible exits. In each single time frame, he was being stopped by a single super character, and said character was using standard attacks.

Meanwhile, Metal had to be beaten by three super characters in the same time frame. Furthermore, he was able to successfully parry all of their standard attacks (or they were able to parry his) so that the only method that they could actually damage him was for all of them to use a super attack at once. Then they had to do it five times.

Then there's the fact that at the end of both battles, Solaris was knocked out, and Metal Sonic was still functioning. Presumably Metal Sonic was able to get up and launch another attack if he wanted to (evidenced by how Team Sonic rushed at him to see if he was going to try anything else), but at that point, he declared all his efforts futile and outright gave up. Solaris, being unconscious, couldn't do a damn thing, and was subsequently exterminated.

So yeah, I'm going to make the argument that Metal Sonic was indeed the strongest foe that Sonic's ever had to face. Furthermore, he never wins because everyone wears plot armor to their battles with him.

[#EndyGate]

Then there's the fact that at the end of both battles, Solaris was knocked out, and Metal Sonic was still functioning. Presumably Metal Sonic was able to get up and launch another attack if he wanted to (evidenced by how Team Sonic rushed at him to see if he was going to try anything else), but at that point, he declared all his efforts futile and outright gave up. Solaris, being unconscious, couldn't do a damn thing, and was subsequently exterminated.

So yeah, I'm going to make the argument that Metal Sonic was indeed the strongest foe that Sonic's ever had to face. Furthermore, he never wins because everyone wears plot armor to their battles with him.

Actually Metal did pass out not long after questioning Sonic's ability to constantly defeat him, as seen when Omega and Shadow grope his body after everyone else runs off

[Aquaslash]

^Did he pass out, or did he voluntarily shut himself down? I've always interpreted it as the former, especially given his downtrodden attitude.

[Darth InVaders]

Now to beat Solaris, the three characters had to spread out across time. However, that was only to cover his possible exits. In each single time frame, he was being stopped by a single super character, and said character was using standard attacks.

You're only speculating that the Superhogs spread themselves out across time - there is also evidence that they were all in the same time frame (communication between the different characters - including spectator characters not fighting, how Solaris would turn around when the hogs changed out, no indication of time travel via flashy light show, etc) and even in this scenario, Solaris was still defeated in the past, present and future (future: by Blaze's sacrifice, present: by Superhogs, past: by Elise blowing out candle). I'm not really taking a position on this, I'm just pointing out that there is too much uncertainty to declare your speculation canon.

[UltDevilDoom]

Clever. =P I just want to put out that Metal Sonic's deal with doors and walls is that he keeps running into them at the speed of a bullet or faster. Plus, the second one was electrified.

If that was truly the case, he would have been able to smash through a door without a problem, electrified or otherwise.

Sheesh, all this Sonic Heroes Metal Sonic bullshit is making me sick. It was and still is universally panned in just about every way. Is that really Metal Sonic fans' biggest argument? To talk about a crappy final boss in a game they probably hate? I think that's a pathetic way to defend any character by any means.

Here is a list of all the times Sonic fought Shadow:

Sonic Adventure 2 (2 times)

Sonic Heroes (1 time)

Shadow the Hedgehog (3 times, no canon bullshit)

Sonic Battle (2 times, non-canon)

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood (2 times)

Sonic Generations (1 time on console, 1 time on handheld)

And to top it all off, Shadow didn't get his ass handed to him every time like Metal Sonic. That's why I'm not counting Metal Sonic matches. Metal Sonic never wins. No plot armor included.

[Aquaslash]

You're only speculating that the Superhogs spread themselves out across time - there is also evidence that they were all in the same time frame (communication between the different characters - including spectator characters not fighting, how Solaris would turn around when the hogs changed out, no indication of time travel via flashy light show, etc) and even in this scenario, Solaris was still defeated in the past, present and future (future: by Blaze's sacrifice, present: by Superhogs, past: by Elise blowing out candle). I'm not really taking a position on this, I'm just pointing out that there is too much uncertainty to declare your speculation canon.

Except each of the hedgehogs expressly said that they were fighting in a certain time period. The entire plan was to hit him in all time periods at once. Shadow was in the past, Sonic the present, and Silver the future.

