Attitude Adjustment

[Solkia]

I think Sonic needs to tap into his feminine side :3

[MegaMan_EXE]

I think Sonic needs to tap into his feminine side :3

How exactly would that work?

[Kuzu]

Heh heh, right back atcha. And I mean that for 06 Shadow and Colors/Gens Sonic.

...ok.

And if we can't argue who he is, then why do we have this topic? And why are you in here, then? Not trying to come off as anything, just genuinely curious.

Because its a free forum and I can post wherever I feel like? Isn't that the reason you're here?

The reason for this topic was to bring attention to Sonic's character's lukewarm reception outside the fanbase. Nobody really appreciates or even LIKES Sonic as a character. The OP was my guess as to why. The topic in general was what everyone else thought about the lack of popularity in Sonic's character and ways it could be improved (not changed; key word) but done better, conveying his personality in an appealing way.

Its really impossible to get everyone to like Sonic, but a way that people might start knowing about him is if the games stop being so....held back so to speak. First off, we need some consistency, Sonic doesn't necessarily act different in any game, its just that either the games give him really nothing interesting to do, or if there is something interesting than can be done, its never capitalized on. Basically in order for Sonic's character to improve, his storylines and the way they present themselves need to improve, and show Sonic as an actually interesting character with depth, or at least the amount of depth you can get into this series anyway.

And most of all, the game needs to not suck. The characters and story can be as good as can be, but if the rest of the game is lacking, nobody is going to care and that's been the problem with this series; One thing improves, while another takes a nose dive in quality.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[Rabid-Noodles]

I think Sonic has lost a bit of his cool. Some of my most memoriable moments of Sonic being cool and likeable are in cutscenes where he actually did something. For example, the Egg Golem cutscene in SA2. It's just the fact he hit it straight away, without stopping to make a snarky comment.

I think If they make more active cutscenes, with Sonic showing a little more emotion, then he may come off as cool and likeable instead of just annoying. Maybe, a little more like classic in Generations in regard to how he acts. That's just one way I can think of him being improved or adjusted.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Rabid-Noodles

[Kuzu]

I find it funny because Sonic's actions in the cutscenes never seemed to have changed people's view about him in the slightest, I mean despite being a grade A Badass in Unleashed, everyone still hates the Werehog with a burning passion.

[Rusty Spy]

Its really impossible to get everyone to like Sonic, but a way that people might start knowing about him is if the games stop being so....held back so to speak. First off, we need some consistency, Sonic doesn't necessarily act different in any game, its just that either the games give him really nothing interesting to do, or if there is something interesting than can be done, its never capitalized on. Basically in order for Sonic's character to improve, his storylines and the way they present themselves need to improve, and show Sonic as an actually interesting character with depth, or at least the amount of depth you can get into this series anyway.

And finally we come to an agreement.

[Kuzu]

And finally we come to an agreement.

Although I don't think turning him into a Dante clone is the answer because its Sonic, not Dante similar maybe but still completely different characters.

..I guess I can post what I'd do personally if I was in charge:

1. Actually develop the plot. There's nothing wrong with the plots themselves, just how they're presented is what's wrong, Eggman causing some shit that you gotta stop is all the plot you need, ok not need per se, but you can still have an interesting story with just that premise alone. Colors & Generations really don't have anything going on with them, they're so paper thin its ridiculous(although I hold on to the firm belief that Colors was deliberately parodying itself) Generations even moreso, I know story telling in video games might not be all that important, but I don't think giving the plot some actual importance and merit will hurt. What's Eggman's plan? How is it affecting the world around him? Why do we need to stop him? Eggman's plans need to have some kind of effect to give them some merit, and a reason for stopping him. Yeah sure Eggman, stole some aliens and harnessed the power of time, but what part of the story does this affect? In Sa2, Eggman broke into a military facility, blew it up, then blew up the moon and everyone was scared shitless, see its affecting the world and why his plans seem to efficient.

2. Bring in more characters. I don't give a rat's ass what the media or Sega think, and I will kick them in the balls if they try to sell more of this solo Sonic crap, its not good, it limits the series and its only being done to please the ass hurt people who can't stand to see anyone other than Sonic for more than 2 seconds, so we're going to put more characters than just three into a game, and if they don't like it, tough shit.

