Sonic storylines

[Scar]

Ehm... No. That's not what Well-written means.

If I write a script that is downright terrible, it can still be without plotholes.

Example:

That was sure as hell not well-written, but there was no plotholes.

Plot holes are a part of it. I addressed the issue of script writing anyway.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Scar

[Tobbii]

Plot holes are a part of it. I addressed the issue of script writing anyway.

Well okay, I thought you were implying that well written = no plotholes. My bad.

[Marcello]

Well-written implies that there were no plotholes (which there weren't - no Yacker dissappearing for half the game is not a plothole). There were no plotholes in Colours.

The actual dialogue, whilst admittedly cheesy, was miles ahead of the cheese that came from Sonic's mouth in the past. There was actual characterisation (albeit, its direction was debateable).

Yes, I'd say it was pretty well-written.

In fact, its actually astonishingly good, considering how the writers of the dialogue had no previous experience in dealing with Sonic.

"Characterisation" as you call it was just everyone constantly making jokes. Whether it was enjoyable or not, it wasn't very good characterisation. Then there was the whole starting plot threads, but not doing anything with them (Tails being mind controlled, mind control in general, Yacker disappearing etc).

The actual dialogue being miles ahead of what came in the past is an opinion, so it can't be used as an argument if something is well-written.

[Vertekins]

The script of Colours was poor taking into account Sonic & Tails' past characterization. The script just reeks of being written by people who really have no clue how Sonic & Tails talk.

Do point out to me where Tails had to make use of Sonic's "Vocalbulary" in past games in order to portray that the Hedgehog has rubbed-off on him. Not that Sonic EVER has said the likes of "Dude", you know, to make him more "Rad" despite the fact he never needed to talk like that to put across his coolness. The fact is never. For Tails to suddenly develop an extremely pronounced deadpan snarkiness and skepticism is wildly out of character because it's established that he believes in Sonic's competence and it's vice-versa. Yes, the kid has grown up a bit, has probably gotten so used to Sonic's heroics that it is unexceptional to him these days as evidenced by how he was more concerned about Tropical Resort's shopping facilities rather than how Sonic just destroyed a robot but portraying that impartial-ness by making Tails a deadpan snarker is NOT believable character development IMO.

I honestly do not believe that Tails would convincingly become someone who would be very eager to pull-up/belittle Sonic. He's become used to Sonic's antics but he doesn't strike me as a kid who would derive a kind of smugness out of bringing Sonic back down to earth or boast about his utility in the mission in such a snarky way. Yes, he'd chirp-up about the role he played but certainly not like how he did in Colours.

And that leads me onto another point; Sonic's "It was all me!" attitude.

In the past, Sonic has never been one to hog the glory. He wasn't so arrogant as to proclaim that it was he who did all the work, as evidenced by him personally thanking both Tails and Knuckles in Heroes after defeating the Egg Emperor. Sonic does not forget the efforts of his mates and whilst Sonic acknowledged Tails' usefulness in Colours, he shouldn't have had to have Tails REMIND him about what Tails did to help.

I may be over-analyzing but damn, despite me adoring Sonic and Tails' bromance in Colours, some things really rubbed me the wrong way.

[Scar]

"Characterisation" as you call it was just everyone constantly making jokes.

That's a generalisation.

Watch the cutscenes again. There was a greater focus on humour (given the target audience), but it certainly wasn't all jokes. The characterisation was nigh-on perfect with Eggman, and Tails' and Sonic's relationship was actually explored in a way that had never been done before. Up until that point, Tails was just a complete 'yes-man'. In Colours they behaved like friends and didn't always come to an agreement. That is characterisation.

Whether it was enjoyable or not, it wasn't very good characterisation. Then there was the whole starting plot threads, but not doing anything with them (Tails being mind controlled, mind control in general, Yacker disappearing etc).

Tails' being mind-controlled was terminated at the end of that very cutscene. The effect wore off by the end of the scene. Where else is there to go with that plot thread. The mind-control thing was followed through, considering the fact that the whole of Tropical Resort and Terminal Velocity were essentially the "gun" that was going to be used to fire the Mind-control weapon onto the planet. There is Yackers' disappearance, which I will grant you is a forgotten thread.

The actual dialogue being miles ahead of what came in the past is an opinion, so it can't be used as an argument if something is well-written.

Fair enough, but then the dialogue cannot be cited as example that the plot wasn't well written.

EDIT:

Do point out to me where Tails had to make use of Sonic's "Vocalbulary" in past games in order to portray that the Hedgehog has rubbed-off on him. Not that Sonic EVER has said the likes of "Dude", you know, to make him more "Rad" despite the fact he never needed to talk like that to put across his coolness. The fact is never.

