Sonic the hedgehog 4 - previews, interviews, and impressions topic

[TheOcelot]

According to the SEGA blog:

On Xbox Live Arcade, Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1 and Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 2 are both on sale — also for 50% off (Episode 1 is reduced to 400 MSP; Episode 2 is reduced to 600 MSP). But you gotta go fast – this sale lasts until September 11th!

[Endy]

Okay now they're just desperate for people to buy the game :/

[Semi-colon e]

According to the SEGA blog:

On Xbox Live Arcade, Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1 and Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 2 are both on sale — also for 50% off (Episode 1 is reduced to 400 MSP; Episode 2 is reduced to 600 MSP). But you gotta go fast – this sale lasts until September 11th!

Those are the sorts of prices that they should have been in the first place. I swear CD 2011 was still cheaper.

[Autosaver]

Okay now they're just desperate for people to buy the game :/

[Blue Blood]

Okay now they're just desperate for people to buy the game :/

[GenesisCodeX]

Sonic 4 may have sucked a bit, but at least it provided us with some great running jokes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv_3EwW5wxI

[TheOcelot]

Desperate? The games are good sellers as it is. But if they can real in more then that's what they're goona do. A shame though. I was hoping E2 would bomb.

Edited September 6, 2012 by NightwingFox

[Blue Blood]

Love, like or hate Sonic 4 we should all hope that it sells well for SEGA's sake (and for our chances of getting more digital Sonic games).

[sonfan1984]

Sonic 4 may have sucked a bit, but at least it provided us with some great running jokes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv_3EwW5wxI

I can't believe I've listened to the whole thing.

[Cyalume]

I can't believe I've listened to the whole thing.

I actually recognize the song from one of [adult swim]'s bumps. (The going to/returning from commercial break videos that play that last around five seconds or so, not the black screens with text on them). It uses music from 1:02-1:14.

They're taking a streamlined approach to everything in order to broaden their audience, and its hurting the core gameplay as a whole. They're not the only ones guilty of this; A LOT of core franchises have been doing it as of late.

(example) Video: Winter Park, Act II

Money makes the world go 'round.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Cyalume

[TheOcelot]

I was just watching the Sonic 4 Ep2 review by Somecallmejohnny on youtube, and I noticed this comment by a youtube user:

"White Park is based off of the scrapped Sonic 2 level, Winter Zone. Brenda Ross, the creator of the scrapped zone did say that Winter Zone had Christmas Tree's and BEHOLD White Park does indeed have Christmas Tree's (Well Act 1 anyway) and indeed it does have a snowy environment."

Sonic Retro says:

The Winter Zone was supposed to be a palette swap of Dust Hill:

"The desert zone was as you see in that image, with cactus and assorted plants. It was designed to have a palette change, which turned the sand into snow, and you’d have a winter scene. We had to be fairly ingenious with such a limited palette. In the winter zone, (that’s what I call it), instead of cactus, I had created Christmas trees, which I thought looked kinda cool."

Sonic 4 seems to have quite a fetish for Sonic 2 levels. We also know there were a lot of cancelled levels like Dust Hill and Wood Zone which never made the final cut in Sonic 2, but I had never heard of this Winter level. If White Park Zone in Ep2 was partly based on Winter Zone, that means that all the zones in Ep2 were at least in part based on previous Sonic 2 levels.

Dear oh dear oh dear.....

Edited September 21, 2012 by NightwingFox

[Milo]

Rising this thread from its grave to avoid further thread derail with the critic's ranking list of Sonic games thread and to continue this discussion tangent with @Sega DogTagz on Episode II:

56 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Yeah, I'm right there with you about this being a possible de-rail. I'll spoiler a response, and if we need to keep going we can take it elsewhere.
 

  Hide contents

 

You made a lot of valid points, but in the vast majority of those points, I feel like you kind of proved mine.

Cherry picking around your argument, you point out that Ep II only has a single "wholly original" stage in White Park. (A well liked and pretty well received stage idea at that). You are completely right in that assessment, as the rest of the stages do indeed borrow trope ideas from the classic games in the series, however from a quality of game standpoint, that is still superior to what we were given in Ep I, which featured no original stage ideas, no original boss ideas and not even a new badnik. If your going to give Ep II a hard time for not branching out on its own or having its own original flavor, how can we give episode I a pass for literally doing nothing new and committing the ultimate unforgivable sin of giving us Green Hill Zone 16.0? How can you punish Ep II more for having an Oil Ocean like stage than you are willing to punish Ep I from literally pulling the stages and badniks and bosses right out from previous titles. Did we really need more checker wrecker balls in our life? If your going to look at levels and call them out for being a "straight rehash" of a Sonic CD boss, then what is stopping me from heel-turning on that statement and pointing out that every boss is an unimaginative rehash in Ep I?

