Sonic Unleashed and the Modern Formula

[Kuzu]

Yep. Totally gonna hate on a game cause it isn't my idea of perfect. Mhm. It's not like I just want something different and deeper than what we currently have. /sarcasm

There's no reason at all that a style change would result in a bad game. They just need something else that isn't exactly the same with a new lick of paint.

But who says the new style would be good? I'd rather they play with and improve what they have, than scrap it and make something completely new, with probably varying degrees of success.

Sonic 4 is a poor imitation and as such, gets slammed for it like you say. Classic Generations is an all-round decent imitation. Rough on the edges with room for improvement, still plays well though. Some parts are even intentionally different to the classics with nice results.

There are people here that treat as if its still bad because its still not like the classics, which still proves my point that ST can try to recreate the classics all they want, but unless they make a picture perfect copy, classic purists won't be satisfied, and then you have the fans that want change with their games and not a picture perfect recreation.

No, we don't lose unless the developers once again prove themselves to be completely incompetent. If I don't like it when we've had something a thousand times better before, then I want something to change. That "if you don't like it then it's too bad" attitude is so very annoying and completely dismissive.

But who decides what's good and what's bad? Most if not all of the hate for the Modern gameplay is mainly based off of personal preference for the classics, and there's nothing wrong with that. And "change" was something that was a problem with the franchise before Unleahsed, it couldn't decide what it wanted to do and shuffled between so many gameplay changes. It may be annoying and dimissive, but its the truth, things aren't always going to turn out the way you want them to, and because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be scrapped and changed altogether, it should be improved so that you grow to like it, and if you still don't, then that's too bad.

Isn't pleasing everyone EXACTLY what they're trying to do with Generations?

And according to this topic, they sure as hell aren't succeeding.

Love the Unleashed gameplay.

Love the Adventure gameplay.

To please everyone, I think they should make a Sonic game with only two kinds of gameplay:

- Sonic Unleashed Day gameplay

- Sonic Adventure Sonic gameplay

That way, they have their "alternate gameplay" thing without adding something fans may not like (the Werehog ?), and it's all good (also, make the 2D sections of the Unleashed gameplay closer to the classics. No pinball physics, but more platforming. Look at Colors).

But why should there be two kinds of gameplay? We shouldn't split the styles up because people bitch over which is better, choose one and improve it. Yeah people will bitch, but hey, some decisions aren't always favorable to everyone.

[Scar]

SA2 was straight-forward like Unleashed, but not monotonous. There was more variation in all aspects of the level design.

You are right about that, but mechanically, they are incredibly similar. Take out the boost, and lower Sonic's acceleration/stop speed, and bang, you have SA2.

The level design then, is the key determining factor in deciding what the game feels and plays like. You could slap adventure-ish level design onto Unleashed (perhaps with a change in Sonic's acceleration values) and the game would play just fine, you just wouldn't want to use the boost that much, and would use it sparingly, given how litter rings there are in the stages relative to Unleashed.

You could slap Unleashed level design onto SA1 (and increase Sonic's acceleration/top speed) and all that would happen is people would like abusing the spamdash even more often than befre. Other than that it would work just fine.

[T-Min]

I approve.

My only problem with it is the loose controls at low speeds. Gens will probably fix that though.

Oh, and anyone who says that you can win by holding X is simply wrong, mang.

[Nepenthe]

It may not be broken, but it's not good. They need to scrap the bulk of what makes the Unleashed gameplay what it is because there genuinely isn't a lot that can be done with it.

Nothing stated in the topic has convinced me that the style's inherently bad nor that a lot of the changes wanted couldn't be added while keeping the core of the style alive in a meaningful manner.

Speed as spectacle instead of a married design element to the platforming? The highest speeds attainable in Sonic games have always, always, always been disconnected from the platforming areas in the first place, relegated to hitting some automatic contraption or pressing down just before a steep incline or series of hills in the classics and holding forward in the Adventures and beyond. Daytime style has merely put a bigger emphasis on these sequences while adding some more modicum of control and subsequently things to dodge during ironically, and it's gone so far as to be nice and add indicators towards upcoming one-hit-kill obstacles the second time around.

The boost? The fanbase has chewed on this forever: Use the Advance style and eliminate its mapped status altogether, lower the resources necessary to keep the bar filled ala Generations so that speed runs of the Unleashed nature require more maneuverability, skill, and exploration of the level design to maintain, slow it down and/or relegate it to certain sections like Colors, reinstate the effects that gravity has on Sonic's momentum and velocity and subsequently rolling level design and multi-tiered paths that can be taken advantage of depending upon one's velocity. Hell, I'm sure there's more that's out there or buried in this very forum.

Shallow 3D areas and a lack of platforming? Make them...not shallow and add more platforming? Eggmanland, as much as we all just loathe it, did throw out tons of platforming areas that required little or no use of the boost at all without completely destroy the gameplay style. And while the speed trap-platforming area-speed trap-platforming area flow is a series' staple, it was nonetheless reminiscent of SA1 design in that regard where you're thrown into these vertically-based chambers and tasked with figuring out how to go on about moving upwards to progress, like Lost World or Final Egg. Colors, of course, was built around vertical exploration even if the platforming overall was simplistic. But again, the simplicity of that isn't some inherent result of Sonic being given a boost bar but the result of the developer team's skill level.

