Sonic storylines

[Diogenes]

Okay but how would he be able to see himself even though going back in time to get captured has not happened yet? Sounds like more poor writing and a plothole.

No, this is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of time travel. It hasn't happened to the Shadow you play as yet, but it has happened from the perspective of someone from the future. Shadow's story generally assumes that events are set in stone, they can't be changed (through time travel or otherwise), so Shadow will definitely go back to the present and will definitely be captured, which leads to what Mephiles shows him.

[DC111]

Something I forgot to mention: when I talked about Sonic's attitude, I was referring to how he accepted that the flame had to be blown out. I wasn't referring to 'attitude' in general. On THOSE grounds, I do agree that he was somewhat dull, and didn't have the cockiness Sonic should have. However, I don't think this makes him a lifeless shell; he had some good moments in Sonic 06, even if they weren't constantly full of 'attitude.'

[pppp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mN8hpajWOk

Looks purple to me. Does anyone else agree?

[Eternal EX]

Silver + Purple *Grabs shield to survive EA's anger*

Edited May 14, 2011 by Eternal Awesomeness

[Scar]

No, this is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of time travel. It hasn't happened to the Shadow you play as yet, but it has happened from the perspective of someone from the future. Shadow's story generally assumes that events are set in stone, they can't be changed (through time travel or otherwise), so Shadow will definitely go back to the present and will definitely be captured, which leads to what Mephiles shows him.

Well it works for the closed loop that is 06.

Since Solaris was destroyed, Iblis wasn't born, and Shadow thus would not become the scapegoat.

Its a nice idea though.

I personally think that Shadow's story in 06 would have worked better (with some extra improvements) instead of Shadows own game, which just had the poorest excuse of a plot ever conceived.

Yes Mephiles is unecessary, but it would be quite an ironic joke within the series, to see Shadow; the clone of Sonic, to receive is own clone, who is far more morally questionable.

Naturally the whole, "I must join with iblis" angle would need to be cut and Mephiles, have his character design and motivations changed.

EDIT: What the fuck? A double post....in a single post?

Edited May 14, 2011 by Scar

[Diogenes]

I'll question this til the world ends

Why? It's actually very simple as far as time travel goes. I'm not sure what you're stuck on.

but lets agree that basically this game never existed and avoid the conversation that is doomed to happen.

No I'd rather continue discussing this, regardless of '06 happening or not.

[Kamicciolo]

I disagree. Big being a fisherman isn't backstory-related because it's something he chooses to do in the present, and that's as far as it goes. But anything dealing with Knuckles regarding echidnas or guarding the emerald is tied to his backstory, as well as to his present. And it's especially blatant with Shadow since his game ended with him supposedly moving on, yet he's still dealing with old baggage.

[Sega DogTagz]

Shadow seemed to be past the issues he set behind him in his own game. Mephilies was more than happy to put him in a bind however, and brought up many of the same problems Shadow had previously laid to rest in order to drag his foe through the mud. I thought the whole thing was a pretty good set up to show Shadow being in control of his old destiny - by formally rejecting Mephilies.

The story of 06 wasn't perfect (and I don't think its as plot-hole ridden as some would have you beleive) but it did do a few things right. Its presentation was often of the wrong pitch, but Shadow's story in general was just what he needed to be a part of at that point.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Sega DogTagz

[Mangoaxe5]

and Silver's Story is a shameless ripoff of Future Trunks from DBZ.

The Sega Sonic canon has always felt like a Dragon Ball ripoff in certain ways.(Another reason why I like Satam, and Archie Sonic more then the Sega Sonic canon.)

[ilcane87]

Shadow seemed to be past the issues he set behind him in his own game. Mephilies was more than happy to put him in a bind however, and brought up many of the same problems Shadow had previously laid to rest in order to drag his foe through the mud. I thought the whole thing was a pretty good set up to show Shadow being in control of his old destiny - by formally rejecting Mephilies.

The story of 06 wasn't perfect (and I don't think its as plot-hole ridden as some would have you beleive) but it did do a few things right. Its presentation was often of the wrong pitch, but Shadow's story in general was just what he needed to be a part of at that point.

That's exactly how I feel like.

