Light stories and why I believe they suck

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Let's assume this guy is also the main character in a fictional story.

Let's also try not missing the point, because CNM was talking about a completely different character than Dissident was making pretty obvious.

[Kuzu]

Let's also try not missing the point, because CNM was talking about a completely different character than Dissident was making pretty obvious.

I know, I was referring to Dissident's post when I made that post.

[Solid SOAP]

I feel that it'd be in SEGA's best interest to keep stories lighter and safer now than ever. If Generations is to be bringing in older fans who lost hope in the series, they're not going to really get excited after playing a wonderfully classic game like Generations, only to find the next game out to be The Hedgehog Redemption. Maybe after the next game SEGA push out, but until then I think it'd be best for the franchise to stick with simpler stories that can get across to all mediums with ease, without taking away from the gameplay at all.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know, I was referring to Dissident's post when I made that post.

I was just strengthening your point. My god, and to think there couldn't be anyone more obsessive over a character.

[Kuzu]

I feel that it'd be in SEGA's best interest to keep stories lighter and safer now than ever. If Generations is to be bringing in older fans who lost hope in the series, they're not going to really get excited after playing a wonderfully classic game like Generations, only to find the next game out to be The Hedgehog Redemption. Maybe after the next game SEGA push out, but until then I think it'd be best for the franchise to stick with simpler stories that can get across to all mediums with ease, without taking away from the gameplay at all.

Then those Classic Fans need to move on from the past. The franchise shouldn't have to stick with simple stories, when its been shown that they can do more than just a simple story. What we want is something engaging as we progress through the game, not cutscenes of Sonic & Tails pointing out the obvious with the occasional gag here and there.

, and to think there couldn't be anyone more obsessive over a character.

Word of Advice: Never visit the Sega Forums, its far worse over there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Then those Classic Fans need to move on from the past. The franchise shouldn't have to stick with simple stories, when its been shown that they can do more than just a simple story. What we want is something engaging as we progress through the game, not cutscenes of Sonic & Tails pointing out the obvious with the occasional gag here and there.

I don't think it's a matter of them sticking to simple stories than it is actually making a good one. I'm not against a simple story, and I'm not against a complex one either; however, I AM against bare bone stories or overly convoluted ones. Good for a quick glance, but usually the second time around is where I get critical.

Word of Advice: Never visit the Sega Forums, its far worse over there.

I think the real thing I should worry about is how quickly a person like me would get banned there.

Edited November 10, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I don't think it's a matter of them sticking to simple stories than it is actually making a good one. I'm not against a simple story, and I'm not against a complex one either; however, I AM against bare bone stories or overly convoluted ones. Good for a quick glance, but usually the second time around is where I get critical.

When I say simple, I'm talking about bare bones. I need to be more specific. But yeah, the problem aren't the simple stories, its how bare bones they are in executing said simple stories.

I think the real thing I should worry about is how quickly a person like me would get banned there.

Its the one place where sense doesn't exist.

[Ferno]

I feel that it'd be in SEGA's best interest to keep stories lighter and safer now than ever. If Generations is to be bringing in older fans who lost hope in the series, they're not going to really get excited after playing a wonderfully classic game like Generations, only to find the next game out to be The Hedgehog Redemption. Maybe after the next game SEGA push out, but until then I think it'd be best for the franchise to stick with simpler stories that can get across to all mediums with ease, without taking away from the gameplay at all.

I know this is selfish thinking, but sometimes I catch myself thinking, "Why should I, who've invested quite a bit of my time and love to this franchise for such a big chunk of my life, have to suffer and settle for less, just because so and so stayed out of the loop all these years because he followed the 'Sonic Sux' crowd?"

