Sonic Unleashed and the Modern Formula

[Nepenthe]

Of course, there will be many defending this gameplay style because they're afraid of change/love playing the same thing over and over.

Like classic fans?

[Lightspines]

OR maybe we don't want Sonic Team to constantly make us learn how to play a completely new gameplay style and actually stay consistent with its gameplay for a change.

There has been three games using this style with little difference. It's time for something new.

[Ferno]

Of course, there will be many defending this gameplay style because they're afraid of change/love playing the same thing over and over.

Nah, we'll defend it because we find it fun and has slight differences with each installment. Just like the slight differences between the classics.

I only started playing Sonic games 10 years ago, trust me, I'm not "afraid of change."

[Lightspines]

Like classic fans?

Yes.

[Ferno]

Yes.

So then I don't see the problem here.

[Kuzu]

There has been three games using this style with little difference. It's time for something new.

Nope, its time to make it better.

You still haven't listed the differences between the Adventure games that makes them so awesome.

[LoseR]

I really haven't read this thread, so I don't know how much of this has already been said. I'm sure much of it has been though...

The Unleashed style itself does NOT lack any depth... It's all the boosting, and invisible walls, and straightforward gameplay that makes it mediocre in my opinion. All the techniques have their uses, but each is incredibly straightforward. The games have NO depth... They need that "Oh what should I do now?" feeling that I NEVER got with any games using the Unleashed style. Everything is all QTEs and prompts and again, just generally straightforward. I'm sure they could pull of something amazing, but it really needs to be less "Just do this!" and more "Alright, so that's what I need to do...".

SEGA, Sonic Team... More DEPTH... Trash the QTEs, prompts, and all that, and give us a challenging adventurous experience...

[Lightspines]

Nope, its time to make it better.

You still haven't listed the differences between the Adventure games that makes them so awesome.

Time to make it better? I highly doubt they would do that.

The only judgement I gave the Adventure games is that there are huge differences between the first and second:

[Kuzu]

The only judgement I gave the Adventure games is that there are huge differences between the first and second:

What differences? You posted two videos that are damn near identical. List them, give me a description, and I'll know if you're BS because I've played both Adventure games.

[Lightspines]

What differences? You posted two videos that are damn near identical. List them, give me a description, and I'll know if you're BS because I've played both Adventure games.

What are you getting worked up over?

They're both the same style, but everything else is completely different.

[Ferno]

What are you getting worked up over?

They're both the same style, but everything else is completely different.

Some explanations would be nice though. Posting just videos and expecting people to watch just comes off as lazy and not trying hard enough to express your point.

[Kuzu]

What are you getting worked up over?

You're making a claim that you aren't backing up with details and descriptions.

They're both the same style, but everything else is completely different.

What is everything else? be specific man, this is what an argument is all about.

[Lightspines]

Some explanations would be nice though. Posting just videos and expecting people to watch just comes off as lazy and not trying hard enough to express your point.

Bare in mind, it's 4:30am here. I don't have the time to list every little detail. Just looking at those videos should be more than enough. My point is, the differences between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are huge compared to the little differences between Unleashed/Colours/Generations.

I'm off to get some sleep. Shall read and respond to your replies when I get back.

You're making a claim that you aren't backing up with details and descriptions.

What is everything else? be specific man, this is what an argument is all about.

I don't really want to argue. I find it pathetic that there has to be an argument over someone's opinion.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Lightspines

[Ferno]

Bare in mind, it's 4:30am here. I don't have the time to list every little detail. Just looking at those videos should be more than enough. My point is, the differences between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are huge compared to the little differences between Unleashed/Colours/Generations.

I'm off to get some sleep. Shall read and respond to your replies when I get back.

I'm not asking for an essay, just a few points.

I don't really want to argue. I find it pathetic that there has to be an argument over someone's opinion.

Welcome to the world of internet forums, opinions are challenged on a regular basis and you should expect it. What the real question here is, "are you a bad enough dude to defend your opinion against your opponent in glorious battle?"

[Sami]

It's hit or miss. Some hate it, while some love it.

Me? I absolutely love it, and nothing anyone says is going to change that. I see the issues others have with it, I acknowledge them myself, but I honestly couldn't care less when it comes to judging how much fun I have playing.

If told to choose between Sonic Unleashed with the level select unlocked and Sonic 2 with the level select unlocked, I would pick Unleashed. Seriously. I also like Final Fantasy XIII a lot more than VII. Clearly, linearity isn't an issue for me.

