Sonic storylines

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

OK fine.What i don't understand is the attitude many fans like DC111 seem to have:

"What? No deep story? = Game automatically sucks!"

Edited May 18, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Vertekins]

Knock off the strawman, because that is not what he said.

Re-read what he wrote. No where in there will you find the words "Game automatically sucks" anywhere in his post. He was talking about the story and the story ALONE. It is pretty straightforward dude.

His words are that he wants the most satisfying story ever in a Sonic game that combines the best of all worlds of the previous stories in Sonic games. Now find where he says or implies that the game would suck because there aren't any deep stories.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Verte

[Sami]

That's exactly how I feel like.

Notice the parallel between Black Doom's temptation and Mephiles's temptation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeioYk89btw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iQQoxWFcrM&feature=related

Both villains showed him an event happened in a different time, and used similar arguments to manipulate Shadow, but the second time he shows much greater maturity and resolve, seeing through Mephile's trick.

Another thing I really liked about Shadow's part of the story was how much interaction and development there was between members of Team Dark, reaching its peak in

that showed yet more change in Shadow's personality, who went from being an absolute loner to making and trusting close friends.

And the final part of the side-story was just perfect, as Shadow's mind is made up, he has trust in his allies and faces Mephiles in character-defining

The storyline of Sonic06 might've contained a good numbers of plot holes and out-of-character moments, but Shadow's part was spot on and really well thought out, truly one of the pinnacles of the series in my eyes.

Here's hoping we'll see more of these in-depth moments in future Sonic games, once they're done with this obsession of removing plots and characters, as if they were the cause of the bad quality of games...

Oh GOD, I hope not. Every time Sonic Team tries to give me a deep, thought inducing story, all I get is a shallow, boring story that makes me want to smash my head into a wall whenever someone starts crying about how amazing it was. Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Not fucking Solid Snake. They've never done serious stories right, and hopefully they never try again. Even if they pull it off well, it would be so ridiculously un-Sonic that the majority of the fanbase, plus the rest of the gaming media, will think of Sonic stories as one of those that tries too hard to be cool. ... Again.

[pppp]

Oh GOD, I hope not. Every time Sonic Team tries to give me a deep, thought inducing story, all I get is a shallow, boring story that makes me want to smash my head into a wall whenever someone starts crying about how amazing it was. Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Not fucking Solid Snake. They've never done serious stories right, and hopefully they never try again. Even if they pull it off well, it would be so ridiculously un-Sonic that the majority of the fanbase, plus the rest of the gaming media, will think of Sonic stories as one of those that tries too hard to be cool. ... Again.

^This.We should form a Sonic Colors fanclub Dissident

[ilcane87]

Oh GOD, I hope not. Every time Sonic Team tries to give me a deep, thought inducing story, all I get is a shallow, boring story that makes me want to smash my head into a wall whenever someone starts crying about how amazing it was. Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Not fucking Solid Snake. They've never done serious stories right, and hopefully they never try again. Even if they pull it off well, it would be so ridiculously un-Sonic that the majority of the fanbase, plus the rest of the gaming media, will think of Sonic stories as one of those that tries too hard to be cool. ... Again.

That is entirely your opinion, claims like "it would be un-Sonic" are completely out of place, because every fan has his very own idea of what Sonic is and what Sonic games should be like, and everyone is equally entitled to be heard and satisfied, which I feel hasn't been happening for a while to fans of Adventure-like games.

And frankly, I couldn't care less about the thoughts of the gaming media.

On a side note, sorry for the OT I caused, we should go back to discussing the storyline of Sonic06... it seems about half of the active topics becomes a classic vs. modern discussion nowadays. '

[sonfan1984]

And frankly, I couldn't care less about the thoughts of the gaming media.

I do. After Sonic 06, the Sonic series and the fans is mostly the laughing stock when it comes to the gaming media. I want Sonic to have a really good reputation again. I miss when Sonic used to be a respected franchise.

Edited May 18, 2011 by sonfan1984

[DC111]

Oh GOD, I hope not. Every time Sonic Team tries to give me a deep, thought inducing story, all I get is a shallow, boring story that makes me want to smash my head into a wall whenever someone starts crying about how amazing it was. Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Not fucking Solid Snake. They've never done serious stories right, and hopefully they never try again. Even if they pull it off well, it would be so ridiculously un-Sonic that the majority of the fanbase, plus the rest of the gaming media, will think of Sonic stories as one of those that tries too hard to be cool. ... Again.

