Light stories and why I believe they suck

[Soniman]

And Sonic, really? Sonic's sarcasm and humor is part of his edgy attitude. He'd be pretty boring without that.

See: Unleashed

[Dr. Mechano]

With all this talk about the classic games being darker, or not at all comical, I feel I have to say this...

I think the classic games were bear-bones enough to be extremely subjective about how players felt. I didn't feel like I was playing a terribly dark story; I found Eggman's colorful robots and mustachioed Death Star to be funny, not scary. Sure, Eggman's a tough foe and a legitimate threat, but he's also a comical fellow, which in my opinion the classic games have always demonstrated. It's what sets him apart from the darker (and to me, less interesting) SatAM, which always heavily contrasted with the games. This continues nicely in the Adventure games, where the Doc's also not without his humorous quirks, despite being a threat all the same.

Eggman's wackiness is an integral part of who he is, and if all he did was declare his evil schemes without his unique comical touch, what more would there be to him to set him apart from every other villain in the Sonic franchise? I see Colors as perfectly in character to Eggman as the classic games presented him. I see it as very fitting that comedy and Dr. Eggman go hand in hand; That doesn't mean he can't also be threatening (And indeed he is), but it means that he can't be a generic blob of evil with no quirks or personality beyond his villainy. I'd be bored to tears if Eggman turned into that.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Dr. Mechano

[batson]

With all this talk about the classic games being darker, or not at all comical, I feel I have to say this...

Nobody said that the classic games weren't at all comical, just that they sure as heck weren't comical to the degree of Colors.

[Dr. Mechano]

Nobody said that the classic games weren't at all comical, just that they sure as heck weren't comical to the degree of Colors.

To that end, though, the classic games weren't as serious or dark as some of the newer games either. The classic games, lacking any dialog or cutscenes, weren't as anything as the modern games, as far as story tone goes. Modern stories are always going to be more detailed by virtue of having cutscenes and dialog, so a lighthearted story will be more lighthearted, and a darker story will be more dark.

I'll grant you the classic games weren't as zany as Colors, but they also (thankfully) weren't as dark as the likes of Shadow or 2K6 either. It's the nature of games that present stories in a fairly simplistic format to not be too much of anything.

Colors is more comical because we see more of the characters. Sonic and Tails have some amusing interactions, and we get to see clips of Eggman himself plotting and scheming in his lair. Are these needed for the story to progress? Eh, not really- But they're sure a lot of fun, and as a fan of character interaction, I think they're fantastic.

But these only exist at all due to the story being more fleshed-out than the older games were. Had the older games been given dialog too, I've little doubt they'd be similarly full of humor. It'd be hard to write a cutscene where Eggman arrives with a giant mallet which he intends to use to hit a complicated totem-pole contraption to fire arrows at Sonic (Aquatic Ruin boss)as a particularly dark or intense moment. Stuff like that was meant to be kinda goofy, and if it were voice-acted, I believe it would've been portrayed in a manner not unlike Colors was.

Did the older games get more intense and serious toward the end? Yes, absolutely. And so did Colors and Generations, which got progressively less comical and more action-packed as Sonic and Eggman threw down. Similarly even more- The classic games often ended with a happy ending for the heroes, followed by an amusing shot of an angry Eggman (Hopping on the "End" sign for example), which the recent games also took a hint from by ending with a comical Eggman scene.

The parallels between the classics and Colors/Generations are apparent to me: Overall light story, more dramatic climax, big celebration for the good guys, amusing disgruntled Eggman closing scene. It really feels like the very same structure and execution to me, albeit with the addition of voice acting to flesh it out a bit more.

[NiGHTS]

Title says it all.

Not putting anyone down or anything, just wondering why people associate sonic with having no to light story?

The one thing that I personally love about sonic is the stories. Not just for the story, but because it feels like every moment that i play as sonic, I am playing with a purpose. And it also adds the added emotional depth to each level. Something that is lacking from the new sonic games is purpose; Unleashed, generations and colors all had hub worlds that placed you in levels for the sake of it. Once you do all the worlds in the hub, youre free to fight the last boss....um....boring much?

Here's an example;

- Green forest; sonic has found himself here after escaping from metal harbour and needs to get out before it all blows up. As you play, you're on an adventure and you have purpose. You want to stop robotnik from destorying the world, clear your name from shadows wrong doing, escape so that you dont blow up, get the choas emeralds.

or

- Green forest: Sonic is here because he needs to go to 7 places to collect shit randomly. Have fun doing yet another chore level.