Linearity? I don't consider this an inherent problem not only for the Sonic series but for game design in general. You know how linear Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped is? 99% of the levels are literally nothing but lines. That 1% where you're given free reign to move about in a 3D environment is in completely irrelevant dogfighting missions. And yet it's one of the best damn platformers I've ever played in my life. Ever. The Galaxy games are notably linear compared to their N64 and GC predecessors, and you'll be laughed off the Internet for suggesting this is some major chink in their design. Am I adversed to having more paths and more places to go? Of course not; hell, you could add major diversions to the level design and not destroy the formula. But personally, I'm not pining for them in a series where the main goal has for the most part been get from point A to point B and pass/capture/destroy the goal.

Lack of in-level gimmicks? Same as above- Add them. Automation? Tone that shit down. You know how much platforming could be had in areas that are merely spring-loaded?

Overall, this whole sentiment about wanting to completely get rid of the style because it can't do anything is absolutely ridiculous, hardly indicative of progress. Gets on my tits, it does.

[Blue Blood]

You are right about that, but mechanically, they are incredibly similar. Take out the boost, and lower Sonic's acceleration/stop speed, and bang, you have SA2.

Mechanically they aren't that different. SA2 encourages you to do more though, and the levels themselves have unique structures. The boost doesn't let you do a lot of that though.

The level design then, is the key determining factor in deciding what the game feels and plays like. You could slap adventure-ish level design onto Unleashed (perhaps with a change in Sonic's acceleration values) and the game would play just fine, you just wouldn't want to use the boost that much, and would use it sparingly, given how litter rings there are in the stages relative to Unleashed.

Arid Sands Act 3 (the chao hunting one from the DLC) plays nothing like anything else in Unleashed. Fix up the acceleration and you have a different game altogether.

You could slap Unleashed level design onto SA1 (and increase Sonic's acceleration/top speed) and all that would happen is people would like abusing the spamdash even more often than befre. Other than that it would work just fine.

And that's a very bad thing. The opposite would be just as bad.

[Kuzu]

Nephy pretty much summed up my entire sentiment.

There's no reason to completely axe the style altogether, improve it and make it better. Nothing said in this topic has given me any reason to believe that any improvements that need to be made can't be applied to Unleashed style,

Edited August 29, 2011 by Shadic93

[Legendary Emerald]

I'll start off this post by saying I genuinely like Sonic Colors, and find Sonic Unleashed's daylight stages mostly enjoyable (except Adabat. Fuck Adabat). And I'm fine with seeing them bringing back the same general formula for Generations.

That said, I hope we won't see the style anymore after that. Due to the overall limiting nature of the boost-focused gameplay, only so much can be done with it. And to do another game with the same gameplay after Generations will just feel tired and worn out at that point, I believe.

Hopefully Sega will do something completely new after Generations. And I don't mean simply revisiting the Adventure formula, either. Though there are some ideas that should be taken from those games, such as having more than one playable character, and levels that aren't as linear. Maybe we could have a game where there are multiple exits to each level, and thereby different paths to play through the game. Or even go the opposite direction, getting rid of levels entirely and making it all an open-world game.

I'm interested in any new idea, so long as it doesn't simplify the Sonic experience even more, and doesn't add any unnecessary weapons.

[Kuzu]

Hopefully Sega will do something completely new after Generations. And I don't mean simply revisiting the Adventure formula, either. Though there are some ideas that should be taken from those games, such as having more than one playable character, and levels that aren't as linear. Maybe we could have a game where there are multiple exits to each level, and thereby different paths to play through the game. Or even go the opposite direction, getting rid of levels entirely and making it all an open-world game.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Shadic93

[Blue Blood]

All of this can be applied to the Unleashed style. Matter of fact all of this has been applies to Generations, its far less linear than Unleashed, controls much better than Unleashed, and has a lot more to do in the levels than in Unleashed, hell the only real complaint is the boost and that's one detail, as well as more characters and really that's a simple task.

[Kuzu]

Less linear than Unleashed? Not from what I'm seeing. A few dash hoops and ramps don't make for alternate routes. I'm certainly not sure where there's a lot more to do, either.

[Diogenes]

I've got to wonder what the hell people think "Unleashed style" is, if you can make all these changes and it still counts as Unleashed style.

I'm not advocating that they literally throw out every single thing. They can take the existing engine and modify it (if it can handle it), they should hold onto the hedgehog engine because it makes some damn pretty games, and I'm willing to discuss the merits of pretty much everything else (that doesn't mean I'll easily agree with them, mind). But I think there needs to be significant changes to the gameplay, both in mechanics and theory, that make it no longer "Unleashed style".

[Legendary Emerald]

All of this can be applied to the Unleashed style. Matter of fact all of this has been applies to Generations, its far less linear than Unleashed, controls much better than Unleashed, and has a lot more to do in the levels than in Unleashed, hell the only real complaint is the boost and that's one detail, as well as more characters and really that's a simple task.