Notice the parallel between Black Doom's temptation and Mephiles's temptation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeioYk89btw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iQQoxWFcrM&feature=related

Both villains showed him an event happened in a different time, and used similar arguments to manipulate Shadow, but the second time he shows much greater maturity and resolve, seeing through Mephile's trick.

Another thing I really liked about Shadow's part of the story was how much interaction and development there was between members of Team Dark, reaching its peak in

that showed yet more change in Shadow's personality, who went from being an absolute loner to making and trusting close friends.

And the final part of the side-story was just perfect, as Shadow's mind is made up, he has trust in his allies and faces Mephiles in character-defining

The storyline of Sonic06 might've contained a good numbers of plot holes and out-of-character moments, but Shadow's part was spot on and really well thought out, truly one of the pinnacles of the series in my eyes.

Here's hoping we'll see more of these in-depth moments in future Sonic games, once they're done with this obsession of removing plots and characters, as if they were the cause of the bad quality of games...

[pppp]

Here's hoping we'll see more of these in-depth moments in future Sonic games, once they're done with this obsession of removing plots and characters, as if they were the cause of the bad quality of games...

About plots,i don't mind them as long as they keep the comic relief moments funny and the story doesn't get too dark(i mean c'mon,if i wanted that i would watch a movie)

Now about the characters i actually agree.It was the crappy gameplay that made the games bad,not the characters.The problem are the various whining fans who are all like: "I remember when it was just Sonic and Robotnik,those were the days".

[DC111]

Here's hoping we'll see more of these in-depth moments in future Sonic games, once they're done with this obsession of removing plots and characters, as if they were the cause of the bad quality of games...

[Scar]

This. SO this. I don't know what they think they're accomplishing by dumbing down the plots. One could argue "I'd go watch a movie if I wanted an in-depth plot," but if you DON'T want an in-depth plot, no one is forcing you to watch the cutscenes.

I'm not saying plots shouldn't have their funny, light-hearted moments. I'm just saying they should be balanced with a story that actually compels you to play the game.

[Diogenes]

Being more complicated than Colors does not mean that it will automatically be bad. I prefer Colors' story to '06's too, but I also believe that the stories can be better and more complex than Colors' at the same time.

[Scar]

Being more complicated than Colors does not mean that it will automatically be bad. I prefer Colors' story to '06's too, but I also believe that the stories can be better and more complex than Colors' at the same time.

[sonfan1984]

Here's hoping we'll see more of these in-depth moments in future Sonic games, once they're done with this obsession of removing plots and characters, as if they were the cause of the bad quality of games...

[Remynaka]

Tell that to all the people who wants Sonic only or say that Sonic games shouldn't have any kind of plot.

[DC111]

Bollocks.

An removal of story would be Mario.

As lighthearted as Colours was, it had a much more of a plot than any Main series Mario game.

And as Lighthearted as Colours was, it still contained less plotholes than SA2, Shadow and 06. Complex story =/= Good story. Complex story =/= deep story (heck SA2 wasn't particularly deep to begin with, it was wide by shallow tbh).

I'd rather have a simple, well-written plot, like Colours; which made sense (in the context of Sonic), than a convoluted mess like 06.

I wasn't comparing Sonic to Mario. Mario has no bearing on this. I was comparing Sonic to Sonic. The series has taken such a drastic change in direction in terms of plot that it WARRANTS a past-present comparison, if nothing else.

I'd take the plotholes over constant obnoxious humor that rubs itself in your face at the expense of a story. Plus, if these new writers are as great as everyone seems to think, they wouldn't leave plotholes in a more in-depth plot either. So that's no excuse for there to be plot-less stories from now on.

Maybe the reason Sonic Adventure 2, 2006, etc. had plotholes is because at the time, Sonic Team wasn't afraid to take RISKS to try and do something cool... much like their main character. Now they're playing it safe. And before someone says something like, "Hurr durr the reason they had plotholes is because Sonic Team wasn't paying enough attention" - I KNOW. The plotholes are unjustifiable. But plotholes don't automatically destroy the epicness, character development, sense of adventure, or other elements that made those stories so satisfying.

And since Colors was brought into this directly, I'll just provide my full opinion on that too.

Sonic Colors' plot was a joke.

