Attitude Adjustment

[Kuzu]

Calm down. You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

Because I'm throwing my point in your face, and you still seem to not understand.

Anyway, I'm saying he's talking too much. A couple of good lines would have sufficed in that particular scene. It comes across as lame, coming out with insult after petty insult, for that length of time.

Then why didn't you just say so in the first place instead of making false claims that Sonic doesn't do anything or get anything done?

Backwards and makes no sense? Why is it hard for you to comprehend that different characters act in different in ways?

That would work if both Sonic & Eggman weren't already similar enough in personality as it is, just no game before Colors ever acknowledged it.

Just because one displays a particular personality trait, doesn't mean that it's suddenly OK for everyone to act the same way.

Except we're only talking about one character in this case.

Besides it's not quite the same brand of goofiness anyway. Eggman gloats because he is that kind of villain, because has a grand plan to inform us all about. He acts a bit goofy at times because he's insane (or at least eccentric). He doesn't enter the scene and dish out insult upon insult for 30 seconds. Sonic is simply throwing out bad lines that make him look dumb more than anything. This wouldn't be such an issue if there was less of it. The odd silly line here and there would be fine. It's the volume that I have the most problem with.

Maybe because that's who Sonic is? He was always meant to be this cocky, self righteous, impatient, asshole and that's especially evident in all of the pre-Sa1 establishment(Yeah, Yeah I know it was America who marketed him that way, but its like not Japan pushed any personality with Sonic at all, before Sa1), it was just after Sa1 they decided to give him a much more generic, shonen like attitude...but ya know, it was boring as shit and nothing about him particularly stood out compared to everyone else, so a change was made to rectify that.

[Kuzu]

That's the problem.

I dislike Colors "atmosphere" because there wasn't any, there was no sense of urgency of feeling needed to push the player along. If I felt like watching a Saturday morning catroon. I turn on the TV an watch WBkids or some shit...hell some WB Kids shows had more urgency than Colors...its for this reason that its pretty forgettable...you have to actually remind people of its existence sometimes..."Oh yeah that game was good...I forgot about that."

Except we're not arguing urgency, we're arguing Sonic's attitude to the situation and how he was approaching it.

SO the little guys...yeah...cool...totally can understand that, but giant robots and death machines? I mean he can say the occasional joke sure...but have 2 minute long speeches before a fight is just...well like you said...I like actually playing the game. When I mean I want him to do more outgame..I talking about like...something like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlx3RYWqqdg

Insert smartass dialogue where you want too.

Whether they're giant robots or not makes little difference, Sonic has still been kicking their ass for years, and its become a sport for him which he treats as a game. If they're actually a threat than yeah, it makes sense that he'd get serious, but they aren't and he treats them as such.

And that video example really makes no sense in the context of what we're talking about.

And again missing the point I already admitted to the scene needing more....but he doesn't have to do pushups and talke about what he wants for lunch before starting a fight with the giant mech Eggman is in. Cause you know the entire world is in danger and Eggman ready to splice him in half, but I guess Sonic did have time for that in Colors...you know with the no atmosphere thing going on...stuff didn't start to kick in until the very end...which is BORING.

No, boring would have been nothing happening in the cutscenes at all. Boring would have been Sonic approaching every situation with no reaction from him at all. THAT's boring, Colors lacks substance, but that's a fault of the plot execution than Sonic's attitude on the whole thing.

At least he was acting like one in Black Knight as compared to Colors. I'm sure you know this already...I shouldn't need to elaborate.

Are you serious with this, you'd rather have Sonic have the most whitebread, and blandest personality over actually having a personality in which you're able to judge him on?

The fact that nothing is going on is the problem. If I feel like watching nothing going on...I'll stare at my ceiling.

Then how is it a problem of Sonic's character rather than a problem with the GAME itself?

Well Sonic isn't a game that you go to an arcade and play. Games like that don't need atmosphere....games nowadays... especially to develop new fans, you need a bit more that just playing the game. That's why games like Uncharted 3 are hailed so highly.