Also Blaze's sacrifice only took out Iblis. Mephiles was still around to scheme.

If that was truly the case, he would have been able to smash through a door without a problem, electrified or otherwise.

Um...no? Running into a steel object at that speed would, and should by all means shatter his body into a million pieces. An electric wall would vaporize said pieces.

Sheesh, all this Sonic Heroes Metal Sonic bullshit is making me sick. It was and still is universally panned in just about every way. Is that really Metal Sonic fans' biggest argument? To talk about a crappy final boss in a game they probably hate? I think that's a pathetic way to defend any character by any means.

What the hell does that have to do with...well anything? Canon events are canon events, no matter what you think of the game.

Here is a list of all the times Sonic fought Shadow:

Sonic Adventure 2 (2 times)

Sonic Heroes (1 time)

Shadow the Hedgehog (3 times, no canon bullshit)

Sonic Battle (2 times, non-canon)

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood (2 times)

Sonic Generations (1 time on console, 1 time on handheld)

And to top it all off, Shadow didn't get his ass handed to him every time like Metal Sonic. That's why I'm not counting Metal Sonic matches. Metal Sonic never wins. No plot armor included.

Except he totally did, and the only time he didn't was in his own game where HE had the plot armor. There's also the chance that he didn't fight those battles anyway, since the path he took in that game is up for debate.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Aquaslash

[UltDevilDoom]

Except each of the hedgehogs expressly said that they were fighting in a certain time period. The entire plan was to hit him in all time periods at once. Shadow was in the past, Sonic the present, and Silver the future.

Also Blaze's sacrifice only took out Iblis. Mephiles was still around to scheme.

Um...no? Running into a steel object at that speed would, and should by all means shatter his body into a million pieces. An electric wall would vaporize said pieces.

What the hell does that have to do with...well anything? Canon events are canon events, no matter what you think of the game.

Except he totally did, and the only time he didn't was in his own game where HE had the plot armor. There's also the chance that he didn't fight those battles anyway, since the path he took in that game is up for debate.

First off, if you hate something like Sonic Heroes, you wouldn't talk about the game's canon events with a positive attitude. Sure, there are parts of games you might like, but Sonic Heroes disappointed almost everyone. If you want to talk about how cool something is, at least like something about it beyond a crappy final boss. Once again, the argument I'm hearing the Metal Sonic fans saying is from a game they probably hated when it came out. "Yeah, everything about this game sucks except the final boss fight, and only because I like the character." Come up with something better that holds some ground. They may be canon events, but that doesn't mean they don't suck ass.

As for the "steel door," I recommend you study harder in Physics 101. Momentum is a powerful force.

FInally, "plot armor," means a lot less than you think. Metal Sonic loses because Sonic is better than him. No amount of copying abilities can change that.

[Aquaslash]

First off, if you hate something like Sonic Heroes, you wouldn't talk about the game's canon events with a positive attitude. Sure, there are parts of games you might like, but Sonic Heroes disappointed almost everyone. If you want to talk about how cool something is, at least like something about it beyond a crappy final boss. Once again, the argument I'm hearing the Metal Sonic fans saying is from a game they probably hated when it came out. "Yeah, everything about this game sucks except the final boss fight, and only because I like the character." Come up with something better that holds some ground. They may be canon events, but that doesn't mean they don't suck ass.

What in the blue hell does that have to do with anything? Who the hell cares about anyone's personal opinion of a game in a discussion about character stats and canon events?

As for the "steel door," I recommend you study harder in Physics 101. Momentum is a powerful force.

I tell you what, go run into a thick steel wall at over 500MPH and let me know how that turns out for you, ok?

FInally, "plot armor," means a lot less than you think. Metal Sonic loses because Sonic is better than him. No amount of copying abilities can change that.

He loses entirely because Sonic is the main character of the game, and the player is always in control of him. The story needs for him to lose in order to progress. If the story were centered around Metal Sonic, then he would start winning. In fact, Sonic Rivals 2 is a good example of that.

[UltDevilDoom]

You know what? Fuck this. I'm tired of arguing. I'm starting to feel like goddamn Total Shadow.

If you like Metal Sonic, fine. I like Shadow, and that's fine too. To each is own. I'm ending this shitty cycle for me right now.

