Sonic Unleashed and the Modern Formula

[Diogenes]

While you've gone on record plenty of times saying they should scrap the whole style

[Legendary Emerald]

*shit man this wasn't supposed to be posted here.*

Edited August 30, 2011 by Legendary Emerald

[Kuzu]

I'm not too fond of playing the same game for the 3rd time. I'd rather have something fresh and new.

[Nepenthe]

Eggmanland is a structural anomaly in Unleashed thus presenting a different play-style and absurd spike in difficulty, so much so that the boosting is usually more of a hindrance to the player than it is beneficial.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Legendary Emerald]

Because then its barely a Sonic game anymore, its a Mario game.

Because its not hurting the gameplay at all, even Mario Galaxy has the occasional 2D section thrown in, I don't see why Sonic can't do it, why does Sonic have to abide by so many rules that Mario can break?

Because its Sonic's entire gimmick, you take away his blistering speed, he's basically Mario sped up a bit.

First off, I in particular don't have a problem with the 2D sections, as long as they don't overtake the 3D side of things. I do understand the point that people have against them, and I stated it matter-of-factly.

Sonic shouldn't be nothing more than a "gimmick" though. The speed in the old games was there not just to wow bystanders, but to make the game more enjoyable to play. You still had complete control over Sonic. "Mario sped up a bit" perfectly describes the classic Sonic games, if you count the ball-jump and rolling level design as ways to speed up the gameplay, which I do. I'm all for gameplay evolution, but so far no attempt to change that "Mario sped up a bit" philosophy has worked as well. As witnessed by Sonic 2006's speed sections, as witnessed by Sonic and the Secret Rings, as witnessed by Unleashed, as witnessed by Colors, and as soon to be witnessed by Generations.

Also, thanks, A Match In Oil Ocean Zone, XD.

[Kuzu]

Sonic shouldn't be nothing more than a "gimmick" though. The speed in the old games was there not just to wow bystanders, but to make the game more enjoyable to play. You still had complete control over Sonic. "Mario sped up a bit" perfectly describes the classic Sonic games, if you count the ball-jump and rolling level design as ways to speed up the gameplay, which I do. I'm all for gameplay evolution, but so far no attempt to change that "Mario sped up a bit" philosophy has worked as well. As witnessed by Sonic 2006's speed sections, as witnessed by Sonic and the Secret Rings, as witnessed by Unleashed, as witnessed by Colors, and as soon to be witnessed by Generations.

But Sonic should try to evolve into something different than Mario, not try to emulate him. I'm not saying Sonic should be nothing but pure speed and nothing else, but saying that he hasn't developed any good platforming is bull, as generations as shown, to be honest your problem is the linearity, which has been addressed to some degree, I know you say you want control over Sonic, but you act if you're not doing anything when you're running at such blistering speeds in Unleashed, are you not dodging obstacles? Making turns? That sounds a lot like control to me, its just different control than what you're used to.

[Diogenes]

But Sonic should try to evolve into something different than Mario, not try to emulate him.

I agree with this, I just think their current method is pretty poor. I'd rather have the rolling mechanics make Sonic unique.

but you act if you're not doing anything when you're running at such blistering speeds in Unleashed, are you not...[m]aking turns?

Not all the time. Sometimes the game's doing that. Try it in Dragon Road.

[Kuzu]

Was wondering when you were going to respond to me.

I agree with this, I just think their current method is pretty poor. I'd rather have the rolling mechanics make Sonic unique.

There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't think completely changing the gameplay is necessary to do so, it can be retooled without changing a thing.

Not all the time. Sometimes the game's doing that. Try it in Dragon Road.

Which is one level out of 8, and that's not even going into the DLC levels.

[Ferno]

Because its not hurting the gameplay at all, even Mario Galaxy has the occasional 2D section thrown in, I don't see why Sonic can't do it, why does Sonic have to abide by so many rules that Mario can break?

Agreed. Just this past E3 when Mario Kart 7 was revealed and it got to the part of the video when they were underwater, I instantly thought "Heh- it's Mario, no logic needed." But the very fact that Sonic's in a car in his racing game and people bitch. I don't even wanna know what they're reaction would be if he suddenly started driving a car underwater let alone just being in one.

[Diogenes]

There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't think completely changing the gameplay is necessary to do so, it can be retooled without changing a thing.

[Kuzu]

They can change things without changing things now? We are truly living in the future.

[KHCast]

Wow shadic and dio sure do love debating! Anyway I'm fine with the modern gameplay. Yeah it needs some changes like less automation and more freedom but it's still fun and i enjoy it.