At least Ep II has some new bosses, and one undeniably new stage. I don't see how its fair that you can hold that against that game, without punishing Ep I for it even more.

Moving on, you said it yourself, you don't need a second guy to pull off any of the combos. Lets not bash it like it required you to have a little brother or something. It is still consistent enough with Ep I that a single player can traverse its stages. The only difference is that they expanded on the movepool quite a bit - which is pretty much expected of a sequel. We would have rallied against it if it didn't bring anything new to the table. S2 brought the spindash. A move that changed Sonic forever and is fundamentally OP to the entire premise of Sonic 1. S3 brought increased functionality with Tails. Vastly increasing where Sonic could go and what you could do. Tails being able to fly you across gaps is OP in the sense that this is a platformer. You just removed all the challenge. S4 did more of the same. Ep I introduced the homing attack. OP in the sense that the homing attack was utter blasphemy in the 2D space, as you didn't even need to aim your jumps much to traverse the stage or use badniks as stepping stones. I'll hardly yawn when you call the Rolling Combo OP, as that's not new to this formula of introducing things. It gives you much less control, then lets say the boost, so its not like we haven't seen worse offenders. If you want to talk about breaking flow, there were a heck of a few bubbles chains in Ep I that did pretty much the same thing. Why let those off the hook?

If you make the argument that is breaks the flow too much, then I'll point in the other direction. Sure the input lag for starting a combo move was a buzzkill, but the submarine combo made traversing aquatic areas faster, which hastened the pace and kept the flow. The rolling combo, when used in non platform sections hastened the pace and even bowled over enemies that required multi-hits, which sped up the game and kept momentum. It helped the pace at least as much as it hurt it. Which leads into automation. Sonic Ep I only had two real ways of getting a player from point a to point b. Spring or Homing Chain. We can point and laugh at all the dash panels and what not till our faces turn as blue as Sonic, but its no argument that the combo moves cut down on the reliance on automation that Episode I had. It didn't need a spring to catapult you above a high ledge. Every once in awhile, it held back on the automation and made you do it with Tails. If you want to bash Ep II for having too much automation... I don't see how Ep I escapes that fate either. The second act even cut down on the infamous bubbles chains. If anything, Ep II should score a bit higher in that department.

Then if you want to keep going, you can look at the physics. We've broken this down around these parts time and time again, but Sonic 4 Ep I is an abomination in that department. It doesn't feel or play anything like the classics it wants to emulate. At the very least, Ep II took corrective measures in its coding to bring it closer to that end. Its ho-hum physics corrections are leagues better than the WTF are they thinking we got from Ep I.

To me, it looks like most of the gripes you bring against Ep II could well be turned around and thrown against Ep I, which oftentimes seems to be an even worse offender. The music loops, and the flow of the game being exceptions to that.

However, in light of that (and I think its a safe agreement when I state that) Ep II has more diversity, more creativity, more content, more original content, better controls, less automation overall, better graphics and an actual attempt of a real story line over Ep I. With all that going for it, how can I look at a list like this and justify that Ep I ranks some 12 spots higher than Ep II on its own merits? That makes no sense to me. That is utter madness. Irritations over music loops and boss invincibility phases can't make up that kind of difference.

In my most cynical stance, I could say Ep I strong points could be seen as being a more streamlined experience, with tried and true bosses that stick to the formula and does little to offend by not branching out as far. Its safer by all means. But stacked against the litany of stuff that Ep II does better, I can't say I agree with you about it deserving a better score than Ep II or a higher spot on this list.

 

 

I presume that when you say I'm just validating your own points that speak in favor for Episode II; you're speaking under the assumption that I'm saying Episode I is greatly superior to Episode II. I did mention in my previous posts that I don't hold a high opinion of Episode I, maybe you're taking my rebuttal on Episode II being worse than Episode I to mean I think it's "10+ slots better" as you said you wouldn't agree with in your first response. 

Just to set the record straight, I'm not--I think Episode II is worse than Episode I, but its not by miles. I'd only say at best, the game is a sidestep from Episode I in that regard--it fixes some things from Episode I, but also leaves some things unfixed while adding new problems. At worst, as I maintained prior, it gets things wrong even Episode I got right and takes problems Episode I did to higher levels.