[Abominal SnowTaz]

You know what? Fuck this. I'm tired of arguing. I'm starting to feel like goddamn Total Shadow.

If you like Metal Sonic, fine. I like Shadow, and that's fine too. To each is own. I'm ending this shitty cycle for me right now.

Whoa Brohym, Chill out, take five, whoosah. No one's trying to argue but the way you keep expressing your opinion about Shadow is getting more and more edgy. You like Shadow better. Ok. So do I but you don't see me getting hostile about it.

[Aquaslash]

If you like Metal Sonic, fine. I like Shadow, and that's fine too. To each is own. I'm ending this shitty cycle for me right now.

I missed the part where I had to like a character to explain why he has the upper hand in a theoretical fight

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If you like Metal Sonic, fine. I like Shadow, and that's fine too. To each is own. I'm ending this shitty cycle for me right now.

A little fyi: Many of us here happen to be Shadow fans.

As for Metal Sonic, I like him too. But I find Metal Sonic to be incredibly overrated as a character because he has made so little appearances, done very little in the whole series, and yet he's treated like one of the series best characters. I happen to find Shadow to be the better character because he's done far more in a short time while Metal Sonic has been around for 2 decades and hasn't done anywhere near as much.

That does NOT mean that I would treat Shadow as the one who would always win. I may not like Metal as much as Shadow, but just because I favor Shadow doesn't mean I think he would have the upper hand. Give credit where it's actually due, not just because you like it more.

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

Okay, I admit I overreacted and got a little hostile. It was midnight, I couldn't sleep, and I was in a bad mood. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

Edited June 14, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[---]

Okay, I admit I overreacted and got a little hostile. It was midnight, I couldn't sleep, and I was in a bad mood. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry.

This is the tagline for any thread involving Shadow or Sonic Adventure 3, ever.

A little fyi: Many of us here happen to be Shadow fans.

As for Metal Sonic, I like him too. But I find Metal Sonic to be incredibly overrated as a character because he has made so little appearances, done very little in the whole series, and yet he's treated like one of the series best characters. I happen to find Shadow to be the better character because he's done far more in a short time while Metal Sonic has been around for 2 decades and hasn't done anywhere near as much.

That does NOT mean that I would treat Shadow as the one who would always win. I may not like Metal as much as Shadow, but just because I favor Shadow doesn't mean I think he would have the upper hand. Give credit where it's actually due, not just because you like it more.

I think Metal Sonic is so well recieved because he was handled in a good way, he didn't practically take over the series like Shadow, and he will never switch to the good side. For what he is, a secondary antagonist, he does his job well, not only that but he's not completely broken like some other characters in the series in terms of powers and abilities. Also his design is beast.

I hope we can play as him in a 3D title one of these days D:

Edited June 14, 2012 by SuperJXJ

[Diogenes]

I think Metal Sonic is so well recieved because he was handled in a good way

But he really wasn't. He wasn't handled well, he just wasn't handled utterly horribly, and more due to his incredibly few significant appearances than good/acceptable writing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think Metal Sonic is so well recieved because he was handled in a good way, he didn't practically take over the series like Shadow, and he will never switch to the good side. For what he is, a secondary antagonist, he does his job well, not only that but he's not completely broken like some other characters in the series in terms of powers and abilities. Also his design is beast.

Except no, that's not actually it. Generally speaking, Metal is well received for the same reason Amy is well received: he's a Classic character. And a lot of fans run off the fallacy that classic = better when that isn't the case, and hardly any mention of his character like you failed to do when talking about him. In fact, I dare say that many people say what you said out of sheer spite of Shadow; basically that Metal Sonic is a better character because he's not Shadow and the things he didn't do or doesn't do are what makes him even better. Logic much?

He wasn't "handled" in a good way or any way, he was flat out neglected until they decided to throw him a bone in Heroes, and to add salt to this they hardly did any decent characterization for him compared to all the other ones. And that's saying a lot. And if he did take over more of the series I wouldn't find it too far fetched that he'd still be praised for it regardless.

He wasn't treated as a secondary antagonist either because he did very little even compared to spin-off villains and was nothing more than a tool than an actual character. Heroes barely managed to give him a character, but it was as shallow as the rest of the game's writing. Not very much a "job" when you haven't done it very much in almost 2 decades, is it?

