Light stories and why I believe they suck

[Carbo]

Shadow the Hedgehog is proof of that =P

Pretty much.

And no, Shadow isn't a mary sue, he is slowly become a worf and vegeta.

I wasn't talking about Shadow. I was talking about Sonic in that game.

[Indigo Rush]

Flaws don't make a character better, sometimes it's better to be the perfect person.

This is... simply not true.

Look into every great character in almost all mediums.

Every single one.

They all have flaws, they have discords, and they have weaknesses. If a character has no personality flaws, that denotes them to robot status. I'm sorry, but I can't conceive of a character with no flaws in their personality.

What about Link or Mario, then? The problem is that they've been established as silent avatars for you to play as. Their personality is something for you to fill in the blanks with. Sonic however doesn't leave this open to us; since day one he's been the "blue dude with the 'tude." Full of snark, full of ego, but still full of optimism and cheese to balance it out.

Sorry, but I can't accept characters like Sonic being "perfect," and I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that flaws only make a character worse. I have to wonder if you've read any books or watched any films before. For the sake of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume that you have, but you aren't instilling much confidence for that.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Inferno Rush

[Gamenerd]

I'm gonna have to echo Inferno's sentiments - perfect characters aren't interesting. However, a character that appears perfect at first sight but has fundamental flaws? That normally makes something significantly more interesting. Take the Doctor, from Doctor Who; sure, he's a cool guy, but he becomes that much more interesting as a character when you see his hidden, manipulative side and his survivors guilt from killing his entire race. A 'perfect' character is never perfect, and that's true of pretty much any storytelling medium.

[Sparky]

The thing that bothers me is that Sonic Team seems to think it was the plot we hated in Sonic games, when in reality, it was the poor execution of the plot. Sonic Adventure had all the makings of a good plot, but it was pulled off so awfully that people didn't notice.

That's what I'd like to see in a plot. Plenty of character interaction, actual plot motivation to go through levels, and some expansion of the Sonic lore. Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Knuckles were all sort of linked. Sonic CD and Chaotix both linked loosely to these. After that, Sonic Adventure came along and expanded the lore of Angel Island and the Echidnas, Sonic Adventure 2 expanded the background of the Robotnik family tree, Sonic Heroes was a neat little sidequest and Shadow expanded everything that Sonic Adventure 2 started. Even Sonic Battle and the handheld games were loosely linked via the Gizoid plotline, which tied to both Gerald and the Echidnas. After that though, we got Sonic 2006 which completely ignored most previous plot threads, and since then there hasn't been a whole lot of lore and backstory of Sonic's world to speak of, apart from the confusing mess that is the Blaze/Silver/Nega/Solaris conundrum. Sure, there's a bit of light continuity between Colours and Generations, but nothing particularly interesting to speak of.

The new writers haven't yet been given the chance to take the Sonic plotline in new directions. I'm not saying they should ruin another characters backstory like Shadow's was (and arguably Knuckles in Chronicles), but there are some things I'd like to see in Sonic games from now on. I'd like to see more of what the characters are like outside of the whole saving-the-world stuff, I'd like to see more clever explanations like how Classic Sonic learned homing attack from Modern Sonic, and I'd like to see more indepth explanations for things that have been in the series since forever; for example, what exactly are Rings? Where do they come from? 'The Special Zone'? Because that hasn't seen much elaboration either. Basically, the world of Sonic hasn't felt very coherent and connected since Sonic 2006 came along, and I'd like to see that come back a little bit.

Heres a Theory: Sonic got green eyes from being around the Chaos Emeralds and Rings so much (Same with Tails blue eyes and Knuckles violet eyes) and the Green eyes allowed Sonic to see or sense his Enemies energy signature, Which he can then Zero in on. THats how he learned the Homing Attack!

[Gamenerd]

Heres a Theory: Sonic got green eyes from being around the Chaos Emeralds and Rings so much (Same with Tails blue eyes and Knuckles violet eyes) and the Green eyes allowed Sonic to see or sense his Enemies energy signature, Which he can then Zero in on. THats how he learned the Homing Attack!

No, it's already been explained by Generations.

Classic Sonic learns a basic air dash from watching Modern Sonic do it at the end of the game, which will presumably develop into a full-blown homing attack between the end of Generations for Classic Sonic and the start of Sonic 4. Thus, Sonic learns it from himself, just like Classic Eggman seemingly adopts the 'Eggman' name after hearing his future self using it.