Originality: When I am criticizing Episode II for its lack of originality, that's not to say at all I'm excusing Episode I's lack of originality, if anything, if the complete opposite. I pointed out that Episode I's lack of originality was a chief complaint for that game and Episode II was claimed to have more original content than Episode I by the PR team in my previous post; in light of both respects, this is where I am criticizing Episode II; over the aforementioned PR quote, and as a sequel to Episode I. I'm not going to dispute Episode II is wholly unoriginal; I'll give you most of the bosses being new, and there are a fair amount of unseen badniks. But in regards to the game's zones as a whole --in which level themes, badniks, bosses, gimmicks, level design structure, etc. all fall into here-- I argue it does not amount to a significant increase in originality overall. We're only talking one entire zone that wouldn't be said to be an obvious rehash of something that already exists, compared to three/four zones that have some new material in theme but a lot of returning material as well. Ideally, Episode II would had been mostly comprised, if not entirely filled with, original content. The developers could have made four/five entirely fresh new zones, rather than just one.

One thing I think is worth pointing out in this regard is the fakeout-troll boss that happens at the end of Sylvania Castle Zone, where the pillars from Aquatic Ruin show up only to be replaced by the new boss. Why is that even there in the first place? Is it an olive branch of a new boss? Or an admittance on how similar Sylvania Castle is to Aquatic Ruin in its theme, visuals, and level gimmicks to Aquatic Ruin? It could be laughed off as a joke on the developer's part on how much Episode I was taken to task in original content...if the rest of the game, let alone the zone, was mostly original material. With how Sylvania Castle and Episode II as a whole exists, it comes off as the developers breaking their own standpoint.

Co-op moves: First, I'll have to disagree with your claim that people would be against the moves if they didn't bring anything new. That's a sweeping assumption that is far from the case with where I and others take umbrage with the co-op moves. As I mentioned in my previous post, my criticism about the co-op moves being required isn't simply that they exist, it is that you literally cannot progress any further in the game without requiring their use. If the game even supported areas that required co-op that were optional to the main campaign; people would be praising their implementation, let alone not complaining about them. The manner co-op moves are implemented in Episode II is not the case with Sonic 2's spindash or Tails' flying in Sonic 3; trying to equate them with the co-op moves in Episode II is a false equivalence.

The spindash's introduction in Sonic 2 is far from an overwrite to the existing gameplay--if anything, it's an extension of rolling. You are literally are just "charging" up the existing roll for immediate faster speed; with the tradeoffs that require you stop in order to build it up, and can only be done on flat ground. Moreover, there is never any point in Sonic 2 where the player is suddenly required to spindash at any point in order to proceed. This also applies with Tails' flying in Sonic 3, while there are routes that Tails can access only through flying, these routes aren't necessary for Tails to progress through the level at all--the "standard" / "Sonic" path is still free for the player to choose. And despite having said flying mechanic, this doesn't suddenly mean the standard jump/roll is no longer the core of the gameplay; Tails' routes, let alone the game as a whole, isn't entirely built around his flying abilities at all.

An example that could be faulted with Episode II's co-op, in which a move is introduced that does overwrite the gameplay? The homing attack in Episode I as you mentioned is a good example--and like I mentioned with the originality earlier, I and many other people didn't and are not cutting Episode I any slack in that either. The implementation of the game --from being the only reliable way to kill enemies/gain speed to its HA bridges-- was one of the biggest complaints of that game. It too also had instances in which the game's designers were forcing the player to use it, with a few HA bridges over hazards / bottomless pits; I'm not a fan of that either, far from it. So pointing to their existence in those games as a defense to Episode II's co-op moves...doesn't really make for a compelling argument in the co-op move's favor.

And in light of everything I've pointed out so far about the spindash, Tails' flying, and the homing attack, I'll have to disagree that no, the Rolling Combo is a problematic new addition to the formula that isn't like the aforementioned examples. Just like I mentioned with comparing the co-op moves to the homing attack, comparing it to the boost in its defense isn't a point in its favor, as the boost also gets a large amount a flak--moreover, not even the boost has some of the protections the Rolling Combo has. The boost doesn't protect you from spikes, like the Rolling Combo does. The boost also has a gauge tied to it, so when it runs out, you can't use it until you replenish. The Rolling Combo can be used at anytime, anywhere. The button that activates the boost also needs to be continually pressed/held down by the player in order to keep going; the Rolling Combo only needs so much as a tap in order to start and stop it. And it goes without saying that the spindash, Tails' flying, and even the homing attack provide nowhere near as much utilities as the boost does.

