Light stories and why I believe they suck

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

What they need to do is make a SA3. And who wrote that story the main writer for Sonic games.

[DarkLight]

What they need to do is make a SA3. And who wrote that story the main writer for Sonic games.

[Dr. Mechano]

Colors and Generations have done this already, Generations even more so...and I have a short fuse of how many "safe" products I get before I get steamed as to why ST isn't striving for more at full potential. The series now lacks a major component that has always made Sonic interesting from the get go and that is "epic" which seemed to just disappear just as fast as the Werehog did after Unleashed.

[midori]

Sonic 2 for GG had IMO the best juxtaposition of light-heartedness and seriousness ever (excluding newer games like Adventure, lol).

Your main motive is saving Sonic's best buddy, who got kidnapped by Robotnik. That's a kinda light-hearted story. You don't have to save the world from any aliens, gods or whatever; only a little fox and other animals from being turned into robots. When it appears that the situation gets dire, i.e. Sonic's apparently falling to his doom into a pit of lava, he gets saved by Robotnik himself. The story stays similar to normal stories for children. That is, until you fail to finish your task (because the game is too damn hard) and this sad music starts playing... and it's hinted that Tails was killed.

I don't think it's possible to make a really good light story, because... true art simply needs some drama. If the story hardly takes itself seriously, like in Colors or Generations, I just don't feel motivated enough to complete the task. 8-bit S2 subtly shows the results of your failure and it makes you try harder to earn your happy ending. I think such bittersweet stories are the most fitting for games.

[Kuzu]

What they need to do is make a SA3. And who wrote that story the main writer for Sonic games.

[Dr. Mechano]

No, they don't. I'm not going to argue this, there is no reason to make an Sa3, its that simple.

[Indigo Rush]

What they need to do is make a SA3. And who wrote that story the main writer for Sonic games.

[Kuzu]

I would argue that 2K6 was SA3 in all but name. It didn't really live up to the quality of the first two Adventure games, but it was still the "Adventure" formula to a tee.

He's talking more about story execution, and really looking back, the Adventure series had a lot of translation issues when coming to America.

[Flyboy Fox]

This, don't need to reply to every other post. At best Sonic plots can at least have an explained series of events in the story that tells us why he's this strong and can never be simply defeated even by overpowered deities and twin clone hedgehogs with chaos energy hax.

Not just because he's the hero and he's simply the main character.

Several games have given us insight into that. He wins because he can use the power of the chaos emeralds, has the right attitude, has the power of friendship and teamwork on his side, and is endowed with a very useful speed running skill. Different games highlight different aspects of his strengths. The storybook games, for example, played on his strength of character, striving to do the right thing and working out the best thing to do when supposed allies turned on him. Generations showed the strength he gains from having his friends believe in him. So on and so forth.

Being cocky and light hearted is just a default trait writers use to justify overpowering thier heroes instead of writing them well enough for people to be understand them.

I'm having a little trouble "to be understand you" myself =P Sorry. Sorry.

[Ferno]

I'm not sure what you're asking for.

"Epic" is subjective. One person's boooo-ring is another person's Awesome, and I think we see Colors/Generations very differently. As an Eggman fan in particular, these two games are amazing from my perspective, and I'm not sure how they're "playing it safe" at all, considering they're really branching out from their formulaic approach of "Eggman unleashes giant monster, monster betrays him and becomes the real villain" like they did consistently for ten years with virtually no variation, as far as the home console games went. The fact that they broke from that formula, to me, feels like the opposite of "playing it safe." They tried something different, even if it was simultaneously a return to form. It was, to me, just as exciting and "epic" as you claim it isn't.

From an Eggman perspective their great because Eggman's doing different stuff, but from a Sonic perspective is where Voyant is coming from here, I kinda got that when I read it.

Why can't Eggman still be the final boss, with excellent writing and all that other stuff you mentioned, but with all the trimmings of a huge adventure on the scale of Unleashed in tone?

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Several games have given us insight into that. He wins because he can use the power of the chaos emeralds, has the right attitude, has the power of friendship and teamwork on his side, and is endowed with a very useful speed running skill. Different games highlight different aspects of his strengths. The storybook games, for example, played on his strength of character, striving to do the right thing and working out the best thing to do when supposed allies turned on him. Generations showed the strength he gains from having his friends believe in him. So on and so forth.

I'm having a little trouble "to be understand you" myself =P Sorry. Sorry.

Thaks for proving Sonic is a cookie cutter hero and a bland piece of trash main hero.

[Ferno]

Thaks for proving Sonic is a cookie cutter hero and a bland piece of trash main hero.

Edited November 8, 2011 by 'Ferno

[Indigo Rush]

Thaks for proving Sonic is a cookie cutter hero and a bland piece of trash main hero.

