Who is your least favorite character and why?

[psikeout]

Chris could be a hedgehog, echidna, fox, wolf, porcupine, pink kitty cat (lol) or whatever else. Doesn't mean he'd be any less shitty unless they actually changed how he is as a character.

This is partially true, but I also think at least part of Chris' badness is intrinsically linked to his humanity. He's one of those characters who's really only human because he's supposed to be the self-insertion portal for the 6-12 year olds watching the show—The character who they can pretend they are in their heads as they watch, that makes it believable to them that Sonic could be their buddy in just the same way, blah blah blah. It's executed to painfully patronizing effect. I would have been personally insulted if I was in that show's target demographic, even as a kid.

[Nepenthe]

At least my dislike of Cream has some merit.

Wow, how condescending. My dislike of these two characters has merit too. Whether or not you agree with my choices or reasoning is another story.

he is classic,

What does the "omg classic!" excuse have to do with anything? I don't give a rat's buttocks when Metal's birthday is.

and he is basicaly the evil aligned Sonic, ie; Robotnik's love of metal and robots personified into his worst enemy.

This makes him a stereotype.

It also says alot about the big man himself; on one side he's not above acknowledging that to beat Sonic he may have to play like him, on the other side it might be a grim look into what he would do to Sonic if he were ever to beat him.

That would be all well and good if Metal was actually capable of hurting Sonic. As I mentioned before, I don't think he's canonically laid a scratch on Sonic yet, much less significantly injure him. Despite the "Grr I'm a mindless, evil machine! ph33r me!" shtick, the failure to even do what even Amy has done has led to my overwhelming apathy; I'm going to come out of any encounter with him without any evidence that we battled, so who cares? It's like being afraid of Wile E. Coyote.

That latter theory seems like a strong disconnect to anything we've seen in the series yet. Metal is almost always a means to an end for Eggman. If anything, Eggman would rather have Sonic die than be roboticized.

And Nack, Nack is THE coolest, and his fan love is due to his awesome unique design and personality, who else in the Sonic series is an awesome, selfish, weasely, manipulative mercenery - he needs to come back!

Without a personality that goes beyond the Boba Fett routine or even in-game actions to show for it, I don't necessarily care that way for Nack either nor see any objective need for him to come back beyond pleasing a few of his hardcores, especially since some of those same hardcores will no sooner complain about the current roster being too big.

Perhaps you should consider why they have such a large follwing. In the words of Yatzee: "Popular things are popular for a reason, because they're good....or because Will Smith is in it"

Popularity is not always a product of good quality.

You call them jokers because of what they have failed to achieve in the games?? Well have you taken a look at Eggman lately? Because if anything HE is the biggest joker of all.

Eggman is a villain who is almost always going to lose. But unlike his prized creation, he has at least successfully won a few scraps against Sonic. He's been proven capable of widespread destruction and slavery, and has even managed his ultimate goal of creating Eggmanland. Eggman's personality and character also runs far deeper than either Metal's or Nack's combined, and it has ever since SA2. Yes, Eggman gets pushed aside by monsters, and he never ultimately wins (unless you count Chronicles, I guess), but at least he's done something to warrant his status as a threat and has a more rounded personality to boot.

But this view of having to achieve something to be liked is stupid.

So you're in favor of characters that don't do anything, so long as they look cool? That hardly makes for interesting characters, or hell, even good storytelling in general.

Have we ever seen Rouge achieve her goals of stealing the worlds precious jewels? Have we seen Omega "destroy all Eggmans robots"? What has Big achieved? Yet they all still have their fans not because of what they have acheived in the games, but because of what good characters they are.

Earning an achievement and achieving your ultimate goals are two entirely different things, and this distinction you failed to draw means you missed the point by miles. I prefer my characters to perform successful actions that warrant their reputations and abilities; It gives me a reason to believe in them.

Rouge has managed to steal the Chaos Emeralds before, thus I give validity to her ability as a treasure hunter. Omega has destroyed plenty of Eggman's robots, thus I give validity to his mission of revenge. Big's goal is to keep his life in check which means having Froggy by his side. When things get out of whack, he has gone on long journeys to successfully retrieve his friend, which means he has actually achieved something. Thus, I give validity to his bravery and kindness.