Uncharted is an Action Adventure game, Sonic is a platformer, which by proxy means people prefer to play than watch. I can't believe you'd rather watch 5 minute cutscenes in a platformer instead of playing the game.

And you defending Colors Cutscenes...whhhyyy?

I'm defending the notion that they're somehow "inferior" simply because Sonic isn't being "SRS BUSINESS" about the whole ordeal.

At least Unleashed had something to be remembered for...its intro is incredibly memorable and without the Werehog the whole "Epic" feeling of Unleashed would have still been there and its would still be a very memorable game...apart from it being hard at times

The opening is ONE part of the game, the rest of the game aside from the ending, really doesn't live up to that. And the opening could have easily been a playable level and still be memorable, so please spare me that Unleashed is more memorable based simply on its opening alone.

[azoo]

I love how the arguments some people are making in this topic act as if there's only two Sonic personalities: "arrogant goofball" or "generic shonen hero". The latter of which is very vague and varies upon every game Sonic has been in, in some almost non-resembling such.

I've also grown tired of limiting the series to what it can and can't do on outside standards. It's a westernized platformer franchise, guys! We can't have a Sonic that takes things seriously, that's too shonen anime tropey! And we can't have action-adventure elements to incorporate into the story, that'd take away from the gameplay am I right??

Just because Sega did it before and it came out kind of lackluster doesn't mean they can't ever do it well. Honestly, if they got it right then it'd be better than whatever we're getting now.

Not trying to get personal or anything, but I'm not understanding some of this logic.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Azukara

[Pawn]

Ugh now I have type it all over again. Thank you Chrome.

Then why didn't you just say so in the first place instead of making false claims that Sonic doesn't do anything or get anything done?

[Anarnee]

I love Sonic... pre-colors.

He still seems to be intacked in the Japanese dialouge, but I can only understand so much and the subs on the game are always just the English text, not a translation.

[Nepenthe]

If I may be bothered to chime in on the original point, I don't think Sonic's (or more correctly, the cast's) supposed lack of action in recent games is a symptom of a negative personality change, a "lack of coolness," but rather an issue separate from that. Ignoring subjective leeway between the various writers, Sonic's established personality in the games is a cocky, slightly goofy, impatient superhero abiding by his own personal mantra and morals. I consider this a cool personality, but more importantly that that, that is roughly always Sonic's personality regardless of whether a cut scene has him actually doing anything or not. I agree the comparative lack of active character and plot moments in the middle of the newer games is an overall problem, one I've railed against before, but you're not going to solve it by making Sonic act like Dante. You solve it by writing plots without a rubbish, throwaway second act.

[Voyant]

Blah Bla Blah...

Edited March 5, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Kuzu]

False claims? We are talking about how there is more mouthing off than taking action in these scenes, particularly in the one that you yourself provided. I never said the Sonic does nothing all of the time. In that scene though, he does bugger all.

That's a whole other debate in and of itself, but either way, they are different characters. Like I said before, what works for one may not work for another.

Now you're nitpicking at what I'm saying. The point above still stands.

I don't know how I can be any clearer than I have been. I have calmly explained my opinion again and again and yet you refuse to consider my point of view, determined to continue this debate, distorting my words; trying to drill your opinion in to my head by swearing, through big bold letters and use of the CAPS lock; implying that I am making false claims, that I am hypocritical, and even that I am incapable of comprehending your standpoint.

I don't take the above personally but I have to wonder whether it's worth continuing with this, since we appear to be getting nowhere. This isn't something that I want to debate all day about, especially since we're just moving in circles here.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[azoo]

The point you're trying to make is: Sonic doesn't do anything anymore, or doesn't take enough action...but that point is so vague it can honestly mean anything, what are you referring to specifically? Its a cutscene before a boss that Sonic is warming up for, what do you expect him to do? I'm not saying he didn't talk too much during the majority of the game, I already know and agree with that, but when you say "take action" what do you mean by taking action? He technically took action by fighting the boss, so is it about Sonic that "doesn't take action"

Edited March 5, 2012 by Azukara

[Kuzu]

I dunno... maybe we could have some action shown before the battle? Some lines spat back and forth by Sonic to Eggman and vice versa? Maybe stuff related to the storyline happening, and thus connecting to certain predicaments that happen in the boss battle?