Anywho, I'd add at least three to four playable characters, and probably 7 or so NPC's depending on the needs of the plot, every NPC will have some affect on the plot, even if its a minor supporting one. Characters help a world feel complete so the more you have, the more complete the world, and if the media doesn't agree, Fuck them to the highest degree.

Felt good to get that off my chest.

[Salamander]

For example, the Egg Golem cutscene in SA2. It's just the fact he hit it straight away, without stopping to make a snarky comment.

Considerably cooler, for me, would be if he'd ignored Eggman's lines and attacked the Golem while Eggman was still speaking, interrupting him. That would show a pretty cool disregard for Eggman's threats.

[Phos]

Renegade for life, eh?

Pretty much any time they had the wavy 90's abortion version of Sonic talk it was cringeworthy and later on it was just dull... So let's do little thought experiment, let's take all those times and was them up and throw them away. I'm wadding them up, and now they're in the trash.

Going through those screen saver pictures or whatever they are, I see a juxtaposition of little patience with a thoughtful demeaner. Or rather, I see the thoughtful demeaner. In the games is really where the lack of patience comes from. This plays right into that slightly engrishy phylisophical statement about needing to take the first step (I think it came from Sonic CD), once he starts his journey to stop Robotnik he doesn't want to waste a moment, and in this case it seems to have to do with him caring about what could happen to the people he knows because of Robotnik's schemes (that is his motivation in the games after all). That makes me think he's extroverted. He seems to have no problem having others tag along so long as they can keep up with him.

You guys make this sound hard. It's really not.

[Chaos Warp]

Although I don't think turning him into a Dante clone is the answer because its Sonic, not Dante similar maybe but still completely different characters.

..I guess I can post what I'd do personally if I was in charge:

1. Actually develop the plot. There's nothing wrong with the plots themselves, just how they're presented is what's wrong, Eggman causing some shit that you gotta stop is all the plot you need, ok not need per se, but you can still have an interesting story with just that premise alone. Colors & Generations really don't have anything going on with them, they're so paper thin its ridiculous(although I hold on to the firm belief that Colors was deliberately parodying itself) Generations even moreso, I know story telling in video games might not be all that important, but I don't think giving the plot some actual importance and merit will hurt. What's Eggman's plan? How is it affecting the world around him? Why do we need to stop him? Eggman's plans need to have some kind of effect to give them some merit, and a reason for stopping him. Yeah sure Eggman, stole some aliens and harnessed the power of time, but what part of the story does this affect? In Sa2, Eggman broke into a military facility, blew it up, then blew up the moon and everyone was scared shitless, see its affecting the world and why his plans seem to efficient.

2. Bring in more characters. I don't give a rat's ass what the media or Sega think, and I will kick them in the balls if they try to sell more of this solo Sonic crap, its not good, it limits the series and its only being done to please the ass hurt people who can't stand to see anyone other than Sonic for more than 2 seconds, so we're going to put more characters than just three into a game, and if they don't like it, tough shit.

Anywho, I'd add at least three to four playable characters, and probably 7 or so NPC's depending on the needs of the plot, every NPC will have some affect on the plot, even if its a minor supporting one. Characters help a world feel complete so the more you have, the more complete the world, and if the media doesn't agree, Fuck them to the highest degree.

Felt good to get that off my chest.

This, even though I don't hate Solo Sonica as much as you do. I don't hate it by any means, I'd just prefer to have more of the cast playable and involved like you said.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[Rusty Spy]

Although I don't think turning him into a Dante clone is the answer because its Sonic, not Dante similar maybe but still completely different characters.

Again, I never said Sonic should be a Dante clone, though I'd be lying if I said he couldn't take a few notes from the latter. I know that Sonic and Dante are wildly different characters, but it's their attitude that makes the connection. I feel that Dante's arrogant, wisecracking demeanor is pulled off a lot better than Sonic, which is why I made that comparison in the first place.

The rest of your post however doesn't really address the actual topic. Your points only relate to Sonic superficially, not how they affect Sonic's portrayal.

Phos has the right idea, and I can agree, though I'd like to hear how that can be conveyed in the games.

[Kuzu]

Again, I never said Sonic should be a Dante clone, though I'd be lying if I said he couldn't take a few notes from the latter. I know that Sonic and Dante are wildly different characters, but it's their attitude that makes the connection. I feel that Dante's arrogant, wisecracking demeanor is pulled off a lot better than Sonic, which is why I made that comparison in the first place.

