Are you happy with Seaside Hill Zone?

[Indigo Rush]

Ordinary city lights=/=crazy casino world.

I never claimed they were equal, simply that some of the same trends were present. And even so, Casino Night DLC is present, though obviously it doesn't quite do the job for you.

No, but it's still defined primarily as a city level. When nearly half the level list is taken up by variations of one theme (city, city at night, city in Europe, city on fire), you've got a problem.

When you break it down like that, then of course it doesn't sound varied. You're simply listening to the cover concept and not looking at everything offered.

The way I see it, there should have been no more than 2 entries of any theme, and one of them should've had some significant twist on it (such as Crisis City being a post-apocalyptic fireball of a city, rather than Speed Highway's "it's a city. Uhm...at night. Yeah.").

The problem with this is that more often than not, Sonic levels generally cross these themes together. There's no way to avoid overlap.

It's got nothing to do with natural vs manmade. No one equates Eggman's bases/factories/whatever with ordinary cities. I don't think anyone equates Casino Night with either of them.

So people are just picky then? Okay.

The point is variety, which the list is lacking.

It does have variety, you just refuse to accept the kind it offers.

Sonic Generations has a lot of city, but if you think all cities are the same, then you have a problem. None of these levels even look alike, what the heck is the issue? The only legitimate case that can be made is the checkered hillsides of Seaside Hill, and even that's being drowned out by stone ruins, sand and ocean.

[Legendary Emerald]

Sonic Generations has a lot of city, but if you think all cities are the same, then you have a problem. None of these levels even look alike, what the heck is the issue? The only legitimate case that can be made is the checkered hillsides of Seaside Hill, and even that's being drowned out by stone ruins, sand and ocean.

You deserve a medal. With such a clear, concise thought like this now existing in the topic, there isn't anything more I need to say.

[Diogenes]

No... no, its not. No one should want to play through the same generic locations over and over again in their platforming games. That's stagnation and lack of creativity.

Variety is stagnation now.

...

Today is the day the English language died.

Look at what happened to Sonic 2006; it did every trope there is, and the levels were boring as hell as far as design goes. It hardly looked like a Sonic game. I could just as easily see Taz in there. Hell, Pink Panther even.

Because '06 is a shitty game, and it'd be a shitty game no matter what kind of environments they chose.

As for "doubly", no.

Yes. A game meant to celebrate the entire run of a series should have a diverse selection of levels, to celebrate all the different kinds of places Sonic has gone through.

Diversity IS a good thing. And Sonic Generations is VERY diverse,

No it isn't.

WITHOUT relying on tropes! This should be encouraged, rather than demonized.

You keep focusing on tropes, but you don't seem to realize Generations is still using tropes, just a more limited selection of them.

I get that you don't want every game to fall into the same "fire world, ice world, jungle world, etc" format, but the way to combat that is to create new kinds of levels, including a variety of different settings in each game, not to defend a game with a limited selection of locations.

[Spooky Mulder]

All this talk of checkered hills makes me hope SEGA just decides to apply a checkerboard pattern to the blue mountains on Planet Wisp. I'd laugh...hard.

[i don't like pie]

You keep focusing on tropes

he's not the only one

Edited August 10, 2011 by i don't like pie

[Diogenes]

I never claimed they were equal, simply that some of the same trends were present.

It's not even comparable. They're two different tropes.

When you break it down like that, then of course it doesn't sound varied. You're simply listening to the cover concept and not looking at everything offered.

I'm well aware that they are all different takes on the city trope. But in terms of 20 years of Sonic, it's a piss-poor representation of the variety in the series.

The problem with this is that more often than not, Sonic levels generally cross these themes together. There's no way to avoid overlap.

Even if you can't eliminate all overlap (which I question), you can reduce it far more than what Generations has. I suggested earlier having no more than 2 of each trope, with the second being a significant variation of it. I find that to be more than reasonable.

So people are just picky then? Okay.

If you don't have any interest in an actual discussion, you may as well not post.

Sonic Generations has a lot of city, but if you think all cities are the same, then you have a problem.

No, I don't think every city is the same. But for someone who's traveled all over the world, exploring so many different places, to celebrate all of that with almost half the game devoted to cities is really fucking lame. There's so many amazing locations left out because they chose levels that are somewhat different rather than wholly different.

