The opportunities of a new Sonic show down the line.

[RDNexus]

Yes, the Hero who's been able to take down Demi-Gods, and Cosmic Horrors is defeated by.....getting stabbed in the back because he got blinded, by somebody who didn't want to face him, totally worthy.

Seriously that entire scene was like a spit in the face to Sonic, so no I'd rather not see Mephiles again.

Yeah, in Sonic06 he was poorly written, specially in the Last Episode, but that doesn't mean he could be corrected or better written. I'd prefer that way rather than having him completely removed...

Edited March 8, 2012 by XRick

[Tornado]

That basically just sounds like all of the "bring Mighty back" defenses, except Mighty doesn't tend to be outright hated like Mephiles is.

If you are going to introduce a big bad to take away the spotlight from Eggman (which is something people are already going to be annoyed with) for your Sonic TV show (which is also something people will be wary about inherently), you might as well not tie both your hands behind your back by trying to make a character who is outright hated on a conceptual level be said antagonist. Especially not when you could just as well start whole cloth and make a character who isn't previously established to fill the role; which would both be easier and be far more effective.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tornado

[Kuzu]

Yeah, in Sonic06 he was poorly written, specially in the Last Episode, but that doesn't mean he could be corrected or better written.

I'd prefer that way rather than having him completely removed...

Except Mephiles is kind of hated, and replacing Eggman with him is only going to make people hate him more. You're better off not bothering with him considering said reception, and just make another antagonist.

[Diogenes]

Why? Mephiles has great potential of becoming a great character, he killed Sonic with a flick of the wrist.

[VO.SUPER]

I'd love to see another Sonic anime; just done by a competent studio this time. The character designs already look anime-like as they are, so they'd easily translate to that sort of art style.

A Studio Bones Sonic show would absolutely blow me away, but I know it's never going to happen.

Yeah, that's the complication of the situation. Sonic needs funding from the region where he is celebrated (America, Europe) and Japan is not one of them, hence why Sonic X had some of the most atrocious animation known to man. Sonic's name cannot pay for the high costs good animation would require from an anime, (when your Shonen show loses to a Magical Girl anime in ratings, you know there's something wrong). And forget about marketting toys in this day and age in Japan, the decreasing birthrate, along with Sonic's lack of popularity in Japan means that's out of the question.

The most we can hope for is that the Americans and Koreans would be given character sheets by Sonic Team.

-----

I have a reason to include Mephiles. Because stretching one villain over the course of a series would be stale without some variety. Especially since the standard is 65 episodes. Aside from Mephiles, we only have 3 other villains, Eggman Nega, Metal Sonic (who's gone back to being a crony for the time being), and Eggman.

Mephiles may have come from a terrible game, but his plan isn't bad in concept. He wants to destroy time, and he wants to do it by tearing everything apart. That's decent. Let's not forget that Dan Green was his actor, whose performance came off hammy. Up the ham and Mephiles could make a good one time villain.

Nonsequitur. "Can easily kill the hero"=/="potentially great character/villain". In fact that may be the least important thing. Even in a series like this, where the climax would almost certainly come down to a direct Sonic vs *bad guy* fight, you only need a villain that appropriately challenges Sonic. The weight of the fight comes from what's at stake if Sonic loses and how much he has to struggle to win, and the latter can be modified by circumstances beyond the "power levels" of the characters, and the power levels can be fudged outright if it's still set up believably. And as a character in general, the fact that he's ridiculously powerful is irrelevant in the best case; the quality of a character is how he's written, his goals, his motivation, his personality, etc etc, not his ability to shoot lasers from his hands. And being ridiculously powerful might actually be a detriment, especially the longer he's around; it becomes less and less believable that this ridiculously strong evil guy doesn't just start solving his problems with extreme violence.

Given you'd be rewriting pretty much everything about him from scratch anyway, and that a lot of people already hate him, I can think of no benefit at all to using Mephiles.