Not trying to be snappy, but really. What's so hard about something like that?

[azoo]

But none of that has anything to do with Sonic's character as the OP seems to be suggesting. That's a plot problem, in which can easily be fixed by actually developing the plot instead of leaving it as shallow as possible. If the plot doesn't give the characters anything to do, its going to suck.

And to be fair, that second point was already made with the pre-Nega Wisp Armor cutscene.

But you're not understanding.

While the second thing I said has been done, it was done near the end; and every other time was Sonic standing around and pulling cheesy one-liners. And before you pull the "but Sonic's always done that", they were always much snappier / less cheesier than those, were used much less, and had some action to back it up.

So yes, it is fault of Sonic's personality, not the story. He just stands around and babbles out quips! And if he doesn't, he's doing silly poses and beginning his every sentence with "dude".

Edited March 5, 2012 by Azukara

[Kuzu]

While the second thing I said has been done, it was done near the end; and every other time was Sonic standing around and pulling cheesy one-liners. And before you pull the "but Sonic's always done that", they were always much snappier / less cheesier than those, were used much less, and had some action to back it up.

And why do you think he had action to back it up? Maybe because the plot actually had stuff going on?

So yes, it is fault of Sonic's personality, not the story. He just stands around and babbles out quips! And if he doesn't, he's doing silly poses and beginning his every sentence with "dude".

So you're basically saying Sonic sucks simply because he likes to boast and talk a lot instead of basically approaching every situation with a SRS BUSINESS attitude?

Yeah, I think I'm about done here, I've already lost my patience once today, don't feel like doing it again.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[DC111]

But none of that has anything to do with Sonic's character as the OP seems to be suggesting. That's a plot problem, in which can easily be fixed by actually developing the plot instead of leaving it as shallow as possible. If the plot doesn't give the characters anything to do, its going to suck.

Good characters are often the foundation of a good plot. Sonic 'not doing anything' or whatever's being claimed here has just as much to do with how he's written as a character as it does the plot. A good plot definitely helps, but if characters were chained by their surrounding circumstances THAT much, we'd have no character variation and they'd act the same.

So you're basically saying Sonic sucks simply because he likes to boast and talk a lot instead of basically approaching every situation with a SRS BUSINESS attitude?

Nobody said that. Sonic doesn't need to be SRS BUSINESS (exaggerating the counterpoint much?) - what many people seem to be trying to say is that there needs to be BALANCE.

Edited March 5, 2012 by DC111

[Kuzu]

Good characters are often the foundation of a good plot. Sonic 'not doing anything' or whatever's being claimed here has just as much to do with how he's written as a character as it does the plot. A good plot definitely helps, but if characters were chained by their surrounding circumstances THAT much, we'd have no character variation and they'd act the same.

But there was little to nothing for Sonic to do in Colors, I mean if you toned down his lines, you basically get Generations, which I know everyone hates(Or at least severely lacking), so I don't know why people are deriding his attitude instead of deriding the narrative and plot for not giving him little to no one to interact with.

I mean is it really Sonic's fault that there's nobody else to talk to?

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[sonfan1984]

So yes, it is fault of Sonic's personality, not the story. He just stands around and babbles out quips! And if he doesn't, he's doing silly poses and beginning his every sentence with "dude".

Way over exaggerating much? I didn't know that saying the word 'dude' two times in the entire game mean he's says it in every sentence.

[Kuzu]

Nobody said that. Sonic doesn't need to be SRS BUSINESS (exaggerating the counterpoint much?) - what many people seem to be trying to say is that there needs to be BALANCE.

Balance of what, exactly? His attitude, ok let's say they did tone it down, but then what's left to latch onto? Toning him actually gives Colors less substance than it already has.