Yeah, it's all good and well that they "discovered" Sonic again (when he never went anywhere to begin with, >_>) but sometimes I feel like I'm being shafted in favor of the casual people who probably didn't give much of a crap about Generations and rented it for two days anyway. I just want a decent story that I can enjoy, but at the same time I'm being nice enough to consider the feelings of those casual players. I just don't want things to lean so much more to their side all the time, especially when a game comes out that should've been leaning more to the fan's side anyway, almost like a "reward," if you will, for sticking around, through thick and thin. even when times got tough, even when hope seemed lost. They weren't the ones that stood by the series' side, we were, we didn't have to put up with Sega's crap, but we did, and I feel like we just got less than we deserved in terms of the game's story in the end.

Not saying that we're "entitled" to stuff, as Sega's a business at the end of the day, but that's just how I feel.

[Sami]

• Become someone who's more skilled(equal at best to your speed and strength at best) at fighting than you and also hasn't been defeated by anyone.
  
• Give him a reality check by beating the loser in to them if not outclass them not only in skills but have greater skill in something that they can do normally.
  
• Tell him he was being generous and holding back for the challenge of it and were not even trying to fight at full power which would have killed him easy.
  

... Okay, now I feel dumb. I can't debate with you if I don't have a clue what you're trying to tell me. I'm saying that you are the most skilled fighter on the planet, and some loser you've already beaten up dozens of times is picking a fight with you. Now, I'm guessing your post is illustrating the point of view of the loser who always gets beat up, but that doesn't make any sense when taking the context of my post into account. Mind clarifying?

Let's also try not missing the point, because CNM was talking about a completely different character than Dissident was making pretty obvious.

We're talking about Sonic, aren't we? >.>

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

I was just making sure you clear one what you were talking about.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We're talking about Sonic, aren't we? >.>

That's what I assumed considering who you were describing.

Edited November 10, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dr. Mechano]

I know this is selfish thinking, but sometimes I catch myself thinking, "Why should I, who've invested quite a bit of my time and love to this franchise for such a big chunk of my life, have to suffer and settle for less, just because so and so stayed out of the loop all these years because he followed the 'Sonic Sux' crowd?"

Don't blame all your opposition on the new fans. Some of us longtime fans love the lighthearted stories too.

I had to "settle" and suffer through Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic 2K6, just as you're apparently settling and suffering through Colors and Generations. I've been where you are- Seeing the series go in a direction I didn't really care for, but sticking around anyway because there were a few fleeting elements of the things I did like (Eggman being chief among them).

Even though you and I have completely different opinions about the way the series ought to be, I can understand where you're coming from- Because I lived it. I was a Sonic fan who hated the franchise's storyline, and only stuck around because I liked some of the characters, and clung to hopes that someday it'd get better. With the advent of Unleashed, it slowly started to, and Colors saw things tilt full swing in my favor, with Generations keeping up the tone I loved. I saw it as vindication for all the convoluted plotlines, all the amnesia angst, all the robot angst, all the giant generic monsters of doom. It was a glimmer of hope after I sat through Metal Sonic turning into a giant angsty dinosaur, those terrible Eggman death endings in Shadow, and Mephiles killing Sonic and Elise smooching him back to life. I waited and waited and waited, and finally got through what I consider the Sonic franchise's dark age, into the light at the end of the poorly-written tunnel that was Heroes-Shadow-2K6.

While I feel sympathy for you not enjoying the series as you used to, I simultaneously feel like I need to enjoy the franchise myself for as much as I can for as long as this lasts. The pessimist in me knows this won't last forever- These things always happen in cycles, and I'm sure in another decade or less, we'll be right back to monsters of the week, angsty revenge plots, and shock-value death scenes again. But until that happens, I'm going to take a breath of fresh air and actually enjoy the Sonic franchise for a change- Something I haven't been able to do in years; Years that I patiently waited, ever a Sonic fan despite my discontent. (And I do hope, sincerely, that you're able to enjoy this shift more than I enjoyed the last, since I didn't at all. Try to still have fun despite it not being your cup of tea, and you'll certainly be better off than I was)

Let me reiterate though- Don't blame the preference for lighter stories all on the new fans. Some of the old guard of the fandom has been waiting for this for a long time coming, and certainly weren't "out of the loop" regarding the series. We've been here the whole time, anticipating exactly this.