Sonic loses all of time, and that's a pretty big weight only brought down by the terrible writing. The power level discussion is irrelevant, as that can apply to all of Sonic's foes. If anything, it's a flaw with the concept of Super Sonic, not Mephiles.

Mephiles is written as a coward, a deciever, and weak. He's a villain who runs with the power of screwing around with his victims, and that already is menacing enough.

Not to mention, a villain needs no motivation other than to see the world burn. There are villains like that who can be good, the Joker is one, and Kefka's another.

He is a ham, a character who gloats about himself, and hams can be very good when upped. *cough*Eggman*cough*

Everything you've touched upon is a problem with the game's story and not with Mephiles' character. The only thing that would have to be rewritten is his method of achieving his goal.

Edited March 9, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[Kuzu]

Not to mention, a villain needs no motivation other than to see the world burn. There are villains like that who can be good, the Joker is one, and Kefka's another.

Kefka and Joker actually have interesting character traits.

[VO.SUPER]

Kefka and Joker actually have interesting character traits.

Brevity doesn't counter what I said.

Mephiles' traits are tied to the execution of them, and they were all done terribly. If you stick Joker and Kefka into situations where their traits aren't used well then they'd suffer the same thing.

[SRB2Unleashed]

Well, I couldn't stop thinking about a Sonic show so I made my idea into this:

Only Season 1 Ideas are posted at the moment.

[Diogenes]

I have a reason to include Mephiles. Because stretching one villain over the course of a series would be stale without some variety. Especially since the standard is 65 episodes.

Variety doesn't need to come from other villains, and even if it did, I see no reason to use Mephiles when '06 has already poisoned the character's reception beyond repair.

Mephiles may have come from a terrible game, but his plan isn't bad in concept. He wants to destroy time, and he wants to do it by tearing everything apart. That's decent.

No, that's shit. It's generic destruction with no clear motivation. That's not a character motivation, that's an impersonal force of nature. Which could actually be dramatic if he didn't out-villain-cliche the evil invading alien from the game before. Can we maybe have villains that have some actual meaning, rather than being so generic that they could be replaced by any random monster?

Sonic loses all of time, and that's a pretty big weight only brought down by the terrible writing. The power level discussion is irrelevant, as that can apply to all of Sonic's foes. If anything, it's a flaw with the concept of Super Sonic, not Mephiles.

...what? I have no idea how anything you just said relates to anything I said.

Mephiles is written as a coward, a deciever, and weak.

Deceiver, sure. But I don't know how you're going to say a guy who taunts the walking tank, then laughs off his gunfire, is written as weak and a coward.

Not to mention, a villain needs no motivation other than to see the world burn. There are villains like that who can be good, the Joker is one, and Kefka's another.

Yeah, but you need a hell of a lot of charisma if you're going to pull that off, and Mephiles is fucking boring. And I can't talk about Kefka since I've never played FFwhatever but there's a lot more to the Joker than simply "hur dur bein' a bad guy because".

He is a ham, a character who gloats about himself, and hams can be very good when upped. *cough*Eggman*cough*

Yes, Eggman, a character who already fills that role. Why do we need two? Especially when Mephiles is worse at it? And that's even divorced from '06, the eccentric cartoon fat man fits the role worlds better than the twice-recolored demonic Sonic. Honestly I'd call his hamminess in '06 incompetence rather than intentional because it's completely incongruous with his design and the rest of his portrayal, which are all about being a serious creepy villain (which they also failed at).

[Kuzu]

Brevity doesn't counter what I said.

Mephiles' traits are tied to the execution of them, and they were all done terribly. If you stick Joker and Kefka into situations where their traits aren't used well then they'd suffer the same thing.

Exactly. Mephiles sucks, so what possible reason could there be to bring him back? You're essentially saying we should try to salvage something from garbage. Mephiles was a poorly written character, in a poorly written game and no amount of "potential" he had is going to change that and because he's shitty there's absolutely no justifiable reason to bring him back for anything.

He's a cliched villain with overly complicated plans, and no interesting traits to make him a good villain, and he's better off being forgotten along with the shit stain of a game he debuted in.