[DC111]

But there was little to nothing for Sonic to do in Colors, I mean if you toned down his lines, you basically get Generations, which I know everyone hates(Or at least severely lacking), so I don't know why people are deriding his attitude instead of deriding the narrative and plot for not giving him little to no one to interact with.

I mean is it really Sonic's fault that there's nobody else to talk to?

There was Tails, and there didn't need to be anybody else. And despite there apparently being 'nobody else to talk to,' Sonic sure as hell talked anyway, so why couldn't some of that dialogue been a little more... I dunno, substantial? I am NOT saying I'd want all the jokes removed, or that I want SRS BSNS Sonic. Just... balance, like I said. The fact that there was only Tails to doesn't excuse anything. I've seen fanfictions that do a better job of similar situations.

[Kuzu]

There was Tails, and there didn't need to be anybody else. And despite there apparently being 'nobody else to talk to,' Sonic sure as hell talked anyway, so why couldn't some of that dialogue been a little more... I dunno, substantial? I am NOT saying I'd want all the jokes removed, or that I want SRS BSNS Sonic. Just... balance, like I said. The fact that there was only Tails to doesn't excuse anything. I've seen fanfictions that do a better job of similar situations.

Because the plot isn't substantial. You're basically asking for something that simply wasn't there, there was no substance to Colors, barely anything for the characters to approach or latch onto happened. Sonic fights robots, and saves Aliens, that's literally the entire plot to Colors in a nutshell, seriously what can you get out of that?

[DC111]

Balance of what, exactly? His attitude, ok let's say they did tone it down, but then what's left to latch onto? Toning him actually gives Colors less substance than it already has.

They don't even have to 'tone down' Sonic's goofy jokes. It's not about subtracting anything from his personality, as much as it is adding what was missing from Colors and Generations. Like the great qualities we've seen in previous games, such as Unleashed, Storybook series, Adventures, and even the Rushes. Sonic's got a little more substance as a character than just making jokes, and I think I've gone on about that enough in recent memory that I don't have to lay it all out again.

[Kuzu]

They don't even have to 'tone down' Sonic's goofy jokes. It's not about subtracting anything from his personality, as much as it is adding what was missing from Colors and Generations. Like the great qualities we've seen in previous games, such as Unleashed, Storybook series, Adventures, and even the Rushes. Sonic's got a little more substance as a character than just making jokes, and I think I've gone on about that enough in recent memory that I don't have to lay it all out again.

But Unleashed, Adventure, and the Storybook games are completely different stories, with completely different events going on. You can't honestly expect Sonic to approach something as simple as Colors or Generations with the same amount of serious as he had in those games you just listed, it just doesn't work. Colors` plot is simple, hence the characters in them will act in a simple manner, its that simple. Its not inconsistent, its not Flanderization, its simplifying the plot so its easier to follow and less complicated.

TL:DR: Simple Plot = Simple Characters, Complex Plot = Complex characters.

The cast's attitude towards any given situation really depends on how complex the plot itself is. If the plot is simple like in Colors, and Generations the characters will act in a simple manner.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[azoo]

And why do you think he had action to back it up? Maybe because the plot actually had stuff going on?

Well, yeah. You answered your own question, and exactly what I was gonna respond with.

But even so, Sonic could've done something else than just ran up to the machinery, stopped, and threw one liners at them. He could've started running up to it, thrashing against it, and umm.. making better jokes? Yeah. Even so, its a fault from both ends: the plot and the characterization.

So you're basically saying Sonic sucks simply because he likes to boast and talk a lot instead of basically approaching every situation with a SRS BUSINESS attitude?

No. I want balance. That's what I want. Sonic feels flat and uninteresting if he isn't phased by nearly anything. The past two games he's responded to everything with "Hey buddy! What's going on!", "Time to scramble that Eggman!", or "*insert joke here*".

Why doesn't Sonic have the ability to show any emotions beyond being snarky or happy-go-lucky? Everything else, if shown, is very vaguely expressed.