[Ferno]

I understand where you're coming from, I didn't like Monsters of the Week and the likes of '06 either, (well, actually as a kid I sorta didn't see a problem with them, but not at all today, today I see that they were bad...Though I still think stuff like His World is badass..) All I really want is what we've been getting with Colors and Generations, but laid on a bit thicker, with the level of seriousness turned up to atleast 5 on a scale of 10 instead of 2.

I never said I hated the recent games plots, I just want more of it per game rather than less. Wouldn't you like a bunch of chances to see Eggman's hilarious antics rather than a few?

Edited November 10, 2011 by 'Ferno

[Dr. Mechano]

I understand where you're coming from, I didn't like Monsters of the Week and the likes of '06 either, all I really want is what we've been getting with Colors and Generations, but laid on a bit thicker, with the level of seriousness turned up to atleast 5 on a scale of 10 instead of 2.

I never said I hated the recent games plots, I just want more of it per game rather than less. Wouldn't you like a bunch of chances to see Eggman's hilarious antics rather than a few?

Well, certainly. I think Colors and Generations could've only been improved with more/better dialog, and I have no disagreement with you on that front.

I thought your point of contention was that the premises themselves were too lighthearted or silly for your liking, but if we're talking about execution, then- well- you and I seem to totally be on the same page. As much as I adore Colors/Generations, I would have liked more dialog and more interaction between the characters. That wouldn't compromise the lighthearted tone of the games at all, and could actually make them even more charming and comedic than they already turned out, which in my book is only a good thing.

I seem to have misunderstood your position, 'Ferno. Perhaps what we want is more similar than I initially thought. As a fan of the Colors school of writing, I'm certainly for more dialog and character development. I've always been an advocate of the idea that lighthearted stories can be really rich sources of characterization after all. After all, one reason I liked the Adventure games was their sympathetic character development, including their humanizing treatment of Eggman in SA2 in particular. A brilliant blend of Colors' comedy and SA2's depth would really be the perfect Eggman role in my humble opinion as a longtime Eggfan.

...So count me as "Quite satisfied with the Colors style overall, but still rooting for it to do a little better and dig a little deeper." I'd love a lighthearted story that manages to simultaneously have great depth as far as characterization goes, so that's pretty much my stance on things. I still want Sonic to be a lighthearted series, but I want it to be the best lighthearted series it can be, so by all means bring on the more fleshed-out characterization. You'll get nothing but praise from me for it.

Sonic Team writers, just remember "complex" does not equal "dark." A story doesn't have to be grim and dreary to be deep or well-written. This is a concept I hope Sonic's writers never forget.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Dr. Mechano

[Mangoaxe5]

I think the thing that bugs me the most about the return to lighthearted isn't the stories themselves but the reason behind them.

The reason why we're getting the lighthearted stories is because Sega is afraid, and is playing it too safe.

The jokes and alot of the humor in Sonic Colors felt force to me.

[Dejablue]

I don't care for Grimdark. But at the same time I'm just in no particular hurry to finish Generations. I'm at City Escape now and yeah the levels are fun. But I literally play one level then turn the game off and go do something else. It's like nothing is really keeping me interested in playing for a long period of time.

[Ferno]

I don't care for Grimdark. But at the same time I'm just in no particular hurry to finish Generations. I'm at City Escape now and yeah the levels are fun. But I literally play one level then turn the game off and go do something else. It's like nothing is really keeping me interested in playing for a long period of time.