[Diogenes]

God, I just...I keep coming back here even when I know there's no new posts because I just don't get it. What the hell is Mephiles' appeal? Why would anyone ever want this character back?

[VO.SUPER]

Variety doesn't need to come from other villains, and even if it did, I see no reason to use Mephiles when '06 has already poisoned the character's reception beyond repair.

No, that's shit. It's generic destruction with no clear motivation. That's not a character motivation, that's an impersonal force of nature. Which could actually be dramatic if he didn't out-villain-cliche the evil invading alien from the game before. Can we maybe have villains that have some actual meaning, rather than being so generic that they could be replaced by any random monster?

...what? I have no idea how anything you just said relates to anything I said.

Deceiver, sure. But I don't know how you're going to say a guy who taunts the walking tank, then laughs off his gunfire, is written as weak and a coward.

Yeah, but you need a hell of a lot of charisma if you're going to pull that off, and Mephiles is fucking boring. And I can't talk about Kefka since I've never played FFwhatever but there's a lot more to the Joker than simply "hur dur bein' a bad guy because".

Yes, Eggman, a character who already fills that role. Why do we need two? Especially when Mephiles is worse at it? And that's even divorced from '06, the eccentric cartoon fat man fits the role worlds better than the twice-recolored demonic Sonic. Honestly I'd call his hamminess in '06 incompetence rather than intentional because it's completely incongruous with his design and the rest of his portrayal, which are all about being a serious creepy villain (which they also failed at).

1. I'll agree with you on that one.

2.“Some people just want to see the world burn” - And those people can be compelling. You've essentially proved my point. Citing Doom as a reason for Mephiles to not be included is just plain silly; variety in motivation between two one shot villains isn't all that important, what's important is execution.

3. You were talking about power levels and I interepretted that as you saying, "the threat is nullified by Sonic just becoming stronger." Tell me otherwise and I'll give you another response.

4. I worded that badly. He's a coward in that he's not direct when it comes to confrontation unless he's got a bunch of minions backing him up. During Phase 1, he hides from Shadow and lets his minions do the work. Even during Omega's first fight he tries to stay as far away as he could. Plus, during the scene where he taunts Omega on the beach was most likely one of his clones, or else he would have left residue behind. He's overconfident as a way to put up a show.

5. You've answered me already. Just put him in the right situation with his normal traits and he'll shine.

6. Incompotent or not, it became his best known part of him, and there is nothing wrong with that if he was tweaked to go into that direction. Hammy villains can become scary in their own way. Just look at the villains Norio Wakamoto plays.

Exactly. Mephiles sucks, so what possible reason could there be to bring him back? You're essentially saying we should try to salvage something from garbage. Mephiles was a poorly written character, in a poorly written game and no amount of "potential" he had is going to change that and because he's shitty there's absolutely no justifiable reason to bring him back for anything.

He's a cliched villain with overly complicated plans, and no interesting traits to make him a good villain, and he's better off being forgotten along with the shit stain of a game he debuted in.

You've litterally ignored everything I said. I've already stated his interesting traits, and you ignore my reasons. You haven't even backed yourself up with more than, " I hate him, because he was poorly executed!"

God, I just...I keep coming back here even when I know there's no new posts because I just don't get it. (1)What the hell is Mephiles' appeal? (2)Why would anyone ever want this character back?

1. Because people see potential in him that you can't see.

2. We'd like to see him in another role. S-i-m-p-l-e a-s t-h-a-t.

[Komodin]

I have a reason to include Mephiles. Because stretching one villain over the course of a series would be stale without some variety. Especially since the standard is 65 episodes. Aside from Mephiles, we only have 3 other villains, Eggman Nega, Metal Sonic (who's gone back to being a crony for the time being), and Eggman.

Of course, one could always go the route of adding in some OC villains. They needn't necessarily be mainstays, of course; a few one-shots can do just fine.

[Kuzu]

You've litterally ignored everything I said. I've already stated his interesting traits, and you ignore my reasons. You haven't even backed yourself up with more than, " I hate him, because he was poorly executed!"