I was simply saying I'd like to see more clever little quirks like that.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Gamenerd

[Dr. Mechano]

You cannot say Generations "has no story" or that "its story is nonexistent." That is clearly false, as Generations does have a story. Its story is already a little more complex than the classic games by virtue of there being any dialog at all, not to mention it having a brilliant twist.

It is objectively incorrect to declare that Generations had no plot. It did, and in my opinion it was a good one.

[C.J]

Colors' story was short and simple but Generations was even easier the story lacked for both games there was something missing I really thought that both games would of offered more into the plot it just didn't feel right

I don't want a story that's too short and sweet I want a story which is serious with a mixture of humor, action and thrill not too much of it but a nice addition blend in of all. Maybe The tone other past games had like SA1, SA2, BK, Unleashed it doesn't need to be long just also show more of the character's personalities if they are playable in future games, there was more interactions, powerful and emotional scenes plus unique and special sides to each of the characters, different and special sides we'd never expect them to have perhaps even darker like Shadow had in SA2 a bleak and horrifying past or another one which is slightly less bleak and more different. I'd like these be brought back in future Sonic games, they fit with the plot well, other characters should be included too with their own storylines but at a right balance...

[Marcello]

No, it's already been explained by Generations.

Classic Sonic learns a basic air dash from watching Modern Sonic do it at the end of the game, which will presumably develop into a full-blown homing attack between the end of Generations for Classic Sonic and the start of Sonic 4. Thus, Sonic learns it from himself, just like Classic Eggman seemingly adopts the 'Eggman' name after hearing his future self using it.

I was simply saying I'd like to see more clever little quirks like that.

It was actually the boost. He was trying to copy Modern from before when he got the Chaos Emerald

[Gamenerd]

It was actually the boost. He was trying to copy Modern from before when he got the Chaos Emerald

Oh? That's a tad disappointing, I thought they were making an actual conscious effort to explain how Sonic got the homing attack between Sonic 3K and Sonic 4, given that the boost wasn't a factor in the series until much later on. I suppose either way it's a variant on dashing through the air (it looks more like an air dash than an air boost?).

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

I'm gonna have to echo Inferno's sentiments - perfect characters aren't interesting. However, a character that appears perfect at first sight but has fundamental flaws? That normally makes something significantly more interesting. Take the Doctor, from Doctor Who; sure, he's a cool guy, but he becomes that much more interesting as a character when you see his hidden, manipulative side and his survivors guilt from killing his entire race. A 'perfect' character is never perfect, and that's true of pretty much any storytelling medium.

I don't see the difference, at the end of the day, they are pretty much the best of the best and are greater than everyone. So what if they got a few personality flaws, they can still do things that make them better and more flawless than other people.

Like Superman for example. Sure he's got a flaw of being to caring and naive, but does mean he can't solo any one in his universe.

[Scar]

I don't see the difference, at the end of the day, they are pretty much the best of the best and are greater than everyone. So what if they got a few personality flaws, they can still do things that make them better and more flawless than other people.

Like Superman for example. Sure he's got a flaw of being to caring and naive, but does mean he can't solo any one in his universe.

Sonic is infallible. That is why he's the main character in a series where you play as him. However, having a flawed personality is something else entirely. Sonic, as a character would be better with flaws. Character flaws are what makes him more believable as a personality.

As for Sonic not being serious at the end of the game. Well, he wasn't, just like he wasn't in SA2 when Eggman was holding Amy at gunpoint and said "You're turning into a big time villain doctor" in perhaps the most sarchastic way Drummond could muster.

Then in Generations, Sonic's smugness was immediately wiped off when he and his younger self were literally stomped into the ground by Time Eater. Similarly, Sonic's smugness in SA2 was wiped away when he was trapped in the pod and sent out to his death.

Sonic is a cocky, almost foolhardy character. He's always been that way.

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Sonic is infallible. That is why he's the main character in a series where you play as him. However, having a flawed personality is something else entirely. Sonic, as a character would be better with flaws. Character flaws are what makes him more believable as a personality.

As for Sonic not being serious at the end of the game. Well, he wasn't, just like he wasn't in SA2 when Eggman was holding Amy at gunpoint and said "You're turning into a big time villain doctor" in perhaps the most sarchastic way Drummond could muster.