Because Devil May Cry is basically the embodiment of Rule of Cool, and a bit more mature than Sonic's series of general flare, its like comparing Apples and Oranges, they may look similar but have completely different flavors. Both Sonic & Dante know they're badass, and have the smug attitude to express it. In different doses mind you.

I mean compare Dante in DMC 3 to Sonic in Colors, they're virtually the same cheesy liners, hamtastic acting and all, the former just has more going on in the cutscenes while the latter focuses more on gameplay, which goes back to my arguement about more shit needs to happen in the cutscenses.

The rest of your post however doesn't really address the actual topic. Your points only relate to Sonic superficially, not how they affect Sonic's portrayal.

The cutscenes and how they're played out don't affect Sonic's portrayl? Edited March 7, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[Rusty Spy]

which goes back to my arguement about more shit needs to happen in the cutscenses

That was the argument that I was trying to make that you kept arguing against .

The cutscenes and how they're played out don't affect Sonic's portrayl?

You never mentioned cutscenes in your post.

[Nintendoga]

Haven't been following this topic but,

Why are we comparing two extremely different characters with different personalities, (one is a half angel/demon the other is a cartoon hedgehog) to each other?

That's like arguing Batman doesn't show enough emotion, and then comparing him to Spongebob's cheerfulness.

[Kuzu]

That was the argument that I was trying to make that you kept arguing against .

I said it didn't matter either way, not that they should never happen again.

You never mentioned cutscenes in your post.

I thought it was kind of obvious.

[Rusty Spy]

thought it was kind of obvious.

Regardless, my point still stands, its more focused on Eggman rather than Sonic. It doesn't really explain how it would convey Sonic's characteristics to audience better.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Black Spy

[Kuzu]

Regardless, my point still stands, its more focused on Eggman rather than Sonic. It doesn't really explain how it would convey Sonic's characteristics to audience better.

How can you expect Sonic to act, if there's nothing for him to act on?

[Nepenthe]

Haven't been following this topic but,

Why are we comparing two extremely different characters with different personalities, (one is a half angel/demon the other is a cartoon hedgehog) to each other?

That's like arguing Batman doesn't show enough emotion, and then comparing him to Spongebob's cheerfulness.

[Voyant]

Do you all know how amazing it would've been if Tails had been a cohort of Eggman's for the rest of the game and what type of conflict that would've wrought onto Sonic?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Soniman]

A sudden change of tone like that in a supposedly "easy going" story line is what I was looking for in Colors and never got. That would have been a great plot twist and would have given reason for not only Sonic, but for the player to really get down to business...

But alas the past is the past.

Heh, I washoping there would be a surprise second act of the game where Sonic's planet is mind controlled and the entire next half of the game would consist of Sonic facing and freeing his mind controlled friends. And even though the wisp's planets are freed, they stick around to help Sonic free his planet as a way of returning the favor. I don't know. It wound make the game longer and the two halves would be in good contrast. Act 1 being fun and whimsical, Act 2 would be Sonic going "time to get serious" and actually take Eggman seriously, etc etc.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Groosenator032

[JezMM]

Yeah, whenever someone brings up the "serious" moments in Colours as some kind of example of how it wasn't all cheesy, I can't help but say... well.. no.

Robot arm stuck in mind control cannon

Not brought back until the very end of the game at which point it wonderfully makes Sonic automatically win through sheer luck and coincidence.

Tails gets brainwashed

Resolved within the very cut-scene it is introduced, and when Tails is under control he does that annoying cartoon thing where being in a bad situation inexplicably makes the force of badness move ridiculously slow just so they can draw it out before solving it at the last possible second. Sure it's nice to think Tails was able to resist, but you know what would be even more dramatic? If he couldn't.

Discovering the Nega-Wisp plant

A nice scene for sure, but the main point was Yacker going missing. This was... never even touched upon again. He's just there in the ending.

Place is about to explode!

Not bad at all, why in fact there'd be nothing to fault here if not for...