\

All of the things you listed are exactly the reasons why he sucks, they were executed badly. And in case you missed it, I gave a damn good reason why Mephiles should never come back:

Except Mephiles is kind of hated, and replacing Eggman with him is only going to make people hate him more. You're better off not bothering with him considering said reception, and just make another antagonist.

He's hated, nobody likes him but a select few people. Just make a new villain dude, why should we try to go back someone whom nobody liked and was used poorly? All the effort than can used on Mepiles may as well be used on a new character entirely, so what's the point? You still haven't given a justifiable point or reason for bringing Mephiles back beyond "I thought he was cool and had potential"

[VO.SUPER]

All of the things you listed are exactly the reasons why he sucks, they were executed badly. And in case you missed it, I gave a damn good reason why Mephiles should never come back:

He's hated, nobody likes him but a select few people. Just make a new villain dude, why should we try to go back someone whom nobody liked and was used poorly? All the effort than can used on Mepiles may as well be used on a new character entirely, so what's the point? You still haven't given a justifiable point or reason for bringing Mephiles back beyond "I thought he was cool and had potential"

You're so called reason doesn't even explain why those traits suck. You're still being subjective and uncooperative. So in the case of this arguements involvling his traits: I find you're acting silly, old chap, so I'm dropping it.

As for the second part, I sure as hell haven't seen the full on hatred for Mephiles as you've said outside of these forums. Most of what I've seen of him has been some very intimidating looking fanart and weird fanfiction which mostly praises him. Not to mention the comments that follow these things usually speak positivily for Mephiles. If anything, I see no proof on your end to tell me that he is more hated than liked. Of course, even my evidence doesn't really equate for how much he is liked. So unless you can prove otherwise, I'd see him as debated between fans and haters.

Of course, one could always go the route of adding in some OC villains. They needn't necessarily be mainstays, of course; a few one-shots can do just fine.

Sure. Go on ahead. I'd honestly still like Mephiles to be there, but I'd still be content if he wasn't, just variety in villainy.

(P.S What I said above won't stop me from debating why he can be there.)

Edited March 9, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[Diogenes]

2.“Some people just want to see the world burn” - And those people can be compelling. You've essentially proved my point.

Except I can't see how Mephiles has in any way even approached compelling. The fact that some characters that fit some broad category that also includes Mephiles work, does not mean that Mephiles is any good.

Citing Doom as a reason for Mephiles to not be included is just plain silly; variety in motivation between two one shot villains isn't all that important, what's important is execution.

I cited Doom as being a terrible cliche, and Mephiles is even worse than him.

3. You were talking about power levels and I interepretted that as you saying, "the threat is nullified by Sonic just becoming stronger." Tell me otherwise and I'll give you another response.

Yeah that...is not in any way what I was saying. What I was saying was, the strength of the villain is not what makes the conflict interesting.

4. I worded that badly. He's a coward in that he's not direct when it comes to confrontation unless he's got a bunch of minions backing him up. During Phase 1, he hides from Shadow and lets his minions do the work. Even during Omega's first fight he tries to stay as far away as he could. Plus, during the scene where he taunts Omega on the beach was most likely one of his clones, or else he would have left residue behind. He's overconfident as a way to put up a show.

In other words, not at all what you had said before. He doesn't fight, except for when he does. Thrilling.

5. You've answered me already. Just put him in the right situation with his normal traits and he'll shine.

What is "the right situation" and in what respects would he "shine"?

6. Incompotent or not, it became his best known part of him, and there is nothing wrong with that if he was tweaked to go into that direction. Hammy villains can become scary in their own way. Just look at the villains Norio Wakamoto plays.

This is what I don't get, why do you like a character for things he's never done? Yes, a villain can be both hammy and scary, but Mephiles wasn't. You said they'd only have to rewrite his plan, but that's not true, because you'd have to rebuild his character practically from the ground up from the poorly written, fragmented bundle of cliches he was in '06.

You haven't even backed yourself up with more than, " I hate him, because he was poorly executed!"