"Aww yeah! This is happenin'" - Sonic Adventure 1998 (Sonic attempting to be cool)

Sonic may not have used the word "dude" before, but that doesn't mean he cannot use it. Likewise with Tails. People use the term 'dude' when talking to each other quite often. It wasn't an attempt to sound cool. Its a common phrase in today's language. What's wrong with it?

For Tails to suddenly develop an extremely pronounced deadpan snarkiness and skepticism is wildly out of character because it's established that he believes in Sonic's competence and it's vice-versa. Yes, the kid has grown up a bit, has probably gotten so used to Sonic's heroics that it is unexceptional to him these days as evidenced by how he was more concerned about Tropical Resort's shopping facilities rather than how Sonic just destroyed a robot but portraying that impartial-ness by making Tails a deadpan snarker is NOT believable character development IMO.

He didn't come across as a dead-pan snarker to me. The only scene he came across that way, was when Sonic was talking to a dead-robot. In which case, he had full right to be sarchastic and snarky towards Sonic.

I honestly do not believe that Tails would convincingly become someone who would be very eager to pull-up/belittle Sonic. He's become used to Sonic's antics but he doesn't strike me as a kid who would derive a kind of smugness out of bringing Sonic back down to earth or boast about his utility in the mission in such a snarky way. Yes, he'd chirp-up about the role he played but certainly not like how he did in Colours.

Just because Tails hasn't done it before, doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't do it. I can understand if he had said something completely out of whack like: "Where's that DAMN fourth Tractor-Beam Generator" (althought that would have been an utterly brilliant parody of Shadow).

Also, I'm missing something here. Outside of the "Talking to Dead Robots" incident, when has Tails ever been shown to be going out of his way to belittle Sonic. Again Sonic deserved the treatment he got from Tails at the time.

I think its more believable for Tails to actually even bother to be smug about bringing Sonic back to reality, than for him to show no emotional response from doing so at all. Tails simply cannot just be completely neutral. He too has pride and an ego (albeit a small one), he's a character just as much as anybody else.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Scar

[Kuzu]

Do point out to me where Tails had to make use of Sonic's "Vocalbulary" in past games in order to portray that the Hedgehog has rubbed-off on him. Not that Sonic EVER has said the likes of "Dude", you know, to make him more "Rad" despite the fact he never needed to talk like that to put across his coolness. The fact is never. For Tails to suddenly develop an extremely pronounced deadpan snarkiness and skepticism is wildly out of character because it's established that he believes in Sonic's competence and it's vice-versa. Yes, the kid has grown up a bit, has probably gotten so used to Sonic's heroics that it is unexceptional to him these days as evidenced by how he was more concerned about Tropical Resort's shopping facilities rather than how Sonic just destroyed a robot but portraying that impartial-ness by making Tails a deadpan snarker is NOT believable character development IMO.

[Vertekins]

Hm, point taken. Yeah, I suppose Sonic and Tails have developed their brotherlyness to the point that they can playfully rib each other. I guess that this development was so....sudden that I got the wrong end of the stick concerning it.

I still stand by my point that Sonic was Flanderized in Colours though. Though admittedly Sonic has been Flanderized before by other writers. See Shadow the Hedgehog for a particularly good example(s);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nN9nPjiYA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6skdWravHyU&feature=related

Look at how Sonic acts like an hyperactive kid. It's like character exaggeration that takes Sonic's lighthearted and perky character attributes and exaggerates them to provide a huge contrast to Shadow's serious/no-nonsense demeanor instead of a subtle one. That really didn't gel well with me personally.

[Diogenes]

Honestly I think Sonic is fine in those scenes. It's everything else that's stupid.

I mean, "hyperactive kid" isn't exactly an inaccurate description of Sonic (though it's an insufficient one). He lives for adventure, and he's pumped at the opportunity to fight some evil aliens. The little hop in the first video is kind of dumb, but otherwise I'd call it a better characterization than Heroes or '06.

[sonfan1984]

The script of Colours was poor taking into account Sonic & Tails' past characterization. The script just reeks of being written by people who really have no clue how Sonic & Tails talk.

Edited May 19, 2011 by sonfan1984

[DC111]

That's a generalisation.

Watch the cutscenes again. There was a greater focus on humour (given the target audience), but it certainly wasn't all jokes. The characterisation was nigh-on perfect with Eggman, and Tails' and Sonic's relationship was actually explored in a way that had never been done before. Up until that point, Tails was just a complete 'yes-man'. In Colours they behaved like friends and didn't always come to an agreement. That is characterisation.