[Legendary Emerald]

I get that you don't want every game to fall into the same "fire world, ice world, jungle world, etc" format, but the way to combat that is to create new kinds of levels, including a variety of different settings in each game, not to defend a game with a limited selection of locations.

Trust me, I understand that too. But Generations is not the game to do that. It is to celebrate existing levels in Sonic history, not create new levels. Creating new levels is what Sonic Colors did, to great effect. And the game after Generations will likely strive to do so as well.

If every Sonic GAME has the "variety" you want, with all or most tropes present, then there is no variety in the SERIES. That's what I meant by stagnation.

Sonic Generations is using a handful of tropes and reusing them throughout its level list, as you said. But the levels it has chosen are ones that vastly different aesthetically from one another, despite having shared qualities of green grass and buildings. There is still plenty of diversity. Just not the kind that you recognize.

Edit: Here's something I just thought of. In 2009 there was a game which had only one environment and one trope shown throughout the entire playthrough, with only uniqueness of design separating one area from the next. It was called Bioshock. It was game of the year.

It isn't about using every environment possible. Its about doing the environments you do choose in an exemplary way.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Legendary Emerald

[Indigo Rush]

It's not even comparable. They're two different tropes.

I'm not arguing the "pinball" element, but the "sparkling" element.

I'm well aware that they are all different takes on the city trope. But in terms of 20 years of Sonic, it's a piss-poor representation of the variety in the series.

Did it occur to you that the main focus wasn't variety, but the "best of" from each game? The most memorable levels, in the context of this game, get first dibs. I'm honestly surprised Emerald Coast didn't make it, so it's great that the variety is already this good. It's not like we have the first level of every game represented here.

Even if you can't eliminate all overlap (which I question), you can reduce it far more than what Generations has. I suggested earlier having no more than 2 of each trope, with the second being a significant variation of it. I find that to be more than reasonable.

See the memory/trope argument above.

If you don't have any interest in an actual discussion, you may as well not post.

Where the heck did you get that notion? I make one comment like that and you assume the worst of me. What valor.

No, I don't think every city is the same. But for someone who's traveled all over the world, exploring so many different places, to celebrate all of that with almost half the game devoted to cities is really fucking lame. There's so many amazing locations left out because they chose levels that are somewhat different rather than wholly different.

See the memory/trope argument above.

No it isn't.

It does have variety, you just refuse to accept the kind it offers.

while(same old) {

printf("Infinite Loop\argument");

}

Edited August 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Nepenthe]

I'm annoyed that even after all of that grand discussion we had and all the dream lists we drew up ourselves and together in this forum, we're now saying recurring locales don't even matter anymore because the secondary tropes and Sonic Team's free reign to mess with the existing designs cover all of the holes. Not only is this false, but the logic itself completely renders the ability to determine the quality of their choices irrelevant. The list could've literally been nothing but all of Eggman's bases and yet every choice still would've been rationally sound because, hey, you can throw a lava pit into Final Egg and bingo- You have your precious fire trope!

Second, both sides are ignoring another key aspect of the debate: How one feels about the actual levels themselves. All of the Sky Sanctuary trolling that went on during the initial leaks was partly because Sky Sanctuary is many people's favorite level and they wanted to see it expanded on and remade in HD regardless of the tropes it filled. Well, I didn't want to see Sky Sanctuary. I wanted Hydrocity. That's my favorite level, and I'm disappointed not to see it given some due justice, but the moment I say that I'm told to clam up because "Sega couldn't please everybody" and "it's not about what I want" despite the fact that those some people were in many ways directly catered to by the decisions made.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

Trust me, I understand that too. But Generations is not the game to do that. It is to celebrate existing levels in Sonic history, not create new levels. Creating new levels is what Sonic Colors did, to great effect. And the game after Generations will likely strive to do so as well.

This is true. Which is why I don't understand why you're so opposed to seeing common tropes in the game most suited to reusing them.

If every Sonic GAME has the "variety" you want, with all or most tropes present, then there is no variety in the SERIES. That's what I meant by stagnation.

Not if you create new tropes, not if you vary which tropes you use (not every game needs an ice level, but ice levels should occur every few games).

Sonic Generations is using a handful of tropes and reusing them throughout its level list, as you said. But the levels it has chosen are ones that vastly different aesthetically from one another, despite having shared qualities of green grass and buildings. There is still plenty of diversity. Just not the kind that you recognize.