Remeber S3&K, best story ever besides SA1 and SA2 (personally for me i mean). You chase robotnik onto flying battery, crash into the sandopolis, follow robotnik into lava reef where you find him trying to steel the chaos emeralds from your enemy knuckles in hidden palace. Then you chase him into the sky in sky sanctuary and finally onto the epic death egg, where you beat the shit outta him in space.

THAT is PURPOSE!

Sky sancturary in generations = Another level here for the sake of it. But it's ok, as this game was intended to be a complilation. (try this neat little test: play green hill with the green forest music from SA2 next time, and pretend sonic has been thrown into the level and needs to quickly escape or its gonna blow up. Its such a thrill and way more epic)

All i'm saying is, i dont believe sonic should be light hearted on the story. His character and story has always been a part of what makes him fun and exciting. The adreneline and purpose combined with his attitude and seriousness (when its needed only). SOnic is not or close to mario. Mario has no personally, hes purely a platforming genre. No story needed for him. Sonic is more like the Batman games. He needs adventure, a freakin story and development throughout the games...(personal opinion again).

ALso, in generations, why is sonic so annoying? ("what? we actually do beat this guy everytime!") who remembers that line from generations? Way to make me feel like im actually doing something worth while sonic team

Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Its as shallow as Generations. In Sonic 3, you chase Eggman until the big finish. Generations? You want to figure out who the dark time eater is until the big finish (which sucked) but it lead you to it. The classics never had a "deep" storyline as your trying to say.

I personally have not liked Sonic's deep story's cept the Adventure titles. The storybooks? Sucked, 06, sucked. Unleashed? Hated werehog and the idea, chip ruined the story for me.

Now, I rather have a lesser story but one I can deal with, then a long sucky story. Sonic Colors and Generations brought back to me what the classics was. See alittle piece of might what happen in the storyline, then bam next level, and keep going on, instead of being interrupted by horrible story plots, like most Modern games I stated above.

[Burnt Ash]

As far as 'deep' stories go, I think they should keep it at an SA2 or a Black Knight type level.

[batson]

The parallels between the classics and Colors/Generations are apparent to me: Overall light story, more dramatic climax, big celebration for the good guys, amusing disgruntled Eggman closing scene. It really feels like the very same structure and execution to me, albeit with the addition of voice acting to flesh it out a bit more.

Well then the voice acting was what gave Colors (and, i assume, Generations) such a completely different feel compared to the classics.

Also, i really dont think there is any reason to suspect that the dialogue in the classics would have been as silly as in Colors/Generations if the games had been capale to feature voice acting. I base this mostly on the fact that the first Sonic game with dialogue, SA, was mostly rather serious with only a few jokes every now and then. And Eggman most certainly wasn't very comedic. Considering that SA was made only a few years after the last of the classics, and by mostly the same people, i believe that it probably reflects how those people viewed the Sonic universe and it's tone even during the earlier years of the franchise. And remeber; this is a japanese series we are talking about. The japanese seem to be used to having absolutely ridiculus concpets (such as, say, a blue hedgehog fighting an egg-shaped scientist) and playing it straight.

Edited November 8, 2011 by batson

[Ferno]

See: Unleashed

Ok. *see's Unleashed*

"Well, this is new. Showing remorse, Eggman? If you played nice, I wouldn't have to break all your toys."

"Yo Eggman, thanks for that little sky diving adventure the other day!"

It's still there, just not at the forefront of every single scene he's in. (and not as well written.) He actually seems a little more down to earth at times too, displaying a wider range of emotions than just "the funny guy" practically every single second he's on screen. (I know I'm exaggerating here, don't even jump on that last sentence >_>)

Edited November 9, 2011 by 'Ferno

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Exactly.

Heh, it sure is a nice change of pace that you and i appear to agree completely on something.

Well, I am a fan of the Classics, you know.

[Dr. Mechano]

And Eggman most certainly wasn't very comedic.

The Egg Carrier would like to have a word with you.

Eggman owns a swimming pool with little Eggman emblem-emblazoned umbrellas. His ship is kept clean by maid-bots in froofy dresses. His room has little springy toy Eggmobiles in it.

Yes, his plan may have been to destroy a city, but it was also to build Eggman Land on top of it, which I have no doubt was intended to be every bit as crazy as Unleashed eventually revealed to us. The name of the city alone reflects Eggman's wacky nature.

Next game, in SA2, Eggman's pyramid base is even more decked-out with ridiculous egotism. Sphinx statues, murals, and other ancient Egyptian art bearing Eggman's toothy mug adorned the base. The doctor unceremoniously scratching his butt as he watched the news certainly betrayed any sense of "Dignified villain" the audience might've picked up on too. And yet, at the same time, Eggman was unquestionably badass in SA2- Bursting into military bases and taking on GUN's forces all by himself, not even needing his robot army for backup. There was no doubt that Eggman was a force to be reckoned with, but he was certainly still comedic by his very nature.