What Metal has going for him, apparently, is that he's threatening. This is demonstrated by his goal which is to kill Sonic. Of course in a series like this, this is permanently unachievable, but regardless I expect him to at least hurt Sonic to level the playing field and make their encounters look believable and worthwhile. But the goddamned toaster can't even touch Sonic. So I don't care that he's classic or looks cool or is some cheap personification of something. At first glance, he has not proven himself truly threatening, thus I don't treat his game persona like a badass like everyone else does. If Sonic Team took a note from the OAV, I would reconsider. But otherwise, Metal has not actually earned his supposed reputation as a badass threat.

Same with Nack. I suppose his goal is to rack up dough. But we've not even spent enough time with him to see him do anything towards that goal beyond oppose Sonic; We haven't even gotten a glimpse as to what he already has. Of course, that's mostly a problem with the storytelling of the classic games, so I don't hold it against him, but I don't hold it in his or any other scrapped character's favor either. So Nack is a greedy mercenary. Whoop-de-doo.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Aquaslash]

Oh ahahaha! Everyone will say Chris if we're talking about all the different universes. But you know, it's best to forget about Chris, Sonia, Sally and the rest of that crap.

WHAT DID YOU SAY NIGGAAAAAAAA?

All jokes aside (Cause BB's actually one of my homeboys XD) I've come to the conclusion that I I somewhat like all of the characters, but there are two that I particularly like hating, this that makes sense.

Those would be Tails and Amy. Tails, for generally being an annoying twat, and the source of all my problems in Sonic 2 (the fact that I can turn him off doesn't make him any less of a nuisance), and Amy was only useful for one game. That being Sonic Adventure, after that, her psycho fangirliness drove her right to the top of the list of "characters I'd have Metal Knuckles disembowel"

Cream and Cosmo used to be on this list, but both have fallen so far off the radar that they're no longer relevant. Also, I suppose the single redeeming thing about tails would be his Super State in the comics. Turbo Tails is damned awesome. Too bad the games won't follow suit.

Also, in defense of Metal Sonic, one can also say that Shadow hasn't canonically laid a hand on Sonic either. Sonic X does not count, and every single fight that they've been in can easily be interpreted as Sonic beating the daylights out of him. It's the exact same case with Metal Sonic. You have three main battle settings:

Stardust Speedway battle

Death Egg's Eye battle

Any battle in either Sonic Rivals.

Since these are not cutscenes, but actually gameplay moments, they can be interpreted however you like. Sonic can either breeze through them without a scratch, or he can have barely made it through all of those with his life. Heroes wasn't counted because that was a tag team ass whippin by THREE Super States. No way out of that one. At least it took that many!

The scenes themselves point to some kind of middle ground. Particularly in both Rivals games. Sonic seems to shit bricks whenever Metal Sonic is even mentioned. He even says something to the extent of "Whenever Metal Sonic's involved, it means trouble. Gotta keep my guard up"

tl;dr: Your "never laid a hit" reasoning is not only invalid, but goes both ways.

Also Metal Knuckles is better than both of them anyway XD

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

WHAT DID YOU SAY NIGGAAAAAAAA?

I'm sorry, normally I would question that, but that just cracked me up!

Also, in defense of Metal Sonic, one can also say that Shadow hasn't canonically laid a hand on Sonic either.

He did roundhouse Silver, who Psywaved Sonic. So...

Shadow > Silver > Sonic?

But wait, what about their first fight in SA2 before Green Jungle/White Forest? It ended in a draw, but you know at the very least they went at it and that they landed some blows on each other before escaping the island.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

He did roundhouse Silver, who Psywaved Sonic. So...

Shadow > Silver > Sonic?

Something like that, but then Sonic > Shadow

So it goes full circle.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Something like that, but then Sonic > Shadow

So it goes full circle.

Well I wouldn't exactly say that, but then again that should be expected. Sonic is the main hero, so he should be able to beat almost anybody who challenges him. It was weaker than Knuckles but still won, same with Shadow...Silver only had that advantage because of his ability to keep anything at a distance away from him.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[agoodusername]

Something like that, but then Sonic > Shadow

So it goes full circle.

Obviously SEGA listened to too much Dream Theater before they made the script.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Edge

[Saint Nathan]

Shadow > Silver > Sonic?

Not quite. Silver only caught Sonic off guard, which Shadow also did. One hit does not a better fighter make. Sonic could beat Silver down, and did rather easily, his good nature got the better of him when he made sure Silver was okay though.

And then Shadow and Silver's fight never had a winner, so who knows. But Sonic beats both of them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not quite. Silver only caught Sonic off guard, which Shadow also did.

Eh, it isn't as bad as Mephiles, so meh.

You could argue that Sonic was distracted, and that you're suppose to pay attention to your opponent. The number of times Elise got captured, he made sure he got her back each time despite how much of a running gag it was in that game.