[Kuzu]

Bare in mind, it's 4:30am here. I don't have the time to list every little detail. Just looking at those videos should be more than enough.

obviously it isn't if I'm asking for an explanation, and I stay up way past four and always give a decent argument.

My point is, the differences between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are huge compared to the little differences between Unleashed/Colours/Generations.

But WHY? Why are they better? God you make a claim, and you can't even back it up with actual facts. I'm not asking for an essay, just a some points, is that really so hard?

I don't really want to argue.

Then you should've never joined this forum.

I find it pathetic that there has to be an argument over someone's opinion.

I find it pathetic that you aren't willing to defend your own beliefs when you believe so much in them.

Me? I absolutely love it, and nothing anyone says is going to change that. I see the issues others have with it, I acknowledge them myself, but I honestly couldn't care less when it comes to judging how much fun I have playing.

That however doesn't mean they shouldn't be fixed, because if they're fixed then it makes for an even more awesome game. Edited August 30, 2011 by Shadic93

[Mr. Awesomest]

I dislike the modern formula, because in the 3D portions it feels like I'm playing Audiosurf. You move around the X and Y axis while things on the Z axis come at you, and you either have to hit or avoid it. I feel it barely qualifies to be called "3D" gameplay, due to what feels like a limited use of the Z axis.

[Strickerx5]

Though I can see some of the flaws the unleashed style of gameplay, I still find it enjoyable. I mean, as far as we know all the complaints on this thread could of been dealt with in generations. We still have about a good half of the level list to see in action (not to mention that we've only seen two full modern acts so far). Also, I don't know how people found the first few bits of modern chemical plant linear. I remember that there were many different paths to take right from the start! Not to mention all the different paths we've seen from just simple screens of seaside hill. What I'm trying to say is that for all we know generations could end up having some very open level design. Plus, where do people get the idea that most unleashed style segments are automated? When I think of the word automated I think of a game like Sonic and the Secret rings, not a game like unleashed or colors. Even so, people still think that the unleashed style is all about boost to win. I mean really, if you apply the thinking when playing unleashed you will die. The boost is just there to further enhance the difficulty of the game and really requires fast action and a bit of trial and error to use affectively.

Does the unleashed style need some work? Well yeah. And should we have the same style of gameplay forever (even though it somehow works with games like mario )? No, it just every sonic style of gameplay had time to develop and become something amazing.

Also, I noticed here that (and I could be wrong on this) the new style of gameplay people are looking for is almost exactly what the adventure titles did. I still don't see how these traits can't be brought over to the unleashed style. I mean, all you need are more pathways and 3D platforming... which kind of sounds like everything generations is already doing. To be frank, I really don't think the unleashed style should be totally dropped from the series. Some more improvements to it (like what Nepenthe said) and this could have the potential to be the best sonic experience ever!

[Chaos Warp]

While it does lack depth, I still really enjoy the Unleashed formula. It is very fun and thrilling to rush by everything, and I really like the reflex portions. However, I think it kinda needs a mix-up with the Adventure formula and have more alternate routes, more platforming (in 3d and 2d), and a more limited boost. Maybe a boost that only lasts 5-6 seconds (without appropriate powerups or course), and takes 20-25 seconds to recharge to full? I don't know, but the boost needs to be more limited. Oh, and also improve low speed controls, which I'm pretty sure Generations is doing.

[SuperClassic]

Bare in mind, it's 4:30am here. I don't have the time to list every little detail. Just looking at those videos should be more than enough. My point is, the differences between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are huge compared to the little differences between Unleashed/Colours/Generations.

I'm off to get some sleep. Shall read and respond to your replies when I get back.

I don't really want to argue. I find it pathetic that there has to be an argument over someone's opinion.

It's only pathetic that you don't have the decency to make an attempt to let us understand and respect your opinion, however, I do agree with you to an extent. The improvements from Sonic Adventure 1 to Sonic Adventure 2 are very noticeable, the controls, the grinding mechanic, and more linear level design are all what I consider improvements, these improvements and slight changes then led to Heroes(besides the improved controls) and Shadow. Sonic Unleashed's gameplay style really is just improving what Heroes and Shadow had though, adding a better sense of speed, and less long areas where you do pretty much nothing, a lot of those types of areas where replaced with chase sequences or QTE, whether you like these changes are up to you, I personally love them.

Honestly, a game doesn't need huge improvements to be better than it's prequel, just something that makes it unique.