Agreed, I know people jump on me for this, but while the classics will always be objectively better for the foreseeable future, I'm more drawn to the later games because of when I started in the series, which was at the halfway point roughly 10 years ago. Back in the SA2 and Heroes days, for me, the story was just as important as the gameplay. The storylines gave me a reason to keep playing. Besides the levels being fun, it was the anticipation for the next cutscene, "what's gonna happen next? " that would always drive me to finish the stages all the way through to the end. I liked feeling like I was playing a videogame that was also a storydriven experience with depth, not just getting from level to level like an arcade game, which is the very reason why I lost most of my interest in Mario all those years ago.

In Generations, the levels were fun, some of the best of the series in my book, and I will continue to praise them, but, I really felt like I had to push myself just to play through them, as there was a lack of motivation to finish. The only real motivation I had to finish the story as quick as I did, was so I could find out who the Time Eater was without being spoiled on the forum or elsewhere.

If Sonic Team made their next game with Generations' gameplay and a deeper story that draws you in, yet stays light hearted, and has higher production values, but that's just a personal nitpick, It'd be the best Sonic game ever in my opinion.

Edited November 10, 2011 by 'Ferno

[Dejablue]

I'm a story hound. It might be my individual preference. But I can play a game about a block being chased by other blocks as long as it has a good story.

[Kuzu]

Hey, I'm just satisfied to have good writing and characterization, but a story would help motivate me more.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic Team writers, just remember "complex" does not equal "dark." A story doesn't have to be grim and dreary to be deep or well-written. This is a concept I hope Sonic's writers never forget.

You're talking to writers, one of whom involved in writing for Reboot and both of them being involved in Happy Tree Friends. These guys are skilled enough to know "lighthearted" can be as deep as a "dark" plot and "dark" can be just as "shallow". They've been in their specialty for a long time to know what makes a good story.

And that's without going into the dozens of fiction that have actually pulled it off. It tells me that a lot of the Sonic fandom outside the SSMB (and even inside) are way too black and white regarding these very elements.

Edited November 10, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You're talking to writers, one of whom involved in writing for Reboot and both of them being involved in Happy Tree Friends. These guys are skilled enough to know "lighthearted" can be as deep as a "dark" plot and "dark" can be just as "shallow". They've been in their specialty for a long time to know what makes a good story.

And that's without going into the dozens of fiction that have actually pulled it off. It tells me that a lot of the Sonic fandom outside the SSMB (and even inside) are way too black and white regarding these very elements.

The only thing holding them back is Sonic Team's paralyzing fear of displeasing "certain groups", but I think they didn't fix the real problem with the story, they just simply made the pendulum swing too far in the other direction.

[Dr. Crusher]

For me, no problem at all with light stories.

I agree with Mechano in this case. If the story does happen to be unique (for Sonic anyways), then more power. But for me it's not the story itself, but what happens within. You know, characters, relationships, discussions, all that good stuff.

All in all, something akin to Pre-Adventure 2/Unleashed/Colours/Generations and the Mario RPGs is A-OK with me.

I prefer any "dark elements" to be subtle/Fridge Horror. For me, a giant monstrous demon doesn't scare me, but the implications of what happened/will happen when the bad guy did/will do *something something* does.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[Dark Qiviut]

To echo what Inferno and Mechano said, I, too, would love more thorough storytelling, too. Despite being very minimal, Generations's story is great, and that won't change. But as I repeated in other threads, it's very weak. It's easily forgettable because there isn't much to go by. Saying what dudes like Jackstraw sarcastically pointed out earlier doesn't make sense. That's fan work. We're talking about professionally produced work that can fit within the context of the game. In fanfiction, we're dictating every single move, including where we make the characters go within environments and abilities.

The video game method is much different. We have the cutscenes and then the gameplay to dictate where we go from there, followed by either another zone or cutscene. Video games have now become more about a complete package rather than just the gameplay now, which wasn't the case just only two decades ago. Sonic Generations and Colors has attempted to revert back into a more old-school-style arcade game where the gameplay becomes more important than the story. Has it worked? Well, it's a refreshing little twist, but your mileage may vary. So far, it hasn't had the best reception. Many of you have already seen my vigor regarding Sonic Colors Wii's story and polarizing characterization way too many times for me to care to count. Now, does this a bad game make? Hell, no! A weak story won't make a bad game, but it can definitely weaken the incentive to play if you choose to.