Shadow actually took full advantage of his abilities in his fight with Silver. Silver himself wasn't actually off-guard on anything, just more reckless and unprepared...unless that wasn't the fight you were talking about.

One hit does not a better fighter make.

It kind of does when that hit is the winning blow the way I look at it. If you hit a guy once and he still comes back, it doesn't make a guy the better one, but if he's KO'ed (or doesn't try to fight back) it just shows...

You know what, I'm looking too far into it.

Sonic could beat Silver down, and did rather easily, his good nature got the better of him when he made sure Silver was okay though.

Wait...where does Sonic beat Silver? I only remember them having one fight, not two...unless I forgot something.

[agoodusername]

It kind of does when that hit is the winning blow the way I look at it. If you hit a guy once and he still comes back, it doesn't make a guy the better one, but if he's KO'ed (or doesn't try to fight back) it just shows...

Silver did try to fight back though. I also thought that Silver took Shadow telling him about 'the truth of what happened 10 years ago' a little too easily. Didn't even question Shadow... just jumped in with him...

Wait...where does Sonic beat Silver? I only remember them having one fight, not two...unless I forgot something.

In Sonic 06 they only fought once. In both Sonic Rivals games you fought Silver as Sonic and Tails(Tails is R2 only) at least once.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

^ Pretty much Dio's sentiment. It'd be hard to put Sonic in those legendary settings in a modern Sonic world. Despite the fantasy of Sonic's classic setting, you'd be asking your audience to believe that Medieval England and Arabia exist aside robot armies and space stations. Wouldn't want to see more time travel to fix that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Silver did try to fight back though.

That Chaos Control-Kick combo from Shadow would've probably happened again if they didn't time travel together.

Don't mind me here, I'm just being silly.

In Sonic 06 they only fought once. In both Sonic Rivals games you fought Silver as Sonic and Tails(Tails is R2 only) at least once.

I know about the Rivals games, but that doesn't fit in with Sonic beating Silver as easily, especially when the fights in Rivals could go both ways.

[Nepenthe]

@ Aquaslash: The ability to interpret gameplay however one wishes because it's ultimately random is why I try my absolute hardest not to use it as an example for anything regarding canon. Cutscenes are a different story, and I will give you Sonic's attitude in the Rivals games towards Metal... but then again, he says this and acts that way about Jet as well. So I guess you now believe that Jet is one of Sonic's greatest threats too?

Sonic is naturally careful in many of his battles. It's a fact of being as successful as he is, and it has no regards as to whether or not an audience member will perceive his opponent in the same manner. A universe's internal logic or viewpoint doesn't always have to be in line with our own, hence why we can predict outcomes that characters cannot.

Again, Metal's little stint in Heroes is a result of him having to absorb the powers of many different characters instead of actually relying on the abilities Eggman gave him. I see the super states as thus leveling the playing field, like a seasoned game player breaking out a turbo controller after his inexperienced younger sibling took one out too in an immature fit of rage over his numerous, humiliating losses. <3

Regardless, none of what Heroes shows proves that Metal has hurt Sonic either. I don't know why you mentioned that fight.

Now, Shadow's reputation isn't as arguable considering his performance as dictacted by cutscenes in SA2 and ShTH is better than Metal's. The former game showed Sonic completely in awe as well as both completely out of breath, and the latter showed Sonic on the ground twice. While those few endings aren't canon, the very fact that they are still possible outcomes gives Shadow a more threatening demeanor. It shows that he can hurt Sonic if given the chance, thus I as an audience member will take fights with him more seriously than Metal who, unfortunately, has had no such luxury because Sonic Team hasn't shown it yet.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Saint Nathan]

Wait...where does Sonic beat Silver? I only remember them having one fight, not two...unless I forgot something.

Their first battle. Sonic gets Silver on the ground no matter who you play as. Silver has to resort to cheap tricks to even get a hold of Sonic.

And then their second meeting he just ambushes Sonic. So Sonic is able to beat him down sufficiently.

[Nepenthe]

And then their second meeting he just ambushes Sonic. So Sonic is able to beat him down sufficiently.

I don't think an ambush is really an ambush when you stand around pointing and announcing the future death of your opponent. Sonic had plenty of time to react, which he did once Silver launched his first shot. But after that was when Sonic was caught in his psychic hold. I think the cutscene actually shows Silver's potential to hurt Sonic plenty well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Their first battle. Sonic gets Silver on the ground no matter who you play as. Silver has to resort to cheap tricks to even get a hold of Sonic.