Edited August 30, 2011 by SuperClassic

[Ivo the Egghog]

God damn it. As soon as I got called into work this thread took off and I missed everything! It was my first ever thread too... :'(

Manly tears aside, all the debate in this thread has pretty much made me realize while the modern formula isn't perfect, it's still a blast to play. If Sonic Team decides to stick with it I'll be fine with it, but if they make something new (provided that it would be good) I wouldn't be mad either. Honestly, I think that this formula captures what it would really be like to be Sonic the Hedgehog, which is pretty cool imo. Unleashed/Colors might not be GotY, but I still had a damn good time playing both.

[Legendary Emerald]

I'll weigh in on the differences in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic gameplay, since Lightspines isn't around at the moment.

The differences really aren't huge, though there are some notable ones. Most have something to do with level architecture; though both games features multiple paths, the levels in Sonic Adventure are generally very open and wide. Sonic Adventure 2's stages are more like branching racetracks, with the exception of Crazy Gadget. Because of this, SA feels like a slower paced game than SA2, because SA2's overall design encourages you to be going forward. However, it also gives you the control to explore if you want to, just like in SA1 (there just isn't much to find, outside of the secret power ups).

The other big difference between the two games is the trick system, whereby in SA2 you get more points for attacking rows of enemies without touching the ground, dismounting rails at the perfect time, and performing tricks on a skateboard. This aspect of the game highly encourages replaying the levels over and over again, and makes achieving A ranks much more satisfying, because you aren't simply satisfying a time limit or 50 ring goal.

Anyways, those are the biggest differences I can think of. Both games have their strengths, and though SA is closer in spirit to what I think a modern Sonic game should be like, SA2 is no doubt an extremely well executed gameplay experience in its own right. I still waffle as to which game I prefer. It's unfair to say there are no differences between the two games.

It's also unfair to say there has barely been any change in the unleashed series. Again though, most of this is because of level design, rather than any big change in the control or actions you perform. Sonic Unleashed is a very linear experience, moreso than Sonic Adventure 2, and almost solely focused moving ahead as fast as possible. Most branching paths or alternate routes are very short affairs, there for you to experiment with so that you can find the quickest way to get through the level. QTE's are also prevalent, and always necessary if one doesn't want to die or miss out on a shortcut.

Sonic Colors meanwhile, while still linear in its 3D sections, increases the scope of its 2D levels, and often has at least two, completely different ways to go through every area. The game was slowed down a tad as well, and exploration was integrated back in with the inclusion of the Red Coins, a brilliant move on SEGA's part. As some people have pointed out though, level design in Color's is blockier than in Unleashed, which took its ques from realistic architecture and scenery. The game as a whole is a huge improvement over Unleashed, but one can't help but wish the game didn't save all its best features and platforming for the 2D sections only. Oh, and let's not forget about the Wisps, which mostly served to help you explore the alternate paths in the game; overall, a good gimmick that doesn't overshadow the rest of the gameplay.

Sonic Generations, though unreleased, looks to continue the trend of improvement. Green Hill Zone is a perfect example; it is a mostly 3D level, full of branching paths that exist for more reason than to just be shortcuts. Red Rings are also brought back, giving the player a reason to explores all these alternate paths. This is all done without significantly slowing down the gameplay, and without holding onto the crutch of 2D. I cannot wait to play this game, because I feel it truly will be the height of the Unleashed style.

I just can't think of anywhere else for it to go from there.

[Blue Blood]

obviously it isn't if I'm asking for an explanation, and I stay up way past four and always give a decent argument.

But WHY? Why are they better? God you make a claim, and you can't even back it up with actual facts. I'm not asking for an essay, just a some points, is that really so hard?

Then you should've never joined this forum.

I find it pathetic that you aren't willing to defend your own beliefs when you believe so much in them.

That however doesn't mean they shouldn't be fixed, because if they're fixed then it makes for an even more awesome game.

Bloody hell. You don't half make it difficult for people to want to debate. I was already driven out of this topic because you were being so aggressive, and although I totally agree it's annoying to be told to watch a video, you just don't want to explain yourself when you know the other person is going to dismiss every point. Nobody wants to debate when the response is a glorified "no but you're wrong". How many times have you listened to an opposing view in this thread and taken their interpretation on board?