I think it's obvious anyways that I'm not a huge fan of Wise-Crackin' Sonic™; but it's not that I hate him pulling these quips. It's the fact that's just about all he does, and because of that I'm not very happy with his current portrayal.

What about his irritability? His laid back traits? His more silent and action-based moments? Secondary morals and principles? His stunts and skills (outside of gameplay)? We don't really see that nowadays, and if we do it's the last thing I mentioned (and in very very low dosages).

Edited March 5, 2012 by Azukara

[Kuzu]

Well, yeah. You answered your own question, and exactly what I was gonna respond with.

But even so, Sonic could've done something else than just ran up to the machinery, stopped, and threw one liners at them. He could've started running up to it, thrashing against it, and umm.. making better jokes? Yeah. Even so, its a fault from both ends: the plot and the characterization.

Like someone else said, you're characters are only as good as your plot. If you're plot is simple and not that hard to follow, the characters involved will be simple.

No. I want balance. That's what I want. Sonic feels flat and uninteresting if he isn't phased by nearly anything. The past two games he's responded to everything with "Hey buddy! What's going on!", "Time to scramble that Eggman!", or "*insert joke here*".

What is supposed to be phased by? the last two games are just Eggman causing trouble, the same thing he's been doing for years now. Why would he act any differently?

Why doesn't Sonic have the ability to show any emotions beyond being snarky or happy-go-lucky? Everything else, if shown, is very vaguely expressed.

Maybe because nothing's happened to warrant such a reaction?

What about his irritability? His laid back traits? His more silent and action-based moments? Secondary morals and principles? His stunts and skills (outside of gameplay)? We don't really see that nowadays, and if we do it's the last thing I mentioned (and in very very low dosages).

Because the Plots are simpler, and as a result the characters are simpler.

Seriously, you expect something complex from the likes of Colors or Generations seriously?

[DC111]

The cast's attitude towards any given situation really depends on how complex the plot itself is. If the plot is simple like in Colors, and Generations the characters will act in a simple manner.

Nothing wrong with simple, and yeah, like I said, plot definitely helps and the characters were somewhat limited by the nature of the plot.

I don't need him to be some kind of complex soul-searcher, I just don't want his main trait to be walking around making jokes. Surely the plot and characterization isn't so ridiculously rigid that there is no way Sonic could reasonably do anything other than telling jokes.

Ugh, why do I get myself into Colors debates still. Just to clarify, I actually really LIKE Sonic being a cocky goofball - it's just not the ONLY thing I like.

[Kuzu]

Nothing wrong with simple, and yeah, like I said, plot definitely helps and the characters were somewhat limited by the nature of the plot.

I don't need him to be some kind of complex soul-searcher, I just don't want his main trait to be walking around making jokes. Surely the plot and characterization isn't so ridiculously rigid that there is no way Sonic could reasonably do anything other than telling jokes.

Ugh, why do I get myself into Colors debates still. Just to clarify, I actually really LIKE Sonic being a cocky goofball - it's just not the ONLY thing I like.

Well then blame Sonic Team, they decided to make the plots as simple as possible based on the reception of all of the previous attempts at complexity in the series. I mean can you really blame them, anytime the series tries to be "complex" it usually falls flat on its head, comes off as highly pretentious and out of place, or just completely overlooked in general.

They're main focus is the gameplay, so I doubt they care how complex their plots or characters are.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[DC111]

Well then blame Sonic Team, they decided to make the plots as simple as possible based on the reception of all of the previous attempts at complexity in the series. I mean can you really blame them, anytime the series tries to be "complex" it usually falls flat on its head, comes off as highly pretentious and out of place, or just completely overlooked in general.

Yeah. I can. Because if you ask me, an admirable company wouldn't ditch the notion of trying to write a decent story with decent characters because of previous setbacks. Sega have upped the gameplay standard for sure, but as far as plots and characters, they have regressed.

But that's not even what we were talking about, so I guess I'm done now.~