[Dr. Mechano]

Why can't Eggman still be the final boss, with excellent writing and all that other stuff you mentioned, but with all the trimmings of a huge adventure on the scale of Unleashed in tone?

Edited November 8, 2011 by Dr. Mechano

[Flyboy Fox]

Thaks for proving Sonic is a cookie cutter hero and a bland piece of trash main hero.

[Scar]

Thaks for proving Sonic is a cookie cutter hero and a bland piece of trash main hero.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Scar

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not sure exactly where our opinions diverge on this, since it really looks like these two games have exactly what you're asking for.

Intensity. That's basically what Colors and Generations lacked in their plots, and what Unleashed had over the two.

I think that's where your opinions may diverge, because while Colors and Generations had what he was asking for, it's missing/lacking the one element that really sets the difference in scale.

[Ferno]

I'm not sure exactly where our opinions diverge on this, since it really looks like these two games have exactly what you're asking for.

I understand that Eggman in Colors is causing the genocide of all the aliens in Colors and he's trying to brainwash the world, and in Generations, I understand that the guy ripped the very fabric of time and space apart, people are always quick to tell me this all the time, but like, what I mean is, I don't really "feel" that these terrible things happened to the extent that they did, because it all seems downplayed in a way. I don't know how to describe it, but I feel like these things aren't really touched upon enough for me to care, that, and the characters themselves don't seem to care about what's happening either. In the scene where Sonic and Tails see the aliens having their power sucked out for example, yeah, it's got a hint of seriousness, but in the very next scene afterwards, you've got Sonic right back to joking around with the boss he's about to fight. :l What? I'm not asking for srs bisnz grimdark, I just want the characters to act like some serious sh*t's going down every once in awhile, not all the time. I just want balance.

Edited November 8, 2011 by 'Ferno

[batson]

Intensity. That's basically what Colors and Generations lacked in their plots, and what Unleashed had over the two.

Damn right. Sonic Colors made no effort whatsoever to create an air of danger and suspense, with the sole exception of that cutscene right before you fight Eggman, at which point it was to late to make a difference to the gaming expereince as a whole. Now, i haven't played Generations yet, but if it's narrative style is anything like Colors (which is what it seems to me, based on what people are saying) then i can't imagine im going to feel much more invested in that story either.

Also, i want to say to those who are saying that the series is somehow returning to it's roots, narratively speaking, with games like Sonic Colors: No it isn't. The Sonic games on the Mega Drive indeed had very simple stories, but the difference between them and Colors is that the classic games weren't meant to be comedies. They took place in a cartoony world and had silly elements, yes, but they didn't shove jokes down the players throats.

And i feel that the Mega Drive games with their lightweight stories and almost complete lack of cutscenes were a lot better at creating an aura of suspense than Color's did with it's "almost completely played for laughs" cutscenes. I'd say that even a lack of story is better than a story presented in a silly, comedic, we-who-wrote-this-dont-expect-you-to-take-any-of-this-seriously kinda story for an adventure game if you want to get the audience to feel like what they are going through matters. At least in a game with little or no cutsenes, characterization, dialoge or overall narrative, it allowes the player himself to create his own idea of what kid of universe it takes place in and how the characters might feel about the dangers they are going through. So basically, i think i would have actually felt more invested in beating the bad guy and saving the day in Color's if it didn't have cutscenes at all than i was when i played through the game as it is, with it's everything-is-played for-laughs approach...

[NintendoSoul]

I'm going to skip reading through 5 pages and just say I don't care if the tone is light or dark, just make the story entertaining for me to watch unfold.

[Burnt Ash]

What they need to do is make a SA3. And who wrote that story the main writer for Sonic games.

That's probably the last thing they need to do now. I think that they need to make other playable characters work first. ._.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Damn right. Sonic Colors made no effort whatsoever to create an air of danger and suspense, with the sole exception of that cutscene right before you fight Eggman, at which point it was to late to make a difference to the gaming expereince as a whole. Now, i haven't played Generations yet, but if it's narrative style is anything like Colors (which is what it seems to me, based on what people are saying) then i can't imagine im going to feel much more invested in that story either.

Also, i want to say to those who are saying that the series is somehow returning to it's roots, narratively speaking, with games like Sonic Colors: No it isn't. The Sonic games on the Mega Drive indeed had very simple stories, but the difference between them and Colors is that the classic games weren't meant to be comedies. They took place in a cartoony world and had silly elements, yes, but they didn't shove jokes down the players throats.

It's also interesting to note that the Classic had a degree of intensity to them.

Sure there wasn't any cutscenes present, as the intensity mainly came through level progression. Like Sonic & Knuckles, you can not tell me you felt nothing intense the moment you fought that stages boss. And then it gets more intense in the Death Egg where you're trying to beat the boss while trying to stay alive, and then reaches its grand climax in the Doomsday Zone.