[Diogenes]

Analogy time:

You're talking about throwing out a perfectly usable car, for a brand new one. Yeah that used car has a few issues with it, but it can still be modified to be good, rather than waste all your money and effort into a new car that could potentially breakdown the first time you drive it.

I'm not advocating that they literally throw out every single thing. They can take the existing engine and modify it (if it can handle it), they should hold onto the hedgehog engine because it makes some damn pretty games, and I'm willing to discuss the merits of pretty much everything else (that doesn't mean I'll easily agree with them, mind). But I think there needs to be significant changes to the gameplay, both in mechanics and theory, that make it no longer "Unleashed style".

There's some automation in the Genesis games, does that mean the entire game is shit?

It should be avoided whenever possible, and when it is done, some places are better than others. Making hallways that turn you as the hallway turns is pretty fucking stupid.

[Kuzu]

Wow shadic and dio sure do love debating!

Its kind of our thing, huh?

It should be avoided whenever possible, and when it is done, some places are better than others. Making hallways that turn you as the hallway turns is pretty fucking stupid.

Those changes you want, basically amount to: Less Boost, More open levels, and rolling.

And the game going on autopilot, just to make you go fast, when you're already going fast, is just as stupid.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Shadic93

[Raithos]

I LOVE the Modern gameplay. The constant boosting? I'll take that, it does feel sort of like it's on a rail at times and too much so. But a more free expanse/ free roaming exploratory gameplay would be sick.

[KHCast]

Its kind of our thing, huh?

Those changes you want, basically amount to: Less Boost, More open levels, and rolling.

And the game going on autopilot, just to make you go fast, when you're already going fast, is just as stupid.

Yea pretty much. I like the boost and all but it is overused way to much in unleashed. I would like the Modern CE approach with it. There it doesn't really NEED to be used until the end.

[Nepenthe]

Scrap the style, yes. The overall philosophy of level design and gameplay in general. Not that every piece must be thrown out; you don't throw out the paint just because the painting is bad.

Saying "throwing away the style" doesn't mean abandoning the majority or all of its elements is disingenuous, especially since I've never seen you nor any other opponent discuss what's actually worth saving from Unleashed et. al in the first place. So I'm curious: What do you honestly believe is worth keeping?

Regarding the heavy reliance on and use of the boost, obviously removing or significantly nerfing it changes this.

Proponents don't want it removed, although nerfing or changing its parameters for use doesn't eliminate the maneuver's core status in the style. The fact that the bar is more finicky and there are less rings in Generations' modern GHZ demo already means you're not going to be privy to the amount of boost you were in Unleashed even as a newcomer. Same with Adventure-era game design from what we've seen, but obviously the gameplay isn't suddenly different as a result.

Regarding the straight-forward level design, expanding the complexity of 3D areas and of platforming means not solving every problem with "go forward". It also means less relying on the boost, since its purpose is to go forward really fast.

That's the thing- I don't agree that going forward is an inherent flaw of game design, much less with a platforming series, much less with one in which the only way to progress in the overwhelming majority of the titles is to reach an end point from a beginning point.

As for the boost, see above.

Regarding QTEs, pseudo- or otherwise, ideally more complex platforming and level gimmicks would be replacing them, and less focus on the boost makes the pseudo-QTEs a little less Q.

Regarding automation, well, you said to "tone that shit down".

Most of the one-button maneuvers were never totally necessary in platforming-centric areas. Slide, Quick Step, and Stomp? These are generally reserved for stretches of area where you're supposed to be going forward quickly. So focusing on better platforming or even level gimmicks wouldn't actually facilitate their sudden abandonment.

That you have to single out a single level of the game means it's really not an indicator of the game's overall philosophy. Yes, Eggmanland does have less focus on the boost, but not because it plays along with Unleashed's style; there's less focus on the boost because it will kill you unless you use it in a few specific spots or with a brain surgeon's touch.

I don't have to; it's just the most notorious. From memory, Windmill Isle Act 2 is the only major stage in which platforming is so minimal that nearly all of it can basically be bypassed with a maxed-out boost. Every other stage beyond that includes immediate and obvious diversions from the go-forward bits with sections of platforming in which the boost is either useless or will damage/kill you from general use. Following from that, Eggmanland being one-hit-kill wonder doesn't make it an anomaly, it makes it the final level. =/

One of the main problems with Colors is that it barely qualifies as a 3D game; 2D sections being less boost-focused than 3D sections is par for the course for Unleashed style, and Colors' few 3D sections are no better than Unleashed (actually in general they're worse). The wisps also take a lot of focus, but they're a one-shot gimmick, not a sustainable aspect of the style (and honestly I wouldn't want them to be anyway).