[Nepenthe]

I've got to wonder what the hell people think "Unleashed style" is, if you can make all these changes and it still counts as Unleashed style.

I'm not advocating that they literally throw out every single thing. They can take the existing engine and modify it (if it can handle it), they should hold onto the hedgehog engine because it makes some damn pretty games, and I'm willing to discuss the merits of pretty much everything else (that doesn't mean I'll easily agree with them, mind). But I think there needs to be significant changes to the gameplay, both in mechanics and theory, that make it no longer "Unleashed style".

[Kuzu]

Not really. I can't comment on how the game controls as Modern Sonic, since I have yet to play the game, but I will concede that the videos of Green Hill zone show quite a bit of non-linearity, which will hopefully carry through the rest of the game. The boost though really is the defining point of the "unleashed" style, though. And while the ability to go fast isn't in itself a bad thing, the levels are built around it to such a point that you sometimes are doing nothing but dashing straight forward or straight to the right, defeating enemies with no real conscious effort. It's a spectacle, to be sure, but not too interactive. And even though you could just not boost, and homing attack the individual enemies, the only difference it would make is slowing down the level without giving any meaningful reason to do so. Whether holding down one button, or holding a direction and pressing a different button repeatedly, it's still mindless.

[Blue Blood]

While you've gone on record plenty of times saying they should scrap the whole style, it's Blue Blood's direct statement that's got me and others riled. Regardless, what in your opinion is Unleashed style and why would any additions outlined above destroy it?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Blue Blood

[Legendary Emerald]

Problem: Too much reliance on boost.

Solution: Make level design less reliant on Boost, oh wait they did, the boosting segments we've seen in Generations are damn near non-existent and are there for chase sequences.

There's no reason why any of this can't be added with the current gameplay route, what substance do you want? People say they want substance but can't describe what that substance is. Mario's substance is his slower paced platforming levels, for Sonic its his speed based thrill ride.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Legendary Emerald

[Nepenthe]

I stand by that. To me, the Unleashed style is made up of the following-

1. Boosting as much as physically possible.

2. Straight-forward level design that emphasises running at the cost of all else.

3. QTEs/pseudo-QTEs.

4. 2D/3D switching.

You change that and you no longer have what makes Unleashed anymore. They're the things I want them to change. Those aspects are so, so limiting. There's practically nothing that can be done to build upon them (except number four).

[Kuzu]

1. Boosting as much as physically possible.[/qu

2. Straight-forward level design that emphasises running at the cost of all else.

3. QTEs/pseudo-QTEs.

4. 2D/3D switching.

[Unknownlight]

I've got to wonder what the hell people think "Unleashed style" is, if you can make all these changes and it still counts as Unleashed style.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Unknownlight

[Kuzu]

Sorry, but boost segments are everywhere in the Generations videos. Multiple times in Greenhill there is nothing to do but go forward. The short footage we have of Chemical Plant zone is extremely linear, at least the opening of the stage. Now, as I said, I do enjoy the Unleashed style. But I can't help but notice the "boost sections" are flaws, though I wouldn't call them major ones. Still, any flaw that has no reason for existing should be taken out.

[Legendary Emerald]

Like Scar said all of these are level design issues and not mechanic issues, and the former can be changed as Generations has done.

1. Have less boost reliant gameplay, all of the levels that Generations has shown may have their share of boosting, but the level isn't entirely made from it and has some platforming segments.

2. There have been so many platforming segments laid out in that game, that I'm really getting tired of telling people they are there.

3. QTE's are non existent, and can be triggered at will, you don't HAVE to use the trick system and it doesn't slow down the gameplay at all.

4. This I won't argue, but scrapping it ain't the solution, just add more 3D and less 2D.

Seriously Generations tackles all of those problems and it still keeps the basis of the Unleashed style the same, so I'm failing to see why its inherently bad if its obviously been improved on, and why it can't be further improved on with the ideas that people have laid out.

[Blue Blood]

Eggmanland itself (not even counting the Werehog parts) and Colors in general break the confines of 1 and 2. Generations and Colors include 3 but they aren't even mandatory for progress or even good rankings and are thus negligible. 4's the only one you've got on every single iteration of the style, but it confirms how amazingly narrow your definition is since the only three examples in gaming history of Unleashed style don't even strictly stick to 75% of the criteria you've come up with.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Blue Blood

[Match]

Legendary Emerald...PLEASE go work for Sega. You know exactly what you're talking about. I would love for you to be in charge of a Sonic game, just...please.

[Lightspines]

I'm not too fond of playing the same game for the 3rd time. I'd rather have something fresh and new.

[Kuzu]

1. Why isn't the whole level platforming, then? Out of the two options, boosting for ANY length of time, and interacting with an interesting environment, I'll pick the interaction every time. If you aren't jumping on platforms, you should be exploring the level, collecting rings at your leisure, or bashing enemies. Moving forward is a means to an end; not the entertainment itself.