Flow: My complaint with the co-op moves breaking flow goes hand in hand with my critique about being used to progress. I'm referring to the context of the game telling the player to stop what they're doing, and play in a specific manner that isn't at all how they would otherwise normally play the game in order to proceed. The player having to continue by not playing the game on their own whims, in order to start playing the game as the game is telling them to do (and the game is not-figuratively telling you to do so, with the addition of the floating tutorial signs). This is what I'm referring to in regards to gameplay flow being disrupted. New moves that aren't part of the existing moveset, now being demanded for the sake of their use (putting an emphasis on "new moves" and "existing moveset" because this is where I will acknowledge that in Sonic 3, there are instances where the spindash is required to break walls in certain routes--but since Sonic 2 already introduced the move without demanding it, and these areas are few and far in between).

The giant walls that require the flying, the spike corridors that require swimming, the unbreakable walls that require the rolling combo to be busted through in order to be initiated; in which there is no other way to continue, and what you have to do is being (figuratively) spelled-out for you to do. When you're doing anything else that isn't the game telling you to do something, and you have to come to a halt and initiate the co-op moves in order to continue--that is what I'm referring to in breaking flow. Using these moves whenever the player wants to to helping them keep their desired pace (the co-op animations aside)? That can contribute to flow. Using these moves when the game tells you to? That grinds flows to a halt.

Automation and physics: Again, like with homing attack and originality--complained about them in Episode I, automation was something I singled out in my previous post in regards to complaints Episode I got hit with. If it was done badly there, that doesn't make their inclusion in Episode II inclusion any better. But with that said, I don't know why Episode II combo moves should suddenly make the existence of excessive automation a moot issue in Episode II. If anything, that just begs the question of why are they there to begin with if you already have faster gameplay tools at your disposal (even given that some, like the Rolling Combo I mentioned, have their own flaws in that department IMO). Hardly anybody was asking for dash panels, spring corridors, and HA chains (which, while not as bad as Episode I, were still there) to come back from Episode I for Episode II. So why are they all back?

And that's only touching on the dash panels, springs, and HA bubbles. In my previous post, I didn't include scripting segments, and this is also a problem with both episodes, but is especially significant with Episode II. There are various slopes throughout the game where Sonic can't roll downhill and gain momentum properly, while being able to do so fine in other areas (one area that comes off the top of my head is the first slope of Sylvania Castle Act 1 vs. the second slope in the same act; he can't roll properly on the first, but can do it fine on the second). It's almost as if the game has scripts for every platform in the game, rather than emulating actual gravity and letting the physics do the rest.

Which brings me to a final point I decided to avoid at first, but will cover here since you addressed it: the physics. I do not agree that its ho-hum physics are "leagues better" than Episode I, because the physics in Episode II aren't actually different from Episode I, not in any meaningful sense. Rolling is still not as good as the classics and that's if the game allows it to work, because it can vary from giving decent ground to being absolutely useless like in Episode I. Spindashing is actually made worse, as it's less powerful than Episode I, and bouncing hasn't been addressed at all. New problems have also been added with the addition of speed caps, with restrict Sonic from moving past a specific speed when running or rolling. They can be credited towards add some inertia and removing uncurling, which are glaring mistakes I'm happy are fixed, but aren't enough. And this isn't even factoring the claims the PR made about Episode II having an "all new physics" engine...which it clearly wasn't. If it wasn't enough that Super Sonic's physics in the game, who plays exactly as he does in Episode I--dropping like a rock when going off a slope and all; Sonic Retro members (late tech member Polygon Jim in particular) looked into the game's code and reported the engine to be same engine base from Episode I.

Closing: All of the above is falling back to what I previously said near the end of my initial response, but repeating here for added affect--I'm not saying that there hasn't been any improvements to Episode I. I already conceded the point about the graphics earlier, and I've acknowledged other elements like lowered HA chains. But in light of everything I criticized about Episode I, and I argue was not improved or done worse in Episode II; I don't agree that it is better than Episode I at the end of the day. But I will add for clarity that this is not to say it's significantly better by any stretch; while I think Episode I may overall be the better game, it's only by a small margin.