Edited May 18, 2011 by DC111

[Scar]

Honestly, I think none of us are entitled to be heard, because we know fuck-all about game design.

I say Sonic Team should say "Screw the fans, we have dreams for Sonic as well, we're making a Sonic game the way we want to".

Who knows, it may churn out the best Sonic game we've ever seen.

If it doesn't please you, tough luck, move on. Sonic Team doesn't exist to please you, I or anyone. Their job is the design a Sonic game, and they should be allowed to do so in whatever way they feel appropriate. Right now, it seems Sonic Team are just trying to please the many fans they have, which is an impossible task, because each group has their own preferences.

Instead of trying to please everyone, and wasting a load of money and time to do that, they should create the Sonic game they've always dreamed of. At the end of the day, Sonic Team are probably comprised of Sonic fans from back in the day.

/offtopic

To be on topic though.

I thought S06's story was definately a step too far down a road they shouldn't have treaded on. I don't mind a good story. I don't mind a deep story. But I do not want Sonic to turn into fucking Mario, saving the princess every 5 seconds. Nor do I want his supporting cast to be butchered, and either relegated to Sonic's butmonkey, token retard character, or a token Gun-toting "badass" character, or anything in between.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Scar

[Tobbii]

Right now, it seems Sonic Team are just trying to please the many fans they have, which is an impossible task, because each group has their own preferences.

I've been saying this for years. Sonic Team is always making adjustments and changing the coming game in a way that people demanded, yet it's never enough.

[DC111]

I was just using it as an example.

Currently (and since Sonic stories began), there is a distinct lack of subtlety. That is what is needed more than a deep/complex plot. Subtle themattic elements make you think more than constant exposition to create a facade of depth.

I agree that Sonic 2006 is not a great example of this. But I think Sonic Unleashed's plot had some of these subtle elements you're talking about. I'm reminded of a post Diogenes made a while back, in the 'Dark Sonic' topic...

Unleashed is quietly playing with this light-dark duality theme throughout the game, connecting darkness to Dark Gaia to negative energy to negative emotions (and likewise for the light-equivalents). The werehog is Sonic's quiet victory over darkness; even after having absorbed so much negative energy that he transforms into a monster when the sun goes down, he still retains his positive attitude, unlike many of the people he meets throughout the game. It's something you probably never even questioned, until the game brought it up and Chip explained how Sonic's will was too strong to be beaten.

Of course, he was discussing a totally different point than I am, but that post still pretty much mirrors what I was about to say in regards to subtlety.

Edited May 18, 2011 by DC111

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

DC111 is a she .

Oh...whoops.

Oh GOD, I hope not. Every time Sonic Team tries to give me a deep, thought inducing story, all I get is a shallow, boring story that makes me want to smash my head into a wall whenever someone starts crying about how amazing it was. Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast. Not fucking Solid Snake. They've never done serious stories right, and hopefully they never try again.

And the reason why is because the writers weren't competent enough to make the story entertaining. The simple solution here would be to find writers who are capable of making such a story entertaining, not to ditch it because they failed. Just because you fail at something doesn't mean you are permanently incapable of it.

Also, serious =/= deep. There are plenty of lighthearted games that are equally deep in respect to their series.

Even if they pull it off well, it would be so ridiculously un-Sonic that the majority of the fanbase, plus the rest of the gaming media, will think of Sonic stories as one of those that tries too hard to be cool. ... Again.

First off, Dissident, you can't speak or know anything for the majority of the fanbase. That much is established that there's always going to be those who like it and those who don't.

Secondly, what you're saying is that even if it they pulled it off and it was good it would be bad because it "un-Sonic"? Last I checked, good = good, and if they pulled it off the gaming media or portions of the fanbase who see the quality wouldn't be complaining about it for trying too hard to be cool. It would just be cool.

Trying too hard would be faking it and failing at it, and that wouldn't even be the case if they pulled it off.

[DC111]

Should I just rename this topic to Sonic storylines?

[RidersDX]

First off, Dissident, you can't speak or know anything for the majority of the fanbase. That much is established that there's always going to be those who like it and those who don't.

I second this. I mean, this topic alone makes the fanbase look pretty split.

[Scar]

Should I just rename this topic to Sonic storylines?

Sure.

Evidently, stories as a whole are popular discussion points in Sonic games. This way we won't have to worry about being off-topic.