Edited May 19, 2011 by DC111

[Tobbii]

Actually, this kind of puts things into perspective for me. I can get past flanderization. What bothers me above all else is just that: Colors Sonic is just full of himself. If they could keep him cocky and confident WITHOUT that element, I'd be cool with it.

[Scar]

That is development on a RELATIONAL level, but that is not individual characterization. I loved most of Sonic and Tails's interaction in Colors. But that does not mean Sonic himself was characterized well.

[DC111]

No its pretty hit and miss in Colours. But again, I emphasise that its a first attempt, and for a first attempt they did brilliantly. I'm glad they kept these writers, because once they nail Sonic's personality, then all shall be well. Given their resume, I'm pretty sure they can handle serious scenes just as well has the comedy.

All things considering, I agree that it was a good first shot. And I indeed hope they do nail Sonic in the future.

That's not really a problem with the games' story. Its because Sonic Team don't have the balls to make a scene where Sonic and Tails fight. I'm sure the writers would have been more than willing to accomodate when writing the script.

Touche.

Its not a plothole. Its just something that wasn't and admittedly should have been addressed. A plot hole is a significant error in the plot such as one of the Emeralds in Sonic 06, which was stuck in an ontological loop somewhere.

I just always thought of plotholes as... well... holes in the plot, regardless of whether or not they were errors or unfinished bits of story.

Ugh, just thinking about that Emerald loop makes my head feel like it wants to...

/cwutididthere

Edited May 19, 2011 by DC111

[Sanek ULF]

Hahaha, yes, god yes. It's garbage from start to finish. Only good moment in the story is at the start of Sonic's story, where he knocks over that one robot by tapping it with his foot. Everything else? Send it to the incinerator, then burn the ashes.

[Mega]

I like Colors Sonic, 'flanderization' or not. He reminds me of SatAM Sonic with a little less 90's camp, and since I grew up with the SatAM personality, that's what defines Sonic's character for me. That, and I found his characterization in most of the modern games to be pretty darn boring. The cockiness and ego help balance out his positive traits-- it's good for a protagonist to have flaws.

[Kuzu]

I don't agreed. I never forget Sonic's words: "Nothing starts until you take action". They are very hepling me in the real life, when I doubting in myself.

Yeah, that's one moment in a pile of crappy ones, it hardly stands out, its a good line, but again, it hardly stands out.

[sonfan1984]

I like Colors Sonic, 'flanderization' or not. He reminds me of SatAM Sonic with a little less 90's camp, and since I grew up with the SatAM personality, that's what defines Sonic's character for me. That, and I found his characterization in most of the modern games to be pretty darn boring. The cockiness and ego help balance out his positive traits-- it's good for a protagonist to have flaws.

I agree. Before the Sonic Adventure games, I was a fan of the cartoons and Archie Sonic comics more so then the games so I was delighted when Sonic had some of that attitude he had from the 90's cartoons.

Edited May 26, 2011 by sonfan1984

[Scar]

The only thing I want improved is, making Sonic a little more mysterious (i.e, we know fuck all about him, and he's the main character. There should be moments where his actions are shady/questionable), and he should be smarter than he was in Colours; a greater emphasis on how well he knows Robotnik and how he plans his actions against him, ahead of time. Also a little bit of "Knows more than he's letting on". He's bee using the Chaos Emeralds for a long time now, he should be fairly well versed with some of the mythology. Not as much as Knuckles, but well enough. Likewise, he should be fairly comptetant in dealing with mechanics/technology, again, not to the same level as Tails, but well enough to be able to perform basic repairs. After all the original Tornado was Sonic's plane.

[Dark Qiviut]

I like Colors Sonic, 'flanderization' or not. He reminds me of SatAM Sonic with a little less 90's camp, and since I grew up with the SatAM personality, that's what defines Sonic's character for me. That, and I found his characterization in most of the modern games to be pretty darn boring. The cockiness and ego help balance out his positive traits-- it's good for a protagonist to have flaws.

I loved SatAM, too, but the last thing I wanna see is to have SatAM Sonic's character in my games. Both SatAM Sonic and Game Sonic have complete different personalities, so seeing that hybrid in Colors Wii (Western script) felt horribly out of place. Colors Wii's Sonic had too much attitude.

And just because cockiness is featured doesn't make it a "flaw." It only becomes one when it comes back to bite him hard on the backside. With the exception of one cutscene (with one tiny retort), his negative connotations (like his arrogance) had absolutely no comeuppance in SCWii.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Attitude Adjustment

[Kuzu]

I loved SatAM, too, but the last thing I wanna see is to have SatAM Sonic's character in my games. Both SatAM Sonic and Game Sonic have complete different personalities, so seeing that hybrid in Colors Wii (Western script) felt horribly out of place. Colors Wii's Sonic had too much attitude.