Here's what I want: I want the well-written, lighthearted, plothole-less talents of the new writers... combined with the depth, good characterization and overall epicness of the Sonic Adventure series, Sonic Unleashed, Storybook series, and - to an extent - Sonic 2006. I want the Generations team to learn from the widely-accepted plot successes (SA1, SA2, Unleashed, Colors), and take the best of ALL worlds to make it one of the most satisfying Sonic stories ever. Sonic's 20th Anniversary deserves that much.

When Generations is released, I want to be able to quote this very post and say, "Guys, they did it."

Edited May 18, 2011 by DC111

[Remynaka]

As a story man myself, I can't believe I'm about to say this....... I just want a VERY good game that EVERYONE can enjoy and not hate 2 to 3 years down the line. That's it really. They pull that off I'm golden.

[pppp]

I wasn't comparing Sonic to Mario. Mario has no bearing on this. I was comparing Sonic to Sonic. The series has taken such a drastic change in direction in terms of plot that it WARRANTS a past-present comparison, if nothing else.

I'd take the plotholes over constant obnoxious humor that rubs itself in your face at the expense of a story. Plus, if these new writers are as great as everyone seems to think, they wouldn't leave plotholes in a more in-depth plot either. So that's no excuse for there to be plot-less stories from now on.

Maybe the reason Sonic Adventure 2, 2006, etc. had plotholes is because at the time, Sonic Team wasn't afraid to take RISKS to try and do something cool... much like their main character. Now they're playing it safe. And before someone says something like, "Hurr durr the reason they had plotholes is because Sonic Team wasn't paying enough attention" - I KNOW. The plotholes are unjustifiable. But plotholes don't automatically destroy the epicness, character development, sense of adventure, or other elements that made those stories so satisfying.

And since Colors was brought into this directly, I'll just provide my full opinion on that too.

Sonic Colors' plot was a joke.

Here's what I want: I want the well-written, lighthearted, plothole-less talents of the new writers... combined with the depth, good characterization and overall epicness of the Sonic Adventure series, Sonic Unleashed, Storybook series, and - to an extent - Sonic 2006. I want the Generations team to learn from the widely-accepted plot successes (SA1, SA2, Unleashed, Colors), and take the best of ALL worlds to make it one of the most satisfying Sonic stories ever. Sonic's 20th Anniversary deserves that much.

When Generations is released, I want to be able to quote this very post and say, "Guys, they did it."

You should watch movies if you want stories.The classic Genesis games(Which are still undeniably Sonic's best games) didn't need deep plots to be perfect,why do the new games need deep plots? I thought what made videogames great was great gameplay,but i guess i've been doing things wrong all these years

Movies = Storytelling

Games = Gameplay

See the difference?

Edited May 18, 2011 by pppp

[Remynaka]

You should watch movies if you want stories.The classic Genesis games(Which are still undeniably Sonic's best games) didn't need deep plots to be perfect,why do the new games need deep plots? I thought what made videogames great was great gameplay,but i guess i've been doing things wrong all these years

Movies = Storytelling

Games = Gameplay

See the difference?

Honestly because game companies are trying to bring the magic closer to movies for some reason. Blame new tech, like 3D gaming, game systems that are with each gen getting more movie like stuff. And if you really want something to bite into, blame the game companies noobing EVERYTHING up. Before you throw that chair at me.... hear this. Gameplay was harder in the old days cause that's all companies had to worry about. Nobody cared WHY x character needed to jump that rock to not get BLAM BLAM BLAMED.... people just went with it.

The moment game systems got better tech what did companies do? Started copying things from movies, not bad, but putting more time into making your game feel like a movie you start taking away from things they didn't take from before. Also gamers back then were few and far between, now everyone is apparently a gamer. It's a GOOD thing now. I remember kids got beat the hell up for being a gamer. I was one of them. Now it's KOOL cause they look like movies and EVERYONE can beat them. The moment companies started making games for people who DON'T play games, that's the moment companies needed more than GREAT gameplay to catch the noobs so to speak. So deep plots, amazing or so graphics and so on.

Sorry for the text wall, and no I'm not trying to be an ass, but your question is one I asked a few years back. It's not just you.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You should watch movies if you want stories.