And of course between those two was Sonic Shuffle, featuring Eggman running around in goofy disguises to steal your items/rings, or occasionally give you prizes. Which in hindsight is far sillier than anything the Colors writers had him do.

The Adventure games beautifully balanced Eggman- He was hilarious, but also a capable evil genius. I think Colors certainly plays up the comical side more than SA and SA2 did, but that comical side was always there, and is one of the things that made me a fan in the first place.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Dr. Mechano

[Dark Qiviut]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Its as shallow as Generations. In Sonic 3, you chase Eggman until the big finish. Generations? You want to figure out who the dark time eater is until the big finish (which sucked) but it lead you to it. The classics never had a "deep" storyline as your trying to say.

S3&K's story is nowhere close to being very shallow when you pick it apart. That game actually had a really deep story and was about as serious as Adventure 2. Examples of its seriousness being:

1. Eggman setting the beach on fire.

2. Knuckles sending Sonic and Tails into a long freefall into the murky Hydrocity waters below.

3. Sonic and Tails's entrance into the Sandopolis where all the ghosts and eerie music come alive, pun intended, to scare the hell out of 'em.

4. Knuckles punching a boulder to send Sonic and Tails down into the deep sections of Lava Reef below.

5. Eggman electrocuting Knuckles!

6. Eggman's Death Egg launching over the clouds in Sky Sanctuary.

7. The main bosses in Death Egg attempting to squash and then vaporize Sonic using Knuckles's Master Emerald.

8. The final chase in Doomsday.

Don't let the pretty graphics fool you. S3&K had a very well-told serious story that, without dialogue and within the technology limitations, was able to develop the now main Classic trio.

The storybooks? Sucked,

Secret Rings and Black Knight did NOT have bad stories. They were very well-written and were full of rich characterization. Sonic's characterization in both games, especially Black Knight, peaked here with three-dimensionality and plausibility. The dialogue between Sonic and Caliburn was absolutely rich in character, and it was plausible. Shahra and Sonic had fantastic chemistry that fit within the realm of Sonic's characterization and eventually Erazor's lust for recognition.

06, sucked.

SNG's story sucks because it wasn't well-told. Like the gameplay itself, it wasn't as well-thought out as hoped. Sonic Team tried to weave way too many ideas at once, leaving huge gaps in three-dimensional characterization, tone shifts, and pace. If they filled in those gaps, then the story at least could've made logical sense.

Unleashed? Hated werehog and the idea, chip ruined the story for me.

Hating a concept =/= not having a good story. The Werehog concept may be silly, but Sonic, Eggman, Orbot, Professor Pickle, Amy, Chip, and Tails (to a lesser extent) were well-developed, and many of them grew into even more engaging characters as the story progressed.

Now, I rather have a lesser story but one I can deal with, then a long sucky story. Sonic Colors and Generations brought back to me what the classics was. See alittle piece of might what happen in the storyline, then bam next level, and keep going on, instead of being interrupted by horrible story plots, like most Modern games I stated above.

No, what we really need is a greatly written plot that can meld with the great games in order to create the ultimate package. Many of the Sonic games with great stories didn't have the best reception. The great Sonic games as of late have had weaker stories, although Generations had well-written characterization throughout. Sonic Team needs to develop a great plot that we can watch, relate, and experience personally and insert them into the great games.

And Sonic CD's story is subtle but VERY deep. Thank the differences of the past, present, and both future scenarios for this.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Its as shallow as Generations. In Sonic 3, you chase Eggman until the big finish. Generations? You want to figure out who the dark time eater is until the big finish (which sucked) but it lead you to it. The classics never had a "deep" storyline as your trying to say.

Funny, cause Me and some fellow classic fans beg to differ. What the game lacked was dialogue and cutscenes, but the one thing people never even take into consideration was the freaking date the classics were released: back in the early 90s, when plots were hardly even a huge part of video games outside of RPGs.

The storybooks? Sucked,

I'd say the gameplay did, but not the story. Especially when it comes to Black Knight. They pulled a good twist that they haven't done well since the Adventures.

06, sucked.

Oh, yeah. Hardly anyone will disagree there.

Unleashed? Hated werehog and the idea, chip ruined the story for me.

I'm amused at the number of people who scapegoat Chip as a reason for Unleashed's plot failing.

That and what DQ said.

Now, I rather have a lesser story but one I can deal with, then a long sucky story. Sonic Colors and Generations brought back to me what the classics was. See alittle piece of might what happen in the storyline, then bam next level, and keep going on, instead of being interrupted by horrible story plots, like most Modern games I stated above.