He's a Shadow recolor with no motivation, terrible plans, and an inconsistent personality. There is no actual tension in anything he does; he is just A Bad Guy that the game tries to elevate into this mysterious chessmaster type except they're fucking terrible at it. Any "potential" that he has is only because of the generic archetypes they based him on, not because of anything specific to him, thus there is no reason to give a shit about him. They would be better off making some new chessmaster character instead of dragging that worthless baggage along.

1. Because people see potential in him that you can't see.

2. We'd like to see him in another role. S-i-m-p-l-e a-s t-h-a-t.

Could you maybe possibly explain these things instead of giving useless vague responses? And I'm not talking about whatever invented "potential" you see, because I don't care about your mental fanfiction; I want to know why you give a shit about the character in the first place, what in his actual canon appearance makes him worth caring about.

If anything, I see no proof on your end to tell me that he is more hated than liked.

He's from fuckin' '06. That should be proof enough.

[Kuzu]

You're so called reason doesn't even explain why those traits suck.

BECAUSE THEY WERE USED POORLY!! I honestly can't explain it better than this, do you seriously want me to type an essay on why I hate Mephiles?

As for the second part, I sure as hell haven't seen the full on hatred for Mephiles as you've said outside of these forums. Most of what I've seen of him has been some very intimidating looking fanart and weird fanfiction which mostly praises him. Not to mention the comments that follow these things usually speak positivily for Mephiles. If anything, I see no proof on your end to tell me that he is more hated than liked. Of course, even my evidence doesn't really equate for how much he is liked. So unless you can prove otherwise, I'd see him as debated between fans and haters

The fact that he's from 06 should be proof enough, and a little fanart isn't going to change that.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[Tornado]

As for the second part, I sure as hell haven't seen the full on hatred for Mephiles as you've said outside of these forums. Most of what I've seen of him has been some very intimidating looking fanart and weird fanfiction which mostly praises him.

You mean the handful of people who actually can stand him enough to waste time drawing him or writing him into stories or whatever like him? Stop the presses.

Really, what is that supposed to prove?

[VO.SUPER]

Except I can't see how Mephiles has in any way even approached compelling. The fact that some characters that fit some broad category that also includes Mephiles work, does not mean that Mephiles is any good.

I cited Doom as being a terrible cliche, and Mephiles is even worse than him.

Yeah that...is not in any way what I was saying. What I was saying was, the strength of the villain is not what makes the conflict interesting.

In other words, not at all what you had said before. He doesn't fight, except for when he does. Thrilling.

What is "the right situation" and in what respects would he "shine"?

This is what I don't get, why do you like a character for things he's never done? Yes, a villain can be both hammy and scary, but Mephiles wasn't. You said they'd only have to rewrite his plan, but that's not true, because you'd have to rebuild his character practically from the ground up from the poorly written, fragmented bundle of cliches he was in '06.

He's a Shadow recolor with no motivation, terrible plans, and an inconsistent personality. There is no actual tension in anything he does; he is just A Bad Guy that the game tries to elevate into this mysterious chessmaster type except they're fucking terrible at it. Any "potential" that he has is only because of the generic archetypes they based him on, not because of anything specific to him, thus there is no reason to give a shit about him. They would be better off making some new chessmaster character instead of dragging that worthless baggage along.

Could you maybe possibly explain these things instead of giving useless vague responses? And I'm not talking about whatever invented "potential" you see, because I don't care about your mental fanfiction; I want to know why you give a shit about the character in the first place, what in his actual canon appearance makes him worth caring about.

He's from fuckin' '06. That should be proof enough.

1. Then nothing I tell you will convince you otherwise.

2. His motivation may be cliched, but so are many other great villains.

3. It isn't even his strength I'm arguing about. It's about what he was doing that was making him menacing, and the urgency of the situation considering how time was collapsing all around.

4. He doesn't fight directly because he doesn't want to be harmed, hence why he approaches few but Shadow directly because he's trying to get him to his side.