/largewalloftext

[Sega DogTagz]

19 hours ago, Gabe said:

, maybe you're taking my rebuttal on Episode II being worse than Episode I to mean I think it's "10+ slots better" as you said you wouldn't agree with in your first response. 

Well thanks for clearing that up. What your shooting for makes 100% more sense now. Before the math just didn't add up

lol

 

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Originality: When I am criticizing Episode II for its lack of originality, that's not to say at all I'm excusing Episode I's lack of originality, if anything, if the complete opposite. I pointed out that Episode I's lack of originality was a chief complaint for that game and Episode II was claimed to have more original content than Episode I by the PR team in my previous post; in light of both respects, this is where I am criticizing Episode II; over the aforementioned PR quote, and as a sequel to Episode I. I'm not going to dispute Episode II is wholly unoriginal; I'll give you most of the bosses being new, and there are a fair amount of unseen badniks. But in regards to the game's zones as a whole --in which level themes, badniks, bosses, gimmicks, level design structure, etc. all fall into here-- I argue it does not amount to a significant increase in originality overall. We're only talking one entire zone that wouldn't be said to be an obvious rehash of something that already exists, compared to three/four zones that have some new material in theme but a lot of returning material as well. Ideally, Episode II would had been mostly comprised, if not entirely filled with, original content. The developers could have made four/five entirely fresh new zones, rather than just one.

Ideally both Episode I and II would have been great. We don't need to play that game.

I'm not about to get on my pedestal and proclaim that Ep II was some bastion of originality, because obviously that is not the case. However, we are both on the same page in that we understand that originality was an issue brought forth in the feedback between Episodes I and II and that Ep II at least makes an attempt at answering those calls. Sure, we got a handful of trope rehashes, but there was still a good deal of new stuff in there. In the vein that some originality is better than no originality, I think its safe to say that Ep II is an upgrade over the full on retread of Ep I. Would we have liked to see even more originality? Of course. But Ep II undoubtedly has to weigh in favorably over its predecessor in that regard.

 

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One thing I think is worth pointing out in this regard is the fakeout-troll boss that happens at the end of Sylvania Castle Zone, where the pillars from Aquatic Ruin show up only to be replaced by the new boss. Why is that even there in the first place? Is it an olive branch of a new boss? Or an admittance on how similar Sylvania Castle is to Aquatic Ruin in its theme, visuals, and level gimmicks to Aquatic Ruin? It could be laughed off as a joke on the developer's part on how much Episode I was taken to task in original content...if the rest of the game, let alone the zone, was mostly original material. With how Sylvania Castle and Episode II as a whole exists, it comes off as the developers breaking their own standpoint.

I always thought that as a joke about the Dev's listening in on fan feedback and a bit of a cheeky troll joke to people who wanted to see more originality out of the first title. Kinda lull'd you into a moor with the two totems only to smash away expectations. Kind of a forth wall moment of out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new.

 

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Co-op moves: First, I'll have to disagree with your claim that people would be against the moves if they didn't bring anything new. That's a sweeping assumption that is far from the case with where I and others take umbrage with the co-op moves. As I mentioned in my previous post, my criticism about the co-op moves being required isn't simply that they exist, it is that you literally cannot progress any further in the game without requiring their use. If the game even supported areas that required co-op that were optional to the main campaign; people would be praising their implementation, let alone not complaining about them. The manner co-op moves are implemented in Episode II is not the case with Sonic 2's spindash or Tails' flying in Sonic 3; trying to equate them with the co-op moves in Episode II is a false equivalence.

The spindash's introduction in Sonic 2 is far from an overwrite to the existing gameplay--if anything, it's an extension of rolling. You are literally are just "charging" up the existing roll for immediate faster speed; with the tradeoffs that require you stop in order to build it up, and can only be done on flat ground. Moreover, there is never any point in Sonic 2 where the player is suddenly required to spindash at any point in order to proceed. This also applies with Tails' flying in Sonic 3, while there are routes that Tails can access only through flying, these routes aren't necessary for Tails to progress through the level at all--the "standard" / "Sonic" path is still free for the player to choose. And despite having said flying mechanic, this doesn't suddenly mean the standard jump/roll is no longer the core of the gameplay; Tails' routes, let alone the game as a whole, isn't entirely built around his flying abilities at all.