In an age where we can have dialogue complement that, Colors and Generations sold us short.

[batson]

It's also interesting to note that the Classic had a degree of intensity to them.

Sure there wasn't any cutscenes present, as the intensity mainly came through level progression. Like Sonic & Knuckles, you can not tell me you felt nothing intense the moment you fought that stages boss. And then it gets more intense in the Death Egg where you're trying to beat the boss while trying to stay alive, and then reaches its grand climax in the Doomsday Zone.

In an age where we can have dialogue complement that, Colors and Generations sold us short.

Exactly.

Heh, it sure is a nice change of pace that you and i appear to agree completely on something.

[ThatGuyJay]

I'm going to skip reading through 5 pages and just say I don't care if the tone is light or dark, just make the story entertaining for me to watch unfold.

I think the OP was more about light as in light story and heavy story, not light tone and dark tone. I agree with you though, as long as it's entertaining, I don't care if it's shallow, or complex, or simple. As long as it's entertaining and keeps me wanting to figure out what happens next it's good.

[Blacklightning]

Yeah I know I'm late. Blame sleep for that.

When i said 'light' story, I was actually referring to the contrast of 'heavy' (rather than the contrast to 'dark'). As in, I would just like a more involved story line. The story can be lighthearted or dark or in between (most of you assumed i was talking about darkness, and I'm sorry if i mislead you with what I wrote). As long as there is a continuous flow of story telling and purpose assigned to each step of the game. Whether it be shown in level or in cutscene or through character interactions, all is fine by me.

It's worth noting that people stopped talking about light in a luminance sense after your second reply first of all, so there's no need to continue harping on about that.

Second, I'm still having a hard time seeing why a continuous story is really, really needed when a player can be motivated to play simply by giving them a fucking good game. I mean, it's not like you need much context to be able to play Tetris, just the knowledge of how to play the game - similarly as long as every 2D game prior to Rush could be summed up as "Eggman is after the Emmerolds. Stop him from getting the Emmerolds" and managed to be almost universally praised games with an ingame story almost nonexistant by design, it begs the question of why it's strictly necessary to top that at all.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying games can't do without a detailed, non-intrusive narrative - I'm just saying making a game with or without one are both valid approaches that the games can still benefit from. In the end it really amounts to matters of taste, and one does not hold any inherent benefit over the other as long as they're done competently. Ordinarily I'd press this point a lot harder, but considering the OP is mostly opinionated by your admission I guess this is just where we agree to disagree.

I always think about how this is executed in the new batman games. (Disregard the dark theme to the games) the story unfolds perfectly and you're always on your toes and in the action. There is no way batman fans would be saying: 'aww get rid of the story, we just wanna use gadgets, and solve puzzles as batman'.

Batman fans aren't complete fucking retards unlike us, however, but that's a bit besides the point. Because the Arkham Batman series is largely a slow-paced, analytical, stealth-based kind of game, it's the kind that can easily afford to have story fed to the player even if it interrupts the player's involvement or the pacing of the game. In fact, I don't actually know a single stealth game that doesn't do this.

On the other hand, Sonic is not a stealth game. A lot of people just want to enjoy the coked-up speedfest and level designs, and if you let narrative get in the way like that they'll just be like SHUT THE FUCK UP TAILS I WANT TO RUN AND JUMP ON THINGS. Needless to say, you don't have quite as much to work with, and it's not nearly as simple as taking one story approach and gluing it onto another.

This is just going off Asylum btw - if Arkham City is any different story-wise, I haven't had a chance to play it yet.

I quoted you, happy now? haha. I never said 'light hearted' i said light.

All i'm saying is, i dont believe sonic should be light hearted on the story.

'LIGHT' - Adjective:

• Having a considerable or sufficient amount of natural light; not dark: "the bedrooms are light and airy".
  
• Of little weight; easy to lift: "they are very light and portable".
  

two definitions of light, fancy that?

Considering everyone, and I literally mean everyone, always uses that word in the former tense when discussing in the context of Sonic's storylines, it still puzzles me how you could pick that specific word and expect it to be construed any other way.

I get what you're saying and i did praise S3&K for it's story telling, but for me personally, it starts to feel like a chore when every game that has come out in the past few years all run by the same 'go to these 7 or 9 places in any order and verse the final boss' formula. It feels like the levels were created first, then the cutscenes and stories were just thrown in at the last minute to be that 'final touch' to the game.

You know who else did that? Portal. People fucking loved it, even if it was just for Glados's snarkiness and Wheatly... well, being Wheatly. If that's not a kind of narrative approach you can dig even when the game itself is still enjoyable to play through, well obviously that's just not your kind of story. =P