It's a piss-poor diversity for a game celebrating the entire series. It's like you keep looking at this like it's a solitary game, without considering its role in the series.

[Legendary Emerald]

It's like you keep looking at this like it's a solitary game, without considering its role in the series.

I can't believe its taken me this many years to have to say this to a Sonic fan, but...

Dude... it's just a game.

It is a solitary game. Not replacing the games that came before it. Not setting the trend for the games after it. A single, one-off game. If it weren't for the game having a plot, we would be considering it a spinoff.

Is it also a celebration of Sonic history? Yes. And it is doing a great job from everything I've seen and heard.

[Sonictrainer]

No... no, its not. No one should want to play through the same generic locations over and over again in their platforming games. That's stagnation and lack of creativity. Look at what happened to Sonic 2006; it did every trope there is, and the levels were boring as hell as far as design goes.

Edited August 10, 2011 by STrainer

[ハリネズミ]

It's sad how people are fighting over all this instead of celebrating the hedgehog we know and love. Look at what happened to Spyro Dragon and Crash Bandicoot, Sonic is still going strong after all these years. Every stage in this game will be fun because they are re-imagined, classic Acts of modern stages could be based of Genesis levels too. How do you know Seaside Hill classic will not be like Labyrinth? How do you know Crisis City classic will not be like Lava Reef? A lot of love is put into this title, celebrate and enjoy the anniversary of our favorite most famous hedgehog instead of arguing over unimportant matters.

[Legendary Emerald]

Yet, me as well as many others are looking forward to playing Crisis City in Generations.

Show me a level where the you run through the remains of a city that's standing above a magma and is being inhabited by fire creatures, in any other Sonic game. Or a tornado carrying a car.

Seriously, does anyone believe that Crisis City is boring because it's a city level?

[i don't like pie]

It's sad how people are fighting over all this instead of celebrating the hedgehog we know and love. Look at what happened to Spyro Dragon and Crash Bandicoot, Sonic is still going strong after all these years. Every stage in this game will be fun because they are re-imagined, classic Acts of modern stages could be based of Genesis levels too. How do you know Seaside Hill classic will not be like Labyrinth? How do you know Crisis City classic will not be like Lava Reef? A lot of love is put into this title, celebrate and enjoy the anniversary of our favorite most famous hedgehog instead of arguing over unimportant matters.

this would be the smart thing to do

but prolly not what were going to do

[Nepenthe]

celebrate and enjoy the anniversary of our favorite most famous hedgehog instead of arguing over unimportant matters.

I guess going batshit insane for just about everything that's been revealed but the level list, partaking in image spam during said reveals, and being ready and willing to travel to a local demonstration to play the game early isn't enough to be considered celebratory anymore?

[thatguyfrom03]

Seaside Hill is just one piece of a puzzle worth of complaints I have with the stage list. If my dream stage list came and Seaside Hill happened to be on it, I wouldn't give the slightest damn about it. "Heroes sucked anyway YEAAAH HYDROCITY, SKY DECK, WHOOO!" You can't address the part without attacking the whole. Hence how this topic is now about the entire list.

[Indigo Rush]

Seriously, does anyone believe that Crisis City is boring because it's a city level?

They don't necessarily find it boring, they just stop at "City" and say there isn't enough to help it stand out from the rest.

It's sad how people are fighting over all this instead of celebrating the hedgehog we know and love. Look at what happened to Spyro Dragon and Crash Bandicoot, Sonic is still going strong after all these years. Every stage in this game will be fun because they are re-imagined, classic Acts of modern stages could be based of Genesis levels too. How do you know Seaside Hill classic will not be like Labyrinth? How do you know Crisis City classic will not be like Lava Reef? A lot of love is put into this title, celebrate and enjoy the anniversary of our favorite most famous hedgehog instead of arguing over unimportant matters.

Totally agree with this. To think the euphoria of Classic Sonic's return as well as his gameplay would be so quickly swept under the rug in the face of an apparent diversity issue.

As for the raging debate on level diversity, okay, fine: there are a lot of city levels. Is it a problem? It only is if you make it one. To make it a problem, you have to try and ignore what made those levels special.

I don't just see a city, but I see Speed Highway, the fastest and coolest city downtown, with beautiful lights.