An example that could be faulted with Episode II's co-op, in which a move is introduced that does overwrite the gameplay? The homing attack in Episode I as you mentioned is a good example--and like I mentioned with the originality earlier, I and many other people didn't and are not cutting Episode I any slack in that either. The implementation of the game --from being the only reliable way to kill enemies/gain speed to its HA bridges-- was one of the biggest complaints of that game. It too also had instances in which the game's designers were forcing the player to use it, with a few HA bridges over hazards / bottomless pits; I'm not a fan of that either, far from it. So pointing to their existence in those games as a defense to Episode II's co-op moves...doesn't really make for a compelling argument in the co-op move's favor.

And in light of everything I've pointed out so far about the spindash, Tails' flying, and the homing attack, I'll have to disagree that no, the Rolling Combo is a problematic new addition to the formula that isn't like the aforementioned examples. Just like I mentioned with comparing the co-op moves to the homing attack, comparing it to the boost in its defense isn't a point in its favor, as the boost also gets a large amount a flak--moreover, not even the boost has some of the protections the Rolling Combo has. The boost doesn't protect you from spikes, like the Rolling Combo does. The boost also has a gauge tied to it, so when it runs out, you can't use it until you replenish. The Rolling Combo can be used at anytime, anywhere. The button that activates the boost also needs to be continually pressed/held down by the player in order to keep going; the Rolling Combo only needs so much as a tap in order to start and stop it. And it goes without saying that the spindash, Tails' flying, and even the homing attack provide nowhere near as much utilities as the boost does.

Flow: My complaint with the co-op moves breaking flow goes hand in hand with my critique about being used to progress. I'm referring to the context of the game telling the player to stop what they're doing, and play in a specific manner that isn't at all how they would otherwise normally play the game in order to proceed. The player having to continue by not playing the game on their own whims, in order to start playing the game as the game is telling them to do (and the game is not-figuratively telling you to do so, with the addition of the floating tutorial signs). This is what I'm referring to in regards to gameplay flow being disrupted. New moves that aren't part of the existing moveset, now being demanded for the sake of their use (putting an emphasis on "new moves" and "existing moveset" because this is where I will acknowledge that in Sonic 3, there are instances where the spindash is required to break walls in certain routes--but since Sonic 2 already introduced the move without demanding it, and these areas are few and far in between).

The giant walls that require the flying, the spike corridors that require swimming, the unbreakable walls that require the rolling combo to be busted through in order to be initiated; in which there is no other way to continue, and what you have to do is being (figuratively) spelled-out for you to do. When you're doing anything else that isn't the game telling you to do something, and you have to come to a halt and initiate the co-op moves in order to continue--that is what I'm referring to in breaking flow. Using these moves whenever the player wants to to helping them keep their desired pace (the co-op animations aside)? That can contribute to flow. Using these moves when the game tells you to? That grinds flows to a halt.

See, I don't feel like that's entirely fair. If your going to call out the game for for telling you how to play it, with sections designed to be traversed with specific moves -- then you are  essentially punishing dev's from thinking outside the box and establishing new set pieces to utilize the expanded move-sets.

Take White Park as a great example. There are sections of the stage that are buried in snow and can only be traversed using the combo spindash. In some parts, it is the only way in which you can advance. Its a far departure from anything you would normally do in the game, and it is mandating the way you attack this obstacle by limiting your options down to 1, however I don't feel we should be punishing developers for maximizing the use of new abilities in creative ways. Under your example, you'd miss out on a neat new spin on a platforming section that the series hasn't really seen before. Had they have catered exclusively to the unlimited whims of the player, we would have only seen flat open sections where it may have been a good idea to combo roll as opposed to being introduced to it as a weapon, as a platforming tool and as a speedrunning option. 

I'm not willing to slap the developers on the wrist every time I come to an trial that demands that I use a certain move. If that obstacle is creative in its implementation and builds upon what I've already been asked to do with a move, then more power to it. The air lifts in Sky Fortress are another example. Sure, the game is essentially telling you that the only way through this maze is to use the copter combo - but at the same time its offering you a short spurt of creativity and action. Why should we not cherish that?

Getting upset with devs asking you to defeat minor obstacles with a specific tools out of the set you are given is not some trademarked sin. You wouldn't get mad at Unleashed for demanding that you slide under a gap any more than you would complain about not being able to use a hammer to screw in a screw.

 

 

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Automation and physics: Again, like with homing attack and originality--complained about them in Episode I, automation was something I singled out in my previous post in regards to complaints Episode I got hit with. If it was done badly there, that doesn't make their inclusion in Episode II inclusion any better. But with that said, I don't know why Episode II combo moves should suddenly make the existence of excessive automation a moot issue in Episode II. If anything, that just begs the question of why are they there to begin with if you already have faster gameplay tools at your disposal (even given that some, like the Rolling Combo I mentioned, have their own flaws in that department IMO). Hardly anybody was asking for dash panels, spring corridors, and HA chains (which, while not as bad as Episode I, were still there) to come back from Episode I for Episode II. So why are they all back?