Well if you're tired of horrible story plots as you call them, there is this thing called the skip button that's been there since day one so you can get straight to the action.

Hardly any video game in this day and age goes without it, with some RPGs being an exception, so complaining about being interrupted by them is just cherry-picking for excuses to criticize the game. If the plot is bad, by all means call out where it falls short, but if it's because it's interrupting you from progressing through the level, then apparently people need to relearn a few basics on how get pass that interruption.

Edited November 9, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Burnt Ash]

Black Knight:

This is probably the best 'deep' story since SA2. You lose most of the melodrama, poor characterization (think, Sonic 2006), and you have the serious/comical aspect of the plot that's been missing since before Unleashed. The only con to the whole story would be the lack of Eggman...although representing him in King Arthur's world would be somewhat difficult. SatBK does have a light side to it, and it makes the story much more enjoyable.

SNG:

There's not much to be said here. The only decent parts to it was Sonic's first line in his story, and most of Shadow's story. Sonic's would be immensely better if there was more of a light tone to it, and Silver's would be better if it wasn't so boring.

[Chaos Warp]

Black Knight:

This is probably the best 'deep' story since SA2. You lose most of the melodrama, poor characterization (think, Sonic 2006), and you have the serious/comical aspect of the plot that's been missing since before Unleashed. The only con to the whole story would be the lack of Eggman...although representing him in King Arthur's world would be somewhat difficult. SatBK does have a light side to it, and it makes the story much more enjoyable.

This so much, even though I don't mind simple plots. It had a good balance of light-heated/comical, and serious. Also, it had good characterization, lack of melodrama, basically everything you said. I think all other Sonic plots should follow the general example of Black Knight (not the knights and stuff, but how it was executed), for all the reasons above.

[Mangoaxe5]

I think it's clear that Sega does not know what to do with the Sonic storyline.

Sonic Adventure 2 was popular when it came out. And I think that they tried to top SA2 with both Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006.

I actually like the story to Shadow the Hedgehog and I actually find the game fun to play.

My problem with the story to Shadow's game is the fact that most of the story path's are non-canon.

Sonic 2006 on the other hand is a fucking mess.

Sonic's story in that game is pretty unimportant in the larger picture.

Shadow's storyline is probably the best thing about Sonic 06 story.

Sonic 06 is also when things go downhill for the Sonic game canon. And things start to get confusing.

1. Blaze's story gets screwed up.

2. Elise has the Blue Chaos Emerald. So how did Sonic go super in all the past games?

3. Why does Mephiles go through all this crap when he could have just fused with the Iblis in Silver's timeline?

Now with the new games Sega is clearly going in the other direction.

I think it's clear that Sonic Colors was made to try to appeal to the people who think that Sonic doesn't need a story.

Hopefully with time Sega will find a balance to please everyone(which will never happen with this fanbase).

Edited November 9, 2011 by Darkfox

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Like I've said before: Sonic Team needs to focus less on the tone of the story and just let the story flow naturally regardless where it goes...as long as they avoid flanderization and excessive melodrama that is.

[NiGHTS]

Hardly any video game in this day and age goes without it, with some RPGs being an exception, so complaining about being interrupted by them is just cherry-picking for excuses to criticize the game. If the plot is bad, by all means call out where it falls short, but if it's because it's interrupting you from progressing through the level, then apparently people need to relearn a few basics on how get pass that interruption.

Well in the end, it made Sega take out much of the dense storylines compared to the previous game. Skip the storyline? Why "just" play the game and not know whats going on? Yea that seems fun : / but after the fans rambled, Sega had no choice but do what they had to do for Colors and Generations, and cut out alot of the nonsense they did before.

[Dr. Mechano]

My problem with the story to Shadow's game is the fact that most of the story path's are non-canon.

The fact that those story paths are non-canon may be the game's saving grace, since most of the endings to that game would spell horrible things for the series if they became permanent (Eggman dying, the world being blown to smithereens, Shadow joining Black Doom or becoming a weird hermit on the ARK, etc.).

Personally, my feelings for Shadow are basically how you feel about Colors/Generations. I don't mind dark, but in my view Shadow the Hedgehog went way overboard with its grimdark portrayal of the Sonic series, becoming this strange un-Sonic story, I dare say. I consider SA2, which was still idealistic and positive, to be good darkness in a Sonic game, while Shadow's over-focus on being grim, edgy, and supposedly "shocking" is an example of bad darkness in the series- It was overdone and felt kinda forced.