Gameplay styles do not necessarily have to be pigeonholed to a single dimension, especially so in this case considering the whole switching aspect that's been advertised as a selling-point since forever ago, so Colors being primarily 2D doesn't really undermine or contradict anything.

Also, I never said the Wisps are a sustainable gimmick, just that they're evidence that the style has more wiggle room for expansion and improvement than you and others are giving it credit for.

So, I've discussed my definition. What's yours?

The only things to me that have proven consistent across all three iterations, in terms of general design, are: Long, horizontal paths interrupted by areas or chambers of traditional platforming, a boost to primarily facilitate going through the aforementioned paths at extreme speeds, and a camera that switches automatically to signify 2D or 3D movement throughout the same level. That's really all it takes. =/

Adding branches or vertically-stacked paths going along or even across the aforementioned roads doesn't kill the style. Having platforming where the boost is discouraged or even forbidden doesn't break the style. Having gimmicks to interact with certainly doesn't break the style, and neither does removing sections where you're tossed about via springs. Power-ups don't either, nor do uneven splits in 2D and 3D movement. QTEs? No. Lack of realistic-feeling momentum? No. No rolling? No.

edited for grammar and style.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

Those changes you want, basically amount to: Less Boost, More open levels, and rolling.

That's a bit of an oversimplification.

And the game going on autopilot, just to make you go fast, when you're already going fast, is just as stupid.

Let's do neither, then.

[Eastwood]

1.In my opinion I think the Adventure style has always been superior to the current one.

2.This linear style of gameplay got old with Sonic and the Secret Rings.

3.I dont want to be running in a 3D world that randomly switches to 2D and changes my whole perspective, all

while forcing me to move forward.

4.I hope Sega will be changing the style soon to make it more open and to where Sonic doesn't control

like a car.

[Kuzu]

That's a bit of an oversimplification.

I'm a simple person, and am I wrong?

Let's do neither, then.

Fair enough.

[Lightspines]

See I fucking hate statements like this with a passion(This isn't directed at you Lightspines, just a general thing), people say they want change and variation, but when change and variation comes, we bitch that we want consistency, then lather, rinse, repeat. This is exactly why the fanbase is as flawed as it is, and why I think ST shouldn't do a damn thing to the Unleashed styles that they already aren't doing.

Between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, there are huge differences (Comparison of Sonic's gameplay), while between Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations, there are little differences. A trilogy is more than enough.

Sure, keep giving Sonic Team the nudge to keep putting out the same thing. This will only harm them in the long run. They loose fans, but also gain fans with everything they put out. Sonic Team should be doing some proper research on how to reach a larger demographic.

Games like Sonic need to evolve.

[SuperClassic]

Between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, there are huge differences (Comparison of Sonic's gameplay), while between Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations, there are little differences. A trilogy is more than enough.

Sure, keep giving Sonic Team the nudge to keep putting out the same thing. This will only harm them in the long run. They loose fans, but also gain fans with everything they put out. Sonic Team should be doing some proper research on how to reach a larger demographic.

Games like Sonic need to evolve.

But it isn't the same thing, Sonic Unleashed, Colors, and Sonic Generations all have their own unique gimmicks, as long as the games introduce a unique gimmick or setting, I'm sure that this style of gameplay will be here to stay.

[Kuzu]

Between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, there are huge differences (Comparison of Sonic's gameplay), while between Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations, there are little differences. A trilogy is more than enough.

The differences between Sa1 and Sa2 are as superficial as the changes from Unleashed to Generations, name one significant difference between the two.

Sure, keep giving Sonic Team the nudge to keep putting out the same thing. This will only harm them in the long run. They loose fans, but also gain fans with everything they put out. Sonic Team should be doing some proper research on how to reach a larger demographic.

Which is why they brought back the Classic gameplay to begin with.

Games like Sonic need to evolve.

Which is what they've been doing, if you can't see the differences between Unleashed and Generations, then you have no understanding of the gameplay in general.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Shadic93

[Lightspines]

But it isn't the same thing, Sonic Unleashed, Colors, and Sonic Generations all have their own unique gimmicks, as long as the games introduce a unique gimmick or setting, I'm sure that this style of gameplay will be here to stay.

Sonic Colours = Sonic Unleashed gone bland/another pointless gimmick introduced.

Sonic Generations = Sonic Unleashed Level DLC/Classic Sonic replacing the Werehog.

Of course, there will be many defending this gameplay style because they're afraid of change/love playing the same thing over and over.

[Kuzu]

Of course, there will be many defending this gameplay style because they're afraid of change/love playing the same thing over and over.

OR maybe we don't want Sonic Team to constantly make us learn how to play a completely new gameplay style and actually stay consistent with its gameplay for a change.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Shadic93