Then in Generations, Sonic's smugness was immediately wiped off when he and his younger self were literally stomped into the ground by Time Eater. Similarly, Sonic's smugness in SA2 was wiped away when he was trapped in the pod and sent out to his death.

Sonic is a cocky, almost foolhardy character. He's always been that way.

I don't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

Sonic is just a simple character, like Mario, we know he's going to win even if the bad guy gets a good lick on him and he's down for the count.

Flaw wise, he's the typical action hero with a attitude. But still can beat gods and ultimate lifeforms

[Indigo Rush]

I don't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

So, you're saying that cockiness is not a believable trait? We just invented it? And that makes him more flawless?

...?

[Flyboy Fox]

I don't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

Wait, what? Cockiness is not a human trait? People can't relate to it? That's complete nonsense. I know plenty of cocky foolhardy people and they all seem pretty human to me. As for saying that no one is that cocky and foolhardy in real life... well... if you're looking for characters with no exaggerated traits who act exactly like people in real life would, I think you're looking in the wrong place. If Sonic reacted to everything he's up against the way one of us would, he'd pee his (proverbial) pants and run off into hiding and there'd be no game.

Sonic is just a simple character, like Mario, we know he's going to win even if the bad guy gets a good lick on him and he's down for the count.

Of course he's going to win in the end. He's the character we play as. It would kind of suck if he couldn't win! But he's been beaten down before, been tricked, been knocked down a peg. Unleashed's very opening showed that he sometimes takes his wins for granted and therefore can be caught off guard. He's not flawless by a long-shot.

Flaw wise, he's the typical action hero with a attitude. But still can beat gods and ultimate lifeforms

Again, if he couldn't eventually beat the final boss/MoTW... how would one complete the game? It does take him a whole game to do it, mind you! It's not like he just wipes the floor with them on the very first encounter, because that wouldn't make for much of a game either~!

[Kuzu]

Ugh, CNM, makes my head hurt.

[Scar]

I don't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

What? Of course there are people who are just as foolhardy and cocky in the real world. People who partake in extreme sports are most certainly foodhardy (there is a reason its called extreme) and there certainly isn't a shortage of cocky individuals.

Sonic is just a simple character, like Mario, we know he's going to win even if the bad guy gets a good lick on him and he's down for the count.

Haha, Sonic isn't like Mario. Sonic both Sonic and Mario have received excellent characterisation (For Mario, this is in the Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi games and not in the main series), both are also extremely different characters. Even in terms of platformers they are hardly comparable as both set out to acheive vastly different things with their gameplay.

Also, most central characters in video games are undefeatable. Name a main [playable] protagonist from a video game with the exception of Sgt. Paul Jackson, that has been killed off of permanently defeated (even then Paul Jackson is hardly the main character)

Flaw wise, he's the typical action hero with a attitude. But still can beat gods and ultimate lifeforms

As are most fictitious characters.

[Kuzu]

I don't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

Bull. Shit. Every child between the age of 13-19 is cocky in their own way, when you're an adolencent, you think you can take on the entire world, which is what Sonic is, he's 15, but him being cocky isn't believable?

Sonic is just a simple character, like Mario, we know he's going to win even if the bad guy gets a good lick on him and he's down for the count.

Flaw wise, he's the typical action hero with a attitude. But still can beat gods and ultimate lifeforms

So how does him becoming this angst ridden whiner, make him better? That's no more bland than what you're trying to describe him as.

[Voyant]

Idon't see how that is believeable, no one is as cocky and foolhardy in real life, and you can'y relate to him. At best, his cockiness and free spirited nature just adds to his flawlessness since he has no human or intricate flaws we can relate to.

I am extremely free spirited...and even in the darkest of moments I tend to try to remain optimistic in order to persevere through problems. I tend to crack jokes to shed light on the darkness of a situation.

I guess I'm not human right? Sonic is my favorite character because despite him being extreme in some instances our personalities are similar.

Shadow is a lot easier to relate though I agree....because these days the world is full of sad people with issues. Especially Teen Agers..which Shadow was pretty much designed for to appeal to back in the late 2001 when "

emo" was on the rise and all people wanted to listen to was Linkin Park.

Edited November 8, 2011 by V0YANT

[Kuzu]

I am extremely free spirited...and even in the darkest of moments I tend to try to remain optimistic in order to persevere through problems. I tend to crack jokes to shed light on the darkness of a situation.

I guess I'm not human right? Sonic is my favorite character because despite him being extreme in some instances our personalities are similar.