The Unleashed style was great when we first saw it. It was different, exciting and genuinely much more fun (and solid) than anything since SA2. Like I've said before, I still enjoy it. But without practically changing the entire formula, Generations and future games will play far too similarly. What use is the boost if the levels aren't constructed out of straight-ways, and instead have more 3D platforming? It becomes nothing but a useless special effect that won't benefit the player. Stages like Speed Highway pt1, Green Forest and Pyramid Cave all have creative, fun and very fast speed segments with 3D movement and no boost. And then, what use are tighter controls if the stages are still built like they are in Unleashed-esque games? You wouldn't actually get a chance to feel the improved control. The controls in Generations may well be tightened up a bit (haven't played it, so can't provide my opinion on this'n) but there's almost nowhere where you can see this. Green Hill is entirely straight-ways, City Escape has that one small park area, and Chemical Plant is straight-ways again.

The Unleashed style to me comes down to an absolute focus on speed in 3D. In 2D, it's rather simple and uninteresting platforming. These are ever-present in Unleashed, Colours and Generations, and collectively it's what I want them to change. I'll admit that the 2D/3D switching isn't necessarily detrimental and doesn't have to be abolished like I said. However, the way it's currently used is doing no favours. It shouldn't be used as a way separating speed and platforming, but instead be used as a way of doing things that aren't possible in 2D. Likewise, the shallow 3D gameplay either works like an on-rails game (chase segments, quick step areas, grind rails) or it's not making use of the benefits of 3D.

[Lightspines]

obviously it isn't if I'm asking for an explanation, and I stay up way past four and always give a decent argument.

There are so many things wrong with this sentence, I'm not going to bother.

But WHY? Why are they better? God you make a claim, and you can't even back it up with actual facts. I'm not asking for an essay, just a some points, is that really so hard?

Where did I say the differences are better? I said they're bigger. Huge difference between those words. Quite frankly, I don't care to waste my time explaining them when they won't make a difference.

Then you should've never joined this forum. I find it pathetic that you aren't willing to defend your own beliefs when you believe so much in them.

I expected there to be trolls on here, but you're worse than what I expected. The only ones that have such an urge to battle off someone else's opinion, are the ones with low self-esteem. I suggest you look up the word "opinion" and move on.

I don't want to get into an argument, which will lead to this thread being locked. I'm leaving this thread before this goes any further. Don't bother replying.

[Dark Qiviut]

(Note that I haven't read anything past page three.)

Sonic shouldn't be nothing more than a "gimmick" though. The speed in the old games was there not just to wow bystanders, but to make the game more enjoyable to play. You still had complete control over Sonic. "Mario sped up a bit" perfectly describes the classic Sonic games, if you count the ball-jump and rolling level design as ways to speed up the gameplay, which I do. I'm all for gameplay evolution, but so far no attempt to change that "Mario sped up a bit" philosophy has worked as well. As witnessed by Sonic 2006's speed sections, as witnessed by Sonic and the Secret Rings, as witnessed by Unleashed, as witnessed by Colors, and as soon to be witnessed by Generations.

Initially, Sonic's speed was a gimmick. It was a platform-heavy genre that is supposed to be quickly-paced featuring a character with an attitude and a will to roam from point A to point B at his quickest. But what started out as a gimmick quickly became the series's identity. We see this as early as Sonic 2 on the Genesis, because that game is way more speed-heavy and more steamlined than the other three main Classic games.

I know you don't care much about speed in a Sonic game, and I can understand that. But when it comes to selling to the masses, how are you going to do it? Promoting platforming on its own isn't going to work because they don't associate Sonic with it. Selling Sonic's speed in commercials and expos are what will make people buy their games. As a result, the platforming becomes a hidden bonus for the player, either as an obstacle, enhancer, or both.

The association of Sonic's speed during their commercials and promotions and the illusion of it in the Classics are why games like Sonic Rush was critically considered as a game that goes back to Sonic's roots, even though Rush and the Classics completely differ in direction.

This is what Unleashed Daytime pulls off well. The Classics give off the illusion of a high-speed game. Unleashed pulls it off physically. The sensation of speed in the Classics becomes a virtual reality in Unleashed and Generations HD. The high-speed gameplay in Unleashed HD wowed people because it's not something we've seen before in a non-racing game. The thrill of whizzing by along with maneuvering the controls to bypass subsequent dangers keeps the adrenaline pumping. The more you keep the adrenaline going and more anticipation and excitement that gets pumped in people's hearts while they play it, the more they want it and the better received it gets despite the level design being compared to corridors at times and the lack of speed-to-platforming balance. The Daytime stages are also a speed runner's dream. I can see why the masses love it and why they're excited to see it return in Generations HD.