I am so sick of hearing this bullshit.

He wants it in the games. Telling him what he should watch doesn't mean crap other than serve as a sneaky way to say "STFU and GTFO" when they want stories to add value to what they love, which your "you should watch movies if you want stories" comment is only serving to deny than to add to anything that could equally help the series as any other part in a game.

The classic Genesis games(Which are still undeniably Sonic's best games) didn't need deep plots to be perfect,why do the new games need deep plots?

To add even greater value to the characters than the Classics did. It's not a case of the new games needing anything, it's a case of people wanting more fun out of the package, and stories help add to that.

Part of why the Classic games didn't need have deep plots was because of two reasons:

1)back then technology was limited for them to do that to the extent they do now

2)we never gave a fuck about stories back then in the first place unless it was an RPG (which *surprise surprise* had stories and were still games), meaning we never gave a fuck about the Classic games stories until almost a decade later when it starts becoming an issue of debate

Nowadays, stories are part of the package with most games out there. Halo, Metroid, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, InFamous, Jak and Daxter, Devil May Cry, or my favorite example, The Legend of Zelda being a old well known franchise that it is, have stories.

I thought what made videogames great was great gameplay,but i guess i've been doing things wrong all these years

Dude, how about paying attention to the topic? This isn't about gameplay, so there's no point to bringing it up in the first place.

Movies = Storytelling

Games = Gameplay

See the difference?

I can see you don't understand why people want both in the same package.

In other words they want:

Games = gameplay + storytelling.

Can you see the relation here? In other words:

Gameplay = entertainment

Storytelling = entertainment

Therefore, when people want both they're saying:

Games = gameplay + storytelling = entertainment²

Edited May 18, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[pppp]

Honestly because game companies are trying to bring the magic closer to movies for some reason. Blame new tech, like 3D gaming, game systems that are with each gen getting more movie like stuff. And if you really want something to bite into, blame the game companies noobing EVERYTHING up. Before you throw that chair at me.... hear this. Gameplay was harder in the old days cause that's all companies had to worry about. Nobody cared WHY x character needed to jump that rock to not get BLAM BLAM BLAMED.... people just went with it.

The moment game systems got better tech what did companies do? Started copying things from movies, not bad, but putting more time into making your game feel like a movie you start taking away from things they didn't take from before. Also gamers back then were few and far between, now everyone is apparently a gamer. It's a GOOD thing now. I remember kids got beat the hell up for being a gamer. I was one of them. Now it's KOOL cause they look like movies and EVERYONE can beat them. The moment companies started making games for people who DON'T play games, that's the moment companies needed more than GREAT gameplay to catch the noobs so to speak. So deep plots, amazing or so graphics and so on.

Sorry for the text wall, and no I'm not trying to be an ass, but your question is one I asked a few years back. It's not just you.

[Remynaka]

Wait a minute i thought you wanted deep stories in Sonic games?

Edited May 18, 2011 by lamontraccoon

[pppp]

I am so sick of hearing this bullshit.

He wants it in the games. Telling him what he should watch doesn't mean crap other than serve as a sneaky way to say "STFU and GTFO" when they want stories to add value to what they love.

To add even greater value to the characters than the Classics did. It's not a case of the new games needing anything, it's a case of people wanting more fun out of the package, and stories help add to that.

Part of why the Classic games didn't need have deep plots was because of two reasons:

1)back then technology was limited for them to do that to the extent they do now

2)we never gave a fuck about stories back then in the first place unless it was an RPG (which *surprise surprise* had stories and were still games), meaning we never gave a fuck about the Classic games stories until almost a decade later when it starts becoming an issue of debate

Nowadays, stories are part of the package with most games out there. Halo, Metroid, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, InFamous, Jak and Daxter, Devil May Cry, or my favorite example, The Legend of Zelda being a old well known franchise that it is, have stories.

Dude, how about paying attention to the topic? This isn't about gameplay, so there's no point to bringing it up in the first place.

I can see you don't understand why people want both in the same package.

In other words they want:

Games = gameplay + storytelling.

Can you see the relation here? In other words:

Gameplay = entertainment

Storytelling = entertainment

Therefore, when people want both they're saying:

Games with gameplay + storytelling = entertainment²