Now, do I have a problem with light stories? And by this, I mean light in content rather than light in tone. (For me, there's a big difference between "light" and "lighthearted.")

The answer is no, as long as it's well-written and of good quality.

I'm one of the people here who'll happily praise and defend Generations's story as weak, yet very well-written. And we've definitely had a really great full-fledged lighthearted story. Unleashed's story was well-written and beautifully told. What that story had over Generations was its value. SU's story isn't as easy to forget because there is a lot of content in it and the impact it had on not only the fanbase, but future games, too: Without Unleashed, we wouldn't have seen Colors and Generations with the tones they have now. The quantity isn't minimal, and each one doesn't end so fast. The very first cutscene was long but epically written, and we haven't seen anything close to it since. The scenes afterwards continue to tell the story of Sonic and Chip's adventure, and the writers twist it up with some of the best main series characterization and character development since Adventure 2.

And despite it being a spinoff, Black Knight trumped Unleashed in every regard, especially its storytelling quality, except the first cutscene.

[Chaos Warp]

I don't care for Grimdark. But at the same time I'm just in no particular hurry to finish Generations. I'm at City Escape now and yeah the levels are fun. But I literally play one level then turn the game off and go do something else. It's like nothing is really keeping me interested in playing for a long period of time.

Myself, what keeps me interested is how good the gameplay is in Generations. Sure, having a story helps, but for me, if the gameplay is good enough (which it really is in Generations), I do not need a story. Not that I condone a Generations-style story though. It really needed to be expanded upon, like explaining how classic Tails got there, why we are fighting the rivals, and such.

[Badnik Zero]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Sonic should be like Teen Titans. I've never seen the two compared but bear with me. This show was superhero fun with a core team of characters. Overall the show was silly, like I believe Sonic should stay forever. Silliness was in the surf-rock theme song and exaggerated anime expressions mixed into the otherwise standard DC superhero afternoon formula (that Batman-Superman show). The character interaction was high because the team and dorm living aspect made the characters extremely familiar with each other. Our characters should be that familiar. Robin was practically the only recognizable character in the show, but it wasn't The Robin Show starring His Shitty Friends. Likewise, draw the Sonic characters into a familiar circle and they will stop being shitty friends, they might even turn out to be pretty cool friends. Knuckles has always been loved outside the fandom. Not that I think Sonic should have that Team formula (oh god Heroes no) but each character has his arc in Teen Titans. Tails' whole out from the shadow of Sonic, becoming his own man kind of thing, what happened to that shit after the Adventure games? Remind us that these characters don't exist in a vacuum, that's what makes them alive. At the same time as being silly the show wasn't afraid to drop conflict, doubt, backstabs, mystery, villains with flair. Yeah Eggman is flamboyant, but I want more machines of destruction from him. And I know Sonic is not one to question himself but does he ever falter? More things need to go wrong. If we are going to tear shit up with Super Sonic in the final act anyways, why not make it interesting. The launch of the Death Egg. The firing of the Eclipse Cannon. Fucking success for the villain! Tails got mind-controlled in Colors. He should have stayed that way until the end. Give us a fight at least, for the story's sake. I say do not be afraid of epic plots. But don't forget the inherent humor in all things Sonic. The recent two outings have been full of attitude which is spot on, but they're not really funny. Surprise us. Maybe these guys are just warming up to the franchise and will get bolder with writing in the future. Maybe it's not even this show in particular (I just watched a lot of it in high school) but well written shows in general. As much as the new writing formula is safe, it's kind of boring to me already. Be more adventurous I guess, you Happy Tree Friends writing staff people.