And as for not being broken? Did you fucking miss where it was said SEVERAL times in this topic that he can copy powers, like Shadow's Chaos Control or Silver's Telekinesis or even the power of Chaos as mentioned in Heroes? Metal Sonic is plenty broken as hell if not THE most broken character in the series and yet you're denying it like it was never there.

Edited June 14, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Amy's well received? I was under the impression everyone hated her bitchiness and wanted her dead?

In any case, Metal has a cult following similar to the likes of Big, his popularity and awesomeness is more perceived than actual; in reality, he hasn't really done much to deserve such a following, he's nothing more than a generic mook who looks like Sonic with the only resemblance of character he had was in Heroes, and was nothing more than the generic "Robots take over the world". Outside of that, he's just kind of.....there.

Metal's problem is that nobody can think of anything to do with him outside of just sticking him as a throwaway boss fight; he's completely neglected despite being hailed as one of Eggman's top machines; it speaks volumes when Orbot & Cubot have more character and personality despite being around for only two games than Metal's had in his entire 19 year service with the series.

I'm not saying Metal's a bad character, it's just that he's never really given much of a character to begin with, and his appearances are scarce. It amazes me how a character with so little has such a following, it makes me wonder if people only like the characters when they never appear at all.

[Diogenes]

Amy's well received? I was under the impression everyone hated her bitchiness and wanted her dead?

I think she gets more respect than some of the new characters, but she is definitely the lowest on the classic character totem pole.

[Kuzu]

I think she gets more respect than some of the new characters, but she is definitely the lowest on the classic character totem pole.

Pretty much, that character derailment hit her hard.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Personally, I think Shadow and Metal Sonic are on opposite ends of the characterisation range, in that Shadow needs more characterisation in order to have a proper role in the series, and Metal Sonic needs less.

Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) ended with Shadow the Hedgehog (the guy) finding out WHO I AM...but I still have no idea who that is (and if someone could explain it for me, I would appreciate it). With his character arc completed, what role does he have in the series?

Metal Sonic, on the other hand, was introduced as a robot able to fight Sonic on equal terms. That lends itself to great boss fights, and should really be the sole purpose and function of the character. I actually DO want Metal to be just another hedgehog-robot like Silver Sonic and Mecha Sonic. No personality. No character development. Just a penultimate boss fight using speed and spin-attack based attacks combined with electric and flashy blasts. Giving him a maniacal personality in Heroes was a mistake, in my opinion. His role in the game should've been that of a malfunctioning robot too focused on upgrading itself in order to complete its mission to comprehend that it was attacking its own master in the process. No talking. No taunting. Just Metal Sonic as the penultimate boss in his normal form and then BIG SURPRISE! he malfunctions and turns into a robot monstrosity for the final boss (so you can keep your Super Sonic boss fight - although if the final form looked cooler or was Sonic-sized, that'd be awesome thanks).

Ironically, it's Sonic 4 Episode II that puts Metal Sonic in exactly the role I want to see him in.

Unpopular opinion, I know, but that's my 2 cents. Also, I'd really like someone to explain what the point of Shadow is post-Shadow (the game).

[Diogenes]

Metal Sonic, on the other hand, was introduced as a robot able to fight Sonic on equal terms. That lends itself to great boss fights, and should really be the sole purpose and function of the character. I actually DO want Metal to be just another hedgehog-robot like Silver Sonic and Mecha Sonic. No personality. No character development. Just a penultimate boss fight using speed and spin-attack based attacks combined with electric and flashy blasts.

But then why should I give a shit?

[Emmett L. Brown]

But then why should I give a shit?

Was that a rhetorical question? I honestly don't know why you should give a shit. I'm just saying what the shit is that I give.

My, aren't we a pair of poopy-mouths?

[Kuzu]

Was that a rhetorical question? I honestly don't know why you should give a shit. I'm just saying what the shit is that I give.

My, aren't we a pair of poopy-mouths?

He's saying what's the difference between Metal Sonic and a generic Egg Pawn if all he's going to be used for is just another stepping stone for Sonic to crush.

Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) ended with Shadow the Hedgehog (the guy) finding out WHO I AM...but I still have no idea who that is (and if someone could explain it for me, I would appreciate it). With his character arc completed, what role does he have in the series?

Antihero.