[Kuzu]

I said it once, and I'll say it again. We need more stories like Unleashed, Lighthearted when it needs to be, and Serious when it needs to be. Why do people tend to overlook Unleashed's story so much? I think its Sonic's best story since SA2, given how much it didn't piss me off. If anything the only thing I would change is the cast of characters, Unleashed(And Colors to an extent) had good stories but given the severe lack of screentime to other characters; Sonic either comes off as a boring mute who rarely talks, or an overly obnoxious dude who has to talk to dead robots. Given Sonic's adventuring style he should intereact with more NPC's from time to time.

As for Colors, its pretty much the least I'd want my Sonic games to go lighthearted. I admit it was a breath of fresh air for people who were overly sick of the SRS BUISNESS stories, and the Monster of the Week robbing Eggman of the final boss role, it made Sonic & Tails more lively than ever(Yeah Sonic was flanderized, but dammit before Black Knight and Secret Rings he was a fun as a sack of shit). On the flipside it was shallow, and lifeless given there was almost nobody other than Sonic & Tails(Whom didn't much a huge role to begin with admittely). Mario is given a pass because he doesn't have the mythology that Sonic has(And most of it is reserved for spinoffs anyway) so he doesn't need a story, because can do just fine without one, Sonic on the other hand has a large cast of characters with different personalities and motives, and a pretty diverse mythology(Even as far back as the classics gave a hint at a deeper story), so when a game like Colors comes out, it feels like wasted potential because there's so much they could've done with it.

Hopefully Generations will settle the whole "Serious Story vs. Lighthearted Story" debate once and for all by having a great story with a decent cast of characters.

[DC111]

I said it once, and I'll say it again. We need more stories like Unleashed, Lighthearted when it needs to be, and Serious when it needs to be. Why do people tend to overlook Unleashed's story so much? I think its Sonic's best story since SA2, given how much it didn't piss me off. If anything the only thing I would change is the cast of characters, Unleashed(And Colors to an extent) had good stories but given the severe lack of screentime to other characters; Sonic either comes off as a boring mute who rarely talks, or an overly obnoxious dude who has to talk to dead robots. Given Sonic's adventuring style he should intereact with more NPC's from time to time.

As for Colors, its pretty much the least I'd want my Sonic games to go lighthearted. I admit it was a breath of fresh air for people who were overly sick of the SRS BUISNESS stories, and the Monster of the Week robbing Eggman of the final boss role, it made Sonic & Tails more lively than ever(Yeah Sonic was flanderized, but dammit before Black Knight and Secret Rings he was a fun as a sack of shit). On the flipside it was shallow, and lifeless given there was almost nobody other than Sonic & Tails(Whom didn't much a huge role to begin with admittely). Mario is given a pass because he doesn't have the mythology that Sonic has(And most of it is reserved for spinoffs anyway) so he doesn't need a story, because can do just fine without one, Sonic on the other hand has a large cast of characters with different personalities and motives, and a pretty diverse mythology(Even as far back as the classics gave a hint at a deeper story), so when a game like Colors comes out, it feels like wasted potential because there's so much they could've done with it.

Hopefully Generations will settle the whole "Serious Story vs. Lighthearted Story" debate once and for all by having a great story with a decent cast of characters.

This.

With Generations supposedly having a new nemesis and plot, it's a great opportunity for the Sonic franchise to have a story that totally owns. I don't know if I have enough faith in the new writers yet to say I think it WILL, but if they cut down on the flanderization and and give it a good effort, it's certainly possible.

Unleashed was probably my favorite game story-wise. I think it's really underrated, perhaps because of werehog. It had decent writing, great characterization, and occasional silly lightheartedness with Chip, yet didn't go overboard with it.

[Kuzu]

This.

With Generations supposedly having a new nemesis and plot, it's a great opportunity for the Sonic franchise to have a story that totally owns. I don't know if I have enough faith in the new writers yet to say I think it WILL, but if they cut down on the flanderization and and give it a good effort, it's certainly possible.

Unleashed was probably my favorite game story-wise. I think it's really underrated, perhaps because of werehog. It had decent writing, great characterization, and occasional silly lightheartedness with Chip, yet didn't go overboard with it.

To be honest I think the Mad World writers only write the dialouge(Unless I missed something) and the story is up to Sonic Team.