Automation is certainly still a problem in episode II. I'd just argue that thanks to the increases in locomotion available to Sonic in Ep II, we see far less in the way of automation due to the stages being designed around the new move-sets a bit more. Turn all of the copter and submarine combo paths into spring trails and bubbles chains, and Ep II starts to look a heck of a lot more like Ep I. Without the over-reliance on those two traverse options then the bubbles chains and spring gaps in Ep II become much less obtrusive, as they are not shoved in your face at nearly the same rate as they are in Ep I.

Automation, like originality before it, is still a problem, but there was an effort made to deal with that backlash. We don't see the crippling overbearing presence that we had in Ep I.

 

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And that's only touching on the dash panels, springs, and HA bubbles. In my previous post, I didn't include scripting segments, and this is also a problem with both episodes, but is especially significant with Episode II. There are various slopes throughout the game where Sonic can't roll downhill and gain momentum properly, while being able to do so fine in other areas (one area that comes off the top of my head is the first slope of Sylvania Castle Act 1 vs. the second slope in the same act; he can't roll properly on the first, but can do it fine on the second). It's almost as if the game has scripts for every platform in the game, rather than emulating actual gravity and letting the physics do the rest.

Which brings me to a final point I decided to avoid at first, but will cover here since you addressed it: the physics. I do not agree that its ho-hum physics are "leagues better" than Episode I, because the physics in Episode II aren't actually different from Episode I, not in any meaningful sense. Rolling is still not as good as the classics and that's if the game allows it to work, because it can vary from giving decent ground to being absolutely useless like in Episode I. Spindashing is actually made worse, as it's less powerful than Episode I, and bouncing hasn't been addressed at all. New problems have also been added with the addition of speed caps, with restrict Sonic from moving past a specific speed when running or rolling. They can be credited towards add some inertia and removing uncurling, which are glaring mistakes I'm happy are fixed, but aren't enough. And this isn't even factoring the claims the PR made about Episode II having an "all new physics" engine...which it clearly wasn't. If it wasn't enough that Super Sonic's physics in the game, who plays exactly as he does in Episode I--dropping like a rock when going off a slope and all; Sonic Retro members (late tech member Polygon Jim in particular) looked into the game's code and reported the engine to be same engine base from Episode I.

Both games due work off the same base, but the tweaks made between the two do make a difference. Perhaps this may end up being more of a personal feel issue more than the others, but for me when I charge up a spindash on one of the floating platforms during the Egg Checkerball fight, blast off and fail to even make it to the other side of the screen... that's a serious problem.

Sonic 4 Ep I has no momentum to it once Sonic rolls off a ledge. If you hold forward, it tries its best to emulate momentum, but if you let go, you drop straight down. There are places in the casino stage where you can curl up into a ball, drop into a halfpipe and somehow manage to loose momentum. That is a travesty in all things 2D Sonic.

Ep II may have been little more than a spitshine to that engine, but at least they fixed the inattention to momentum. That's kind of a big deal when the name of the game is momentum based physics.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

See, I don't feel like that's entirely fair. If your going to call out the game for punishing you for telling you how to play it, with sections designed to be traversed with specific moves -- then you are  essentially punishing dev's from thinking outside the box and establishing new set pieces to utilize the expanded move-sets.

Again, I'm not really sure you're understanding my criticisms with the co-op implementation. I am not railing about the game requiring the use of co-op moves in principle, nor am I against developers using them as a means to be creative with the levels. I'm criticizing their implementation, which is a different argument.

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Take White Park as a great example. There are sections of the stage that are buried in snow and can only be traversed using the combo spindash. In some parts, it is the only way in which you can advance. Its a far departure from anything you would normally do in the game, and it is mandating the way you attack this obstacle by limiting your options down to 1, however I don't feel we should be punishing developers for maximizing the use of new abilities in creative ways. Under your example, you'd miss out on a neat new spin on a platforming section that the series hasn't really seen before. Had they have catered exclusively to the unlimited whims of the player, we would have only seen flat open sections where it may have been a good idea to combo roll as opposed to being introduced to it as a weapon, as a platforming tool and as a speedrunning option. 