Honestly, I think Shadow the Hedgehog was trying so hard to be "mature" that it comes across as incredibly immature. Giving Sonic characters guns, and having them awkwardly drop mild curse words in bizarre contexts (Not unlike a child awkwardly swearing to look bad for his friends), and creating a villain named Black Doom (Black Doom!) really seems like it was intended to appeal to younger audiences, not older ones. I say this because kids and preteens generally seem far more preoccupied with being perceived as "mature" or "badass" than actual adults do. Older fans are often less bothered by so-called "childish" elements, and can more readily appreciate a well-written story, regardless of how lighthearted or dark it is, preferring to focus on good characterization rather than darkness for its own sake.

I'm not arguing darkness is bad or undesirable. SA2 was fantastic and I loved it, because it was decently-written and portrays its entire cast in a realistic and sympathetic light- even Dr. Eggman himself. Shadow the Hedgehog has little going for it aside from a very contrived attempt to appear edgy and angry, and I feel the game proper just doesn't have a lot of substance. Its problem isn't darkness, its problem is being written by people who are really unskilled at writing darkness.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well in the end, it made Sega take out much of the dense storylines compared to the previous game.

And yet they never even addressed the issue with their quality in the first place.

Skip the storyline? Why "just" play the game and not know whats going on? Yea that seems fun : /

Because apparently the longer sucky plots seem to interrupt the game whenever you want to get to the action quicker. Or is that not what you meant in your previous post?

but after the fans rambled, Sega had no choice but do what they had to do for Colors and Generations, and cut out alot of the nonsense they did before.

Or they could've actually put some quality effort into them? Did it not once occur to you that the quality was why plots like Sonic 06 sucked complete ass? Not to mention that not all of the fans rambled about the same thing regarding plots, so Sega had much more of a choice than you make it out to be.

Edited November 9, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

So you guys actually like the new sonic that doesnt give a fuck anymore about anything. He just does it for shits and giggles. Yeah, some hero...

Have you actually been playing these games lately? Starting at Sonic 4, if your name is not Time Eater, then Sonic's curb stomped your ass into nothing with extremely little effort. Generations just takes the cake. All three of the Rival characters, who have all been known to be extremely tough battles for Sonic got punt kicked, ram killed, and bull dozed by a pile of junk, in that order!

In short, why SHOULD he give a damn anymore? He's arguably become a Gary Stu, and I think he's actually well aware of it.

[Sami]

Let's play a game.

• Imagine you're arguably the most skilled fighter on the planet and haven't lost a battle in ages.
  
• Imagine you're usually a care-free, sarcastic, comedic braggart.
  
• Imagine someone who you've kicked the shit out of several dozens of times (and haven't lost to once) comes up and tries to pick a fight with you.
  

What do you do?

[VO.SUPER]

The fault I found in 06's story is that the story had very little in the progression. Almost none of the stories aside from Shadow's meant jack in the long run. There is no real connectivity, which thus breaks the immersion (aside from the terrible controls.) The characters were dull and lifeless to match their models. The emotion was lost in the sheer illogical nature of the storyline as well. We're supposed to connect to these characters whom don't share enough human qualities to interest us. At the same time, they lack logic in a lot of their actions. Being that it's human nature to focus on the negative uncanny valley, we find ourselves focusing on that a lot in Sonic '06's story.

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Let's play a game.

• Imagine you're arguably the most skilled fighter on the planet and haven't lost a battle in ages.
  
• Imagine you're usually a care-free, sarcastic, comedic braggart.
  
• Imagine someone who you've kicked the shit out of several dozens of times (and haven't lost to once) comes up and tries to pick a fight with you.
  
  What do you do?
  

• Become someone who's more skilled(equal at best to your speed and strength at best) at fighting than you and also hasn't been defeated by anyone.
  Give him a reality check by beating the loser in to them if not outclass them not only in skills but have greater skill in something that they can do normally.
  Tell him he was being generous and holding back for the challenge of it and were not even trying to fight at full power which would have killed him easy.
  

Edited November 10, 2011 by Chaos Nightmare Moon

[Blazey Firekitty]

Are we really sure there's no real danger left in Sonic's adventures? Wouldn't he have died in space after Eggman's park exploded if the Wisps hadn't saved him?

[Kuzu]

• Become someone who's more skilled(equal at best to your speed and strength at best) at fighting than you and also hasn't been defeated by anyone.
  
• Give him a reality check by beating the loser in to them if not outclass them not only in skills but have greater skill in something that they can do normally.
  
• Tell him he was being generous and holding back for the challenge of it and were not even trying to fight at full power which would have killed him easy.
  

Let's assume this guy is also the main character in a fictional story.