Personally I didn't mind the Flanderization, I like Sonic as a kind of wacky indivisual, something of Bugs Bunny esce character, matter of fact that's what I like about Sonic, he's wacky like Bugs Bunny, but has the Badassery of a Shonen Protagonist(I Hate to associate Sonic with Anime, but at this point...it may as well be a Shonen)

[DC111]

To be honest I think the Mad World writers only write the dialouge(Unless I missed something) and the story is up to Sonic Team.

Personally I didn't mind the Flanderization, I like Sonic as a kind of wacky indivisual, something of Bugs Bunny esce character, matter of fact that's what I like about Sonic, he's wacky like Bugs Bunny, but has the Badassery of a Shonen Protagonist(I Hate to associate Sonic with Anime, but at this point...it may as well be a Shonen)

I don't mind Sonic being a goof now and then, because he's always been that way (to a shorter extent anyway) but I think Colors went a bit over the top. All he did in that game was mouth off to stuff. Sonic's always been somewhat cocky, but in Colors I just found him to be outright full of himself.

The tone the Mad World writers brought to the series was probably a good move in terms of the popularity of the franchise. I will say I think they have a lot of potential... they got a lot of things right, like some of the humor, the interaction between Sonic and Tails, and pretty much everything that came out of Eggman's mouth. I just want them to relax a little bit with Sonic.

Edited May 19, 2011 by DC111

[Kuzu]

I don't mind Sonic being a goof now and then, because he's always been that way (to a shorter extent anyway) but I think Colors went a bit over the top. All he did in that game was mouth off to stuff. Sonic's always been somewhat cocky, but in Colors I just found him to be outright full of himself.

The tone the Mad World writers brought to the series was probably a good move in terms of the popularity of the franchise. I will say I think they have a lot of potential... they got a lot of things right, like some of the humor, the interaction between Sonic and Tails, and pretty much everything that came out of Eggman's mouth. I just want them to relax a little bit with Sonic.

[DC111]

Wait all you hated was him talking to dead robots? I like that scene because it shows Sonic isn't above being wacky and idiotic.

[Marcello]

Bollocks.

An removal of story would be Mario.

As lighthearted as Colours was, it had a much more of a plot than any Main series Mario game.

And as Lighthearted as Colours was, it still contained less plotholes than SA2, Shadow and 06. Complex story =/= Good story. Complex story =/= deep story (heck SA2 wasn't particularly deep to begin with, it was wide by shallow tbh).

I'd rather have a simple, well-written plot, like Colours; which made sense (in the context of Sonic), than a convoluted mess like 06.

Colors was not written very well. It was enjoyable, sure, but not well-written.

[The Weeb with No Name]

I always wondered how running and rolling through a beautifully cartoony series of verdant hills eventually lead to a desperate struggle against a terrorist's postmortem plot to have his horrific bioweapon jam a giant space station up its ass and kamikaze the planet in a bid to unleash apocalyptic devastation.

Seriously, what the fuck?

[Tobbii]

I always wondered how running and rolling through a beautifully cartoony series of verdant hills eventually lead to a desperate struggle against a terrorist's postmortem plot to have his horrific bioweapon jam a giant space station up its ass and kamikaze the planet in a bid to unleash apocalyptic devastation.

Seriously, what the fuck?

Well even the original Sonic had a plot about technology ruining that beautiful cartoony world. I still consider Scrap Brain Zone to be one of the most perfect examples of how serious Sonic 1 took some things, that place is scary.

[Scar]

Colors was not written very well. It was enjoyable, sure, but not well-written.

Well-written implies that there were no plotholes (which there weren't - no Yacker dissappearing for half the game is not a plothole). There were no plotholes in Colours.

The actual dialogue, whilst admittedly cheesy, was miles ahead of the cheese that came from Sonic's mouth in the past. There was actual characterisation (albeit, its direction was debateable).

Yes, I'd say it was pretty well-written.

In fact, its actually astonishingly good, considering how the writers of the dialogue had no previous experience in dealing with Sonic.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Scar

[Tobbii]

Well-written implies that there were no plotholes

Ehm... No. That's not what Well-written means.

If I write a script that is downright terrible, it can still be without plotholes.

Example:

Two men are standing in a shop.

Man 1: "Diz is sum kewl stuff!"

Man 2: "I'm going to kill you know for using such bad grammar."

Man 2 bring up gun and shoots man 1.

--The End--

That was sure as hell not well-written, but there was no plotholes.