5. In a chessmaster role, pulling all the strings with better writing, and less plot holes than '06, simple.

6. You say he wasn't, I respond with the simple, he was, and that's already as a part of him as Derpy's eyes were to her after the first episode.

7. Aside from "terrible plans" everything you stated is subjective.

8. I've stated my reasons already and you don't agree with them. I love his voice, I like his potential as a great character, and I like his personality. You don't believe what I say is valid, so there was no point in repeating myself.

9. That doesn't even deserve a proper answer: Who cares?

BECAUSE THEY WERE USED POORLY!! I honestly can't explain it better than this, do you seriously want me to type an essay on why I hate Mephiles?

The fact that he's from 06 should be proof enough, and a little fanart isn't going to change that.

1. Subjective proof.

You mean the handful of people who actually can stand him enough to waste time drawing him or writing him into stories or whatever like him? Stop the presses.

Really, what is that supposed to prove?

It was supposed to prove nothing. You have no concrete proof, and neither do I.

Edited March 9, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[Tornado]

You've still yet to crawl yourself out of the Mighty Trap.

[VO.SUPER]

You've still yet to crawl yourself out of the Mighty Trap.

You mean the thing where there are better options? I've no intention to. Use anyone other than Mephiles and I'm ok with that.

Edited March 9, 2012 by VisionaryBlur

[Kuzu]

1. Subjective proof.

So the fact that he was poorly written in one of the worst games in the franchises history doesn't prove without a doubt that he's hated....next you're going to tell me that Princess Elise is a great character that should come back and her relationship with Sonic should be touched upon.

[VO.SUPER]

So the fact that he was poorly written in one of the worst games in the franchises history doesn't prove without a doubt that he's hated....next you're going to tell me that Princess Elise is a great character that should come back and her relationship with Sonic should be touched upon.

You're asking me to believe you as the word of the people. I can't really do that.

[Kuzu]

You're asking me to believe you as the word of the people. I can't really do that.

No, but considering that he's from a game that's undoubtedly universally hated is really what I'm basing it on. Seriously, you're trying to open a wound that doesn't need to be opened, reminding people of 06 is just going to make people hate it more.

[Nepenthe]

I'm going to skip the Mephiles nonsense going on right now and state what I would personally want in a new Sonic show, aside from it being a 2D production of course. I think I've elaborated on that tangent enough.

First, set it on Earth again but without any of the dimensional hijinks X used to explain why the principal cast lived there. It's unnecessary; Dragon Ball had dinosaurs, furries, and outer space energy monkeys living on Earth and no one complained about it. More specifically, utilize specific settings from the games: all of the islands, cities, workshops, hangouts, natural landmarks, etc.. Use the badniks too. The games' world is pretty huge and iconic, and there's no reason not to take advantage of the material. However, don't fall into the trap of rehashing the games' stories as a result. It's a waste of potential on the show's end and completely redundant to the principal audience who buys the games anyway. If anything, the show should drive newcomers to discover those stories on more proper terms by getting them interested in the games too.

All you need for a primary cast are Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman, and probably Orbot and Cubot thrown in to give Eggman someone to play off of and interact with when he's not confronting anyone. I would expand the secondary cast to the rest of the people who appeared in Heroes. They're recognizable and recurring enough to be great fan service, they can help drive the conflict between the heroes and villains and even amongst the heroes themselves, and they'd make the show less redundant, if not by their mere presence then by having episodes or short arcs dedicated to them. I wouldn't mess with Silver, Blaze, or Marine though. Again, alternate dimensional plot points just complicate matters and create characters that have a lot of potential but an extremely high bar of entry into a story. It's just not really worth it.

Speaking of the story, the plot would be simple: Eggman is building up his biggest scheme for world domination yet, and Sonic and co. must stop him from achieving it. This would play out as both episodic like in X in which Eggman's ambitions and plans force him into constant contact with the rest of the cast, as well as over the long-term as Eggman builds up his arsenal, adding continuity between all of the episodes and allowing the series to easily have a really good finale once he's ready to roll out the big guns and things come to a head as a result.