And just because cockiness is featured doesn't make it a "flaw." It only becomes one when it comes back to bite him hard on the backside. With the exception of one cutscene (with one tiny retort), his negative connotations (like his arrogance) had absolutely no comeuppance in SCWii.

[Scar]

Yeah, I think Sonic should be a little morally questionable.

At first, you don't really understand why he's behaving in such a way, or doing certain things, and it sort of un-nerves you for a bit, until towards the end, where you finally realise what Sonic's intentions and thought processes were.

That would certainly make a much more unique protagonist, than he currently is. Mix that together with his cockiness and thrill-seeker attitude and you've got a pretty great character. Add in that sense of mystere (we know more about Shadow than we do about Sonic...it should stay that way). Throw in some well-rounded intelligence (i.e good with tech, but not Tails-level, and good with mythology, but not Knux-level) and Sonic would be perfect.

In all honesty, I think Sonic should be the smartest character in the series. He's faced Eggman the most, he's been basically roaming around the whole world for most of his life. This would make him the wiser or at least more experienced character. He can sociallise easily due to his roaming around like the wind, and he's experienced in fight situations. His experience in dealing with Robotnik could be used to portray him as a good tactician, when he needs to co-ordinate his little posse, when they're in danger of Eggman, or when they're infiltrating his Headquarters/Base.

Tails may be really clever, but him being considerably younger than Sonic, would make him more naive. Sure keep that snarky, witty side that he had in Colours, but certain actions Sonic takes and certain situations (particularly when dealing with mystical ruins and mythological things) should confuse him. He thinks too logically, and not laterally. That would make Tails a much more balanced character, and not the Wise-man set up he has now.

That having been said, if Sonic were to have all those qualities, he would be pretty much un-flappable. So naturally one of his weaknesses should be his shifty behaviour. He often does wild and seemingly dangerous or morally questionable things, which sometimes confuse and alienate Sonic's friends. His cockiness and eagerness to take risks, should also land him in serious trouble, before paying off at the end.

Most of all, though he should be a lovable character, inspite of his flaws and even inspite of his strengths (because sometimes, a character with too many strengths is unrelatable). He's succeptible to insults and witty banter, and even the occasional outburst, to show that he isn't completely unflappable.

I've gone into far too much detail here haven't I.

[Your Vest Friend]

Maybe I'm remembering complete bullshit, but isn't Sonic described as pretty anti-social despite being rather outgoing?

On the whole, I know he technically does what he thinks is right and not what the standard moral code would say is right necessarily, but I don't think being a vigilante who's actions even alienate his friends works for Sonic.

[Scar]

Maybe I'm remembering complete bullshit, but isn't Sonic described as pretty anti-social despite being rather outgoing?

On the whole, I know he technically does what he thinks is right and not what the standard moral code would say is right necessarily, but I don't think being a vigilante who's actions even alienate his friends works for Sonic.

Perhapse not alienate, but piss-off. As in sometimes something Sonic does may anger Knuckles or something like that. Nothing too game-changing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In all honesty, I think Sonic should be the smartest character in the series. He's faced Eggman the most, he's been basically roaming around the whole world for most of his life. This would make him the wiser or at least more experienced character. He can sociallise easily due to his roaming around like the wind, and he's experienced in fight situations. His experience in dealing with Robotnik could be used to portray him as a good tactician, when he needs to co-ordinate his little posse, when they're in danger of Eggman, or when they're infiltrating his Headquarters/Base.

Edited May 27, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Isn't the whole "Alienating his Friends" thing one of the plot points for X? Sonic knew what Eggman was up to, and decided to take action, while everyone else was still in the dark and pretty pissed off about his actions, it all culminated into Knuckles confronting Sonic on the matter leading to another fight between the two.

I actually did like that, no one knew what Sonic was thinking, and why he was doing what he was doing, and Knuckles called him out on keeping things to himself, and said Sonic should've just said something about it, though to be fair Sonic thought it was obvious.

I'm not sure how I feel about that in the games though, I mean I don't mind if its once in a while, but Sonic being smarter than everyone else, doesn't sit well with me, because it doesn't deter from people thinking he has TOO many posistive traits as opposed to negative.

Also like CSS said, while Sonic may fight Eggman the most, his "plan" pretty much comes down to "Rush in, Smash Robots, Beat Eggman, The End" I doubt Sonic even has the patience for a well thought out plan, preferring to just do things his own way.