That wasn't a cheap trick, that was Silver taking advantage of Sonic being distracted by the princess's capture. He actually knocked Sonic to the ground twice with his telekinesis (actually the first time was at a wall, but still).

Silver clearly won their first fight.

Right around 3:10.

And then their second meeting he just ambushes Sonic. So Sonic is able to beat him down sufficiently.

Actually, Sonic practically lost the second fight as well. Silver let off a psyblast in Sonic direction while he was carrying the princess, which Sonic quickly dodged. He does it a second time, and Sonic dodges it again, and before Sonic get a chance to move after the dodge, Silver traps him in an electric field.

Sonic practically didn't stand any chance at that point until Shadow intervened in the whole fight.

It's all right here at around 4:32:

Silver is definitely a foe Sonic should be more than careful of.

(Holy crap, I can't believe how annoying the script was in that game!)

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

Yeah, Silver very much can beat Sonic for the very fact that Sonic can't get close to him without getting caught in a psy field.

Shadow on the other hand cheated his ass off and used Chaos Control before Silver even had the chance.

Meanwhile, Sonic is shown gaining the upper hand in almost every fight that Sonic's been in.

Also I don't recall Sonic ever giving Jet anywhere near the level of caution he gives Metal Sonic. No reason he should either. All Jet wants to do is beat him in a race. Metal Sonic wants to kill him.

In any case, there's enough evidence to assume that if a battle between Sonic and Metal Sonic were depicted by in game cutscenes, it would very much be one of the hardest battles Sonic's ever fought. One only needs to turn to the other canons to see that, so I still think your point is kinda moot, and you're just looking for reasons to hate on Metal XD (then again, that's the point of this topic, so hate away)

Edited May 26, 2010 by Aquaslash

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow on the other hand cheated his ass off and used Chaos Control before Silver even had the chance.

Now, now, there aren't any rules in a fight...it can't be called cheating when Shadow can use Chaos Control over Silver's Telekinesis if Silver can use Telekinesis against Sonic's Speed. That's just being unfair on the character.

Shadow only slowed Silver, while Silver completely immobilized Sonic.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

Now, now, there aren't any rules in a fight...it can't be called cheating when Shadow can use Chaos Control over Silver's Telekinesis if Silver can use Telekinesis against Sonic's Speed. That's just being unfair on the character.

Shadow only slowed Silver, while Silver completely immobilized Sonic.

But he used an item! Would have been different if he didn't have a Chaos Emerald XD

I see your point though =P

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But he used an item! Would have been different if he didn't have a Chaos Emerald XD

Hey, a weapon's a weapon.

It takes skill to use a Chaos Emerald as a weapon.

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, Silver very much can beat Sonic for the very fact that Sonic can't get close to him without getting caught in a psy field.

Shadow on the other hand cheated his ass off and used Chaos Control before Silver even had the chance.

Meanwhile, Sonic is shown gaining the upper hand in almost every fight that Sonic's been in.

Also I don't recall Sonic ever giving Jet anywhere near the level of caution he gives Metal Sonic. No reason he should either. All Jet wants to do is beat him in a race. Metal Sonic wants to kill him.

In any case, there's enough evidence to assume that if a battle between Sonic and Metal Sonic were depicted by in game cutscenes, it would very much be one of the hardest battles Sonic's ever fought. One only needs to turn to the other canons to see that, so I still think your point is kinda moot, and you're just looking for reasons to hate on Metal XD (then again, that's the point of this topic, so hate away)

You don't recall this attitude with Jet? In Riders 1, Sonic continually refers to him as strong competition, particularly in the cutscene where he meets the bird in the forest. He says something akin to, "I don't think he's all talk. I need to keep on my toes if I'm to win." And this was said after Knuckles of all characters brushed Jet off.

Also, you're calling Shadow a cheater for using Chaos Control, yet will not admit the same for Metal who, again, has to directly copy the moves of other characters to even pose as a threat in Heroes and other games? Inconsistent much? xD

And frankly, there's also the same amount of evidence to suggest otherwise. Hell, Knuckles has knocked Sonic out of a super state. And after fighting Dark Gaia, Super Sonic fainted. And with Shadow and Silver, Sonic has tied with them or even been close to losing or, depending on how you look at it, actually lost. We've simply never seen evidence that this level of physical effort has actually been needed on Sonic's part in battle with Metal in a cutscene. Ever; After a fight, the dude's always brushing his shoulders off. Thus, it stands to logically conclude that Metal hasn't posed as much of a direct threat as he's been said to pose, just like most of Eggman's other numerous creations. Call me looking for reasons, but considering we're both looking at the same amount of evidence, I could just as easily consider you looking for any way to defend this character from any criticism. x3

Edited May 26, 2010 by Nepenthe

[agoodusername]

I just wanted to take a moment to point out one of my favorite lines in that entire game. "HIS POWER... CAN CHANGE TIME... AND EVEN MANIPULATE THE FABRIC OF TIME ITSELF!"