Shadow is a lot easier to relate though I agree....because these days the world is full of sad people with issues. Especially Teen Agers..which Shadow was pretty much designed for to appeal to back in the late 2001 when "

emo" was on the rise and all people wanted to listen to was Linkin Park.

[Voyant]

I find Sonic a lot more easier to relate to, to be honest. I understand Shadow has gone through some tough shit, but I don't its natural for a guy to be so gloomy all of the time; I've gone through some tough shit, but I always bounce back.

Edited November 8, 2011 by V0YANT

[Gamenerd]

Of course, if SEGA grew a pair about it, they could try addressing the whole 'Sonic as a flawless hero' aspect properly in a plotline. After all, the current writers clearly seem to be aware of it - in Colours and Generations they can't stop mentioning how Eggman never wins and has failed numerous times, as well as how Sonic 'always wins', his friends all believe in him (see: pre-Time Eater cutscene) and how he spends most of his days stopping Eggman "like it's [his] job or something".

If they were telling the truth about trying to link each game more strongly, then maybe, after a few more mentions, this aspect of Sonic could be explored further? Maybe in the next game, Eggman could finally achieve some form of victory (even if technically the player wins, Eggman shouldn't come off with a complete loss for once), or at the very least, he could somehow use Sonic's cockiness against him in and break the faith of some of his friends - it'd be nice for Eggman to have a little bit of victory, for Sonic to lose some of his cockiness and for his friends to lose some faith in his all-powerful abilities. It could be a small character arc of sorts, with him slowly regaining that cockiness/confidence and the trust of his friends after getting knocked down more thoroughly than ever before, or being put in a morally ambiguous situation where there is no 'winning' outcome. I'm just throwing about ideas here, but it'd be interesting at least. He does say in Black Knight that he's alright with not always being the hero, so I think he'd happily take a hit to his ego and his in-universe 'fanbase' for the sake of the moral victory.

[Voyant]

To be honest Sonic will never reach his true potential plot or gameplay wise unless Sonic Team grows a pair again and start doing what the fuck they want to do.

The past 3 years all they have been doing is trying to apologize for their misdeeds...

We get it now SEGA...now stop saying sorry and start making games again.

Edited November 8, 2011 by V0YANT

[Dr. Mechano]

We get it now SEGA...now stop saying sorry and start making games again.

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Of course, if SEGA grew a pair about it, they could try addressing the whole 'Sonic as a flawless hero' aspect properly in a plotline. After all, the current writers clearly seem to be aware of it - in Colours and Generations they can't stop mentioning how Eggman never wins and has failed numerous times, as well as how Sonic 'always wins', his friends all believe in him (see: pre-Time Eater cutscene) and how he spends most of his days stopping Eggman "like it's [his] job or something".

If they were telling the truth about trying to link each game more strongly, then maybe, after a few more mentions, this aspect of Sonic could be explored further? Maybe in the next game, Eggman could finally achieve some form of victory (even if technically the player wins, Eggman shouldn't come off with a complete loss for once), or at the very least, he could somehow use Sonic's cockiness against him in and break the faith of some of his friends - it'd be nice for Eggman to have a little bit of victory, for Sonic to lose some of his cockiness and for his friends to lose some faith in his all-powerful abilities. It could be a small character arc of sorts, with him slowly regaining that cockiness/confidence and the trust of his friends after getting knocked down more thoroughly than ever before, or being put in a morally ambiguous situation where there is no 'winning' outcome. I'm just throwing about ideas here, but it'd be interesting at least. He does say in Black Knight that he's alright with not always being the hero, so I think he'd happily take a hit to his ego and his in-universe 'fanbase' for the sake of the moral victory.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Chaos Nightmare Moon

[Voyant]

What I mean is stop playing it so safe...

It saddens me when Sonic Team...with every game since Unleashed have always missed the mark by one...personally thinking that they are trying to be inoffensive as possible to put Sonic back in good terms...which to be honest I can understand...sometimes you need to take a step back to reestablish yourself.

Colors and Generations have done this already, Generations even more so...and I have a short fuse of how many "safe" products I get before I get steamed as to why ST isn't striving for more at full potential. The series now lacks a major component that has always made Sonic interesting from the get go and that is "epic" which seemed to just disappear just as fast as the Werehog did after Unleashed.

Edited November 8, 2011 by V0YANT