I don't just see a city, but I see City Escape, the level that starts off with Sonic jumping from a helicopter and inventing a new friggin' sport, running from the fuzz

I don't just see a city, but I see Rooftop Run, the timeless and downright breathtaking architecture of Italy retooled for the Sonic world

I don't just see a city, but I see Crisis City, the burning town with lava and destruction, making way for an exciting fight for survival

Each level was picked on the basis of memorability, value to the representative game, and fan favoritism. Once that's done, they diversify the level in any way they can to make each one as unique an experience as possible.

Despite that, certain fan favorites won't make it, and glaring diversity will have to take a backseat. It's not that big an issue though. If you think it is, then that's your prerogative. I'd like to see people happy for once, but that is obviously not possible. I'm done with this argument. Folks like Diogenes and Blue Blood (among many others) can stay in the negative, they've made their choice to abhor what would otherwise have been an amazing experience that I know they would have loved.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Nepenthe]

I don't think trying to explain why we feel the way we do against rebuttals and unnecessary broad accusations that we find nothing redeemable about the game because of the levels is "making a big deal out of it." Only one person here has ever said anything radical about the level list- that being that he wouldn't purchase the game because of it- and as far as I can tell, he hasn't even participated in this discussion.

[Voyant]

I'm going to laugh when they reveal Seaside Hill/Ocean Palace and its the most amazing level shown yet and completely blows our minds..

People were going to complain about whatever stages were selected. They just took the safe route this time with the most "Iconic Stages" because its honestly a pretty smart move considering that all the stages are very recognizable and memorable.

People yet again are forgetting that when making games they still have casuals and the regular folk to please....not JUST us.

P.S

We have really dug this discussion to the ground an I personally believe that its something that we should move on from. The stages were selected...and we know what to expect. All that's left is how these stages are executed because in the end... that's all that really matters.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Voyant

[Vec]

Green Hill: Well, a hill full of greenery

Chemical Plant: An industry

Sky Sanctuary: Ancient floating ruins

Speed Highway: Most of it takes place on a highway

City Escape: A city based on San Francisco, full of downward streets and a truck that wants you dead

Seaside Hill: BEACH TIME!...with some ruins according to the demo pic

Crisis City: It may be a city, but it's most relevant caracteristic is it's full of lava and it's a post-apocalyptic place

Rooftop Run: An european city. With old architecture and 'lol trees on roofs' you go through roofs in some parts (hence the name )

Planet Wisp: A base in the middle of lots of greenery in an alien planet

That's how I see it

[Djawed]

Second, both sides are ignoring another key aspect of the debate: How one feels about the actual levels themselves. All of the Sky Sanctuary trolling that went on during the initial leaks was partly because Sky Sanctuary is many people's favorite level and they wanted to see it expanded on and remade in HD regardless of the tropes it filled. Well, I didn't want to see Sky Sanctuary. I wanted Hydrocity. That's my favorite level, and I'm disappointed not to see it given some due justice, but the moment I say that I'm told to clam up because "Sega couldn't please everybody" and "it's not about what I want" despite the fact that those some people were in many ways directly catered to by the decisions made.

I think another thing that's blamable is how they decided modern sonic from the dreamcast and contemporary era to both be different. Everyone can agree that the recreations of classic sonic have looked gorgeous so far.... both times (I guess theres just one to go). Hydrocity or Ice cap woul've been the Icing on the cake. As a very important aspect of the game, it's like they just didn't put too much thought into this. It's even more sad because this was a one in 20 years oppurtunity.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Jaouad

[Raging Raven]

Yes. I am "happy" with Seaside Hill.

If every Stage in the game would be on my wishlist it would get kind of boring again.

There has to be a Stage you hate the most and a Stage you really like. If there are only favourites it is really hard to decide which Stage you really hate or like.

The "surprise effect" would be gone if everything is predicted anyway.

[i don't like pie]

I think another thing that's blamable is how they decided modern sonic from the dreamcast and contemporary era to both be different. Everyone can agree that the recreations of classic sonic have looked gorgeous every.... both times (I guess theres just one to go). Hydrocity or Ice cap woul've been the Icing on the cake. As a very important aspect of the game, it's like they just didn't put too much thought into this. It's even more sad because this was a one in 20 years oppurtunity.

"twenty years of fighting over nothing"

[Sami]

It feels weird not caring enough to get in a heated debate that goes the same way every time.