[Aquaslash]

We've simply never seen evidence that this level of physical effort has actually been needed on Sonic's part in battle with Metal in a cutscene. Ever; After a fight, the dude's always brushing his shoulders off. Thus, it stands to logically conclude that Metal hasn't posed as much of a direct threat as he's been said to pose, just like most of Eggman's other numerous creation

This really ends at the first sentence, because there's simply nothing in the games for you to make that conclusion yet. Meanwhile, we DO have two other canons where Sonic's seen just barely scraping by a fight with Metal Sonic, so while it's true one could envision that it's possible that Sonic may have gotten through those battles unscathed, it's extremely unlikely.

Quite frankly, if he didn't pose a serious threat, Rivals wouldn't have used the "shocked/spooked" image at the first mention of him.

Though it has to be said, that like all other characters, Sonic usually wises up by the second of third battle.

[Nepenthe]

Despite the fact that Metal Sonic has his reputation arbitrarily, the burden of proof is actually on your side of the argument because you are trying to prove a claim as true, thus I logically have the burden of assumption and the lack of evidence in the games that we're both working with actually falls in my favor.

Again, Sonic Team has done cutscenes displaying how similarly matched other characters are to Sonic since 1994, and none of them include Metal Sonic. Thus, I logically conclude that Metal Sonic is not that big of a threat as Knuckles, Shadow, or Silver. Really, if you just had one cutscene to show me that details the ongoing or aftermath of a battle between Sonic and Metal wherein the former is struggling or noticeably damaged, instead of pointing me to canons besides the one I originally defined as relevant to my argument (even though I've already given the OAV version props anyways), then I'd hop out of this argument.

Really, all this is for me is a matter of, "I'll believe it when I see it." So show me. xP

Edited May 26, 2010 by Nepenthe

[Aquaslash]

Despite the fact that Metal Sonic has his reputation arbitrarily, the burden of proof is actually on your side of the argument because you are trying to prove a claim as true, thus I logically have the burden of assumption and the lack of evidence in the games that we're both working with actually falls in my favor.

Again, Sonic Team has done cutscenes displaying how similarly matched other characters are to Sonic since 1994, and none of them include Metal Sonic. Thus, I logically conclude that Metal Sonic is not that big of a threat as Knuckles, Shadow, or Silver. Really, if you just had one cutscene to show me that details the ongoing or aftermath of a battle between Sonic and Metal wherein the former is struggling or noticeably damaged, instead of pointing me to canons besides the one I originally defined as relevant to my argument (even though I've already given the OAV version props anyways), then I'd hop out of this argument.

Really, all this is for me is a matter of, "I'll believe it when I see it." So show me. xP

1. I'm so very tempted to stop this debate and stab a baby right now because I fucking LOATHE that phrase.

2. Your conclusion isn't logical based on the sole fact that the two games where there was a serious battle between them weren't cutscene heavy in the slightest. (This would be CD and Fighters, and then again, it's just Fighters, because CD was a race). Aside from Fighters, Metal Sonic's last confrontations with Sonic were the Rivals games, and those simply didn't show any aftermath. Regardless, the series has set a precedent that Metal Sonic is essentially The Dragon.

He is THE biggest enemy threat next to Dr. Eggman himself, and this extends to about every character except Silver. In fact, your argument would be completely valid if you were talking about Silver and not Sonic, as Silver is probably the most overpowered hero character in the series. And if he's not #1, he ties with Shadow.

Anywho, quite frankly, if Sonic didn't perceive Metal Sonic as a big, or rather an even bigger threat than Knuckles/Shadow/Silver, he wouldn't have used this expression:

For two games at the very mention of his name. (and Rivals 2 had waaaaaaaaaaay more pics for character expressions too!)

Also for the record, Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver are present in both games, and he approached all three with his normal smiling demeanor, and even seems to jump at the chance of battling Knuckles and Shadow.

TL;DR: When Metal Sonic shows up, shit just got real

Edited May 27, 2010 by Aquaslash