That's not inherently true. Co-op mechanics are only one out of many others factors that can be taken into consideration with the level design/structure; their implementation should not dictate how the rest of the level is designed. You can have a co-op routes with flat open sections, or no co-op routes with sections that have many things going on.

And under my example, yes, a player can miss out on a neat new spin on a platforming section the series hasn't really seen before--but that's if the player chooses to skip it or not. This is what I've been saying in regards to giving the player options--maybe they want to see what this new spin is, maybe they want to see what else the level offers; either option they choose would be fine. Moreover, it's not a punishment on the designers for trying to be creative if they don't choose it, because if the player does miss out on it the first time around, that doesn't mean they won't go back to it--a player may end up revisiting the level and actually giving the co-op path a go next time around. In addition to options, this also gives the level replay value--reasons for a player to return to a level; so they can go back and play through the level in ways they didn't do before. In both cases, I feel this would be lost by making these sequences required by the player in order to continue.

This isn't even getting to whether such "neat new spins" that would require co-op moves would even be considered fun by most players in the first place. Requiring their use in order to proceed in the level is a risky venture, which can either pay off as something most players can find enjoyment in, or backfire as a scrappy mechanic that most players can despise the thought having to deal with. depending on how they are designed. That's not to say the snowball segments are inherently bad by themselves (IMO, they're...ok, not amazing, but not terrible), but it is worth something to keep in mind if you're going to the extent of requiring players to use such mechanics in order to continue through the level. 

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I'm not willing to slap the developers on the wrist every time I come to an trial that demands that I use a certain move. If that obstacle is creative in its implementation and builds upon what I've already been asked to do with a move, then more power to it. The air lifts in Sky Fortress are another example. Sure, the game is essentially telling you that the only way through this maze is to use the copter combo - but at the same time its offering you a short spurt of creativity and action. Why should we not cherish that?

Getting upset with devs asking you to defeat minor obstacles with a specific tools out of the set you are given is not some trademarked sin. You wouldn't get mad at Unleashed for demanding that you slide under a gap any more than you would complain about not being able to use a hammer to screw in a screw.

I guess this is where I'll have to heavily disagree with you on this stance, though not on the basis of opinions. If this was a neutral space, or a different IP where developers did design games that required specific tools to surpass obstacles, whether I agree or disagree with you would fall down more towards personal opinion. But in the context of (classic) Sonic gameplay that Sonic 4 is supposed to fit into, I would say that yes, developers asking you to defeat minor obstacles with specific tools would be a problem; because for the most part, none of the classic games ever demand the use of new abilities introduced to each game.

As I mentioned prior, neither the spindash in Sonic 2, or Tails' flying in Sonic 3&K were presented in a situation where a player cannot proceed without using using one of them. This also applies with game mechanics that aren't part of the moveset, like Sonic 3 & Knuckles' elemental shields. Even the shields in areas where it's impossible to lose your shield, in instances where they could had set up a hazard that can only be crossed with a specific shield, the game never demands a shield once throughout the entire game.

I did say "for the most part" for a reason though, as one example in the classic games that does require the use of new abilities is Knuckles' with his character-exclusive routes, namely with certain areas where Knuckles is obviously required to climb up a wall in order to keep moving forward. This shares the same problem I have with Episode II's co-op moves in that they are mandatory in places; but the majority of Knuckles' climbing does not involve these sequences, and the majority of Knuckles' gameplay is spent within the "main" routes Sonic and/or Tails have access to rather than his alternate routes, so I'm significantly not as bothered with their implementation in that game in comparison.

All of these are deliberate design decisions, and it's clear they had their reasons for doing so. The developers wanted each mechanic to be utilized by the player as toys that were additional to the core gameplay, and not as mandatory tools the players needed to rely on in order to progress throughout the game. The only exception to the rule is Knuckles' portions of required climbing, and even then, it is relatively restricted in its use--Knuckles players are only told by the game to use them in a few short segments within the entire level playthrough.

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As for your rebuttals on originality, automation, and physics, I think at the end of the day, I feel the crux of our arguments boil downs to personal preference on whether the changes are meaningful or not in the long run. I understand your argument that the changes they've done to them in Episode II, they're significant enough for you to consider Episode II superior over Episode I; which I'm absolutely fine with. Personally, I still feel the developers could have done more in those departments, but I'm not one to change your opinion, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on this stance. I know this may feel like a cop-out as a response, but I think continuing on these points would just make the argument go around in circles hehe.