Eggman's back and he means business

That's great but... wasn't the place about to explode? This battle has absoloutely no sense of urgency whatsoever. This would be fine if not for the fact that they literally put the escape on hold. If the infinite arena had still been going down through some visual trickery, maybe sure, but it wasn't. Sonic and Eggman literally stepped outside and ran laps for a bit. It's almost on par with the "wait, what?"ness of 2006's last boss for Sonic's story.

Final Escape

Oh right the explosion! Better get a move on then. Yeah I can't fault this actually. Shame it's less than a minute long but it was a great minute so I'll hold off.

[Kuzu]

The physiology of the characters doesn't describe either's personality, nor is it out of the realm to make comparisons between the two. Both Sonic and Dante are overconfident, playful, acrobatic, and cheesy badass heroes with old school nostalgia and sensibilities inherent in their design. One can go farther to either make the comparison more nuanced or even break it down, but the comparison itself doesn't really discredit Black Spy's point nor is it remotely the same as comparing Batman to Spongebob.

But more on the topic, if there's anything I'd like to see more of, it's Sonic getting visibly frustrated in the midst of an adventure. It's the above characteristics I listed, the general cockiness, that is probably responsible for the watered-down feeling of the latest escapades people are noticing. If the main hero isn't particularly flustered, the audience isn't expected to be either. That's a shame however, because when the hero recognizes his trials as particularly difficult, the stakes naturally raise and it's easier to invest interest in the outcome.

Remember Adventure? Sonic was blocked by Eggman at every conceivable turn: Dealing with his new cohort Chaos and a tricked Knuckles, having the Emeralds stolen all the time, rescuing Amy from Zero and Gamma, having the Tornado shot down and Tails separated from him, the fox potentially hurt or killed. After awhile into the game, Sonic just finally came out with it: "I hate Eggman!" Things were infinitely more interesting in SA1 than they have been in most games after, and that's simply because Sonic had to struggle to get things done.

But again, I'm not sure if this is so much a personality problem as it is a plotting problem. Nothing like this actually happens in the story anymore, so it would be unreasonable for Sonic to get hot under the collar. Sonic and Eggman don't even cross paths anymore either, preventing a lot of the above from naturally occuring.The best thing we had- and the biggest tease of all- was in Colors when Eggman blasted Tails with the mind control ray, but they copped out with the "lack of energy" excuse. Do you all know how amazing it would've been if Tails had been a cohort of Eggman's for the rest of the game and what type of conflict that would've wrought onto Sonic?

I digress, my point is still that I don't think the characterizations of anybody need to change so much as Sega's intentional avoidance of any actual conflict bigger than "Sonic needs to beat this obligatory boss/run out of the way of the obligatory apocalyptic scenario."

I don't know how you did it, but yeah this is pretty much what I was trying to say on the last page.

I don't mind Sonic being a general cheeseball, but there should be a moment when "Ok, enough of this shit, let's throw down" is apparent and should be taken into effect.

[DC111]

Not trying to revive the debate from a few pages ago here, because I can see better now that a lot of the characters' problems lie in the lacking plot. But do you think it also might be the fact that Sonic and Eggman are kinda used to each other by now? In Adventure, Eggman was perceived as more of a threat by Sonic and co. personally (regardless of what the measure of threat actually was in Adventure or Colors). But in Colors, they're so used to each other, and both very confident, that they almost seem like playful rivals instead of enemies. It makes sense I suppose, but still doesn't change that it could be part of what's diminishing the urgency that certain moments would normally have.

But yeah, for reasons others have stated already, the plot itself did stunt what could be done with the characters, and left some loose ends untied (like where Yacker went, why there are no people in the amusment park apparently...?, what would have happened if Tails's mind control wasn't resolved fifteen seconds later, etc.).

[Kuzu]

Not trying to revive the debate from a few pages ago here, because I can see better now that a lot of the characters' problems lie in the lacking plot. But do you think it also might be the fact that Sonic and Eggman are kinda used to each other by now? In Adventure, Eggman was perceived as more of a threat by Sonic and co. personally (regardless of what the measure of threat actually was in Adventure or Colors). But in Colors, they're so used to each other, and both very confident, that they almost seem like playful rivals instead of enemies. It makes sense I suppose, but still doesn't change that it could be part of what's diminishing the urgency that certain moments would normally have.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Haven't been following this topic but,

Why are we comparing two extremely different characters with different personalities, (one is a half angel/

Edited March 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic