Slipping away...

[BlueFlare]

But if they could make a game as good as SA and SA2 I'd be uber happies.

It's kind of funny that a lot of people seemed to like SA and SA2 but I never really found those games that awesome. Of course, it's been quite some time those were released and might not feel that special after playing and seeing Sonic Unleashed, which fixed almost everything that was bad in previous 3D Sonics. This is only my opinion. Pay attention to that I had my first opportunity to try SA2 for the first time this year so it didn't probably feel so fresh. I believe I'd have liked these more if I had tried them earlier.

Edited March 25, 2009 by PeTeRpAn

[BlueFlare]

Sorry, double post. Punch me.

Edited March 25, 2009 by PeTeRpAn

[SuperStingray]

It's kind of funny that a lot of people seemed to like SA and SA2 but I never really found those games that awesome. Of course, it's been quite some time those were released and might not feel that special after playing and seeing Sonic Unleashed, which fixed almost everything that was bad in previous 3D Sonics. This is only my opinion. Pay attention to that I had my first opportunity to try SA2 for the first time this year so it didn't probably feel so fresh. I believe I'd have liked these more if I had tried them earlier.

Good as those games were, I don't think they stood the test of time very well. At least SA1 anyway; I still love SA2.

[Sean]

SA1 is still enjoyable because the levels are still the most fun I've had in a 3D Sonic game, but I've grown permanently bored of SA2, due to all of the hours I spent on it trying to collect all A ranks.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Jake

[SuperStingray]

SA1 is still enjoyable because the levels are still the most fun I've had in a 3D Sonic game, but I've grown permanently bored of SA2, due to all of the hours I spent on it trying to collect all A ranks.

I felt the A ranks really gave it a lot of replay value to me.

[Crystal Kingfisher]

Oh come on, Unleashed wasn't that bad except for the werehog parts. I haven't played Black Knight yet, but one of my friends on Xbox Live who is a big fan of Sega and Sonic told me he got Black Knight and he told me it sucked, he said the storyline was complete bullshit and the gameplay gets old fast and will make your arm hurt, sometimes the controls won't even respond. So I'm not getting Black Knight, plus I don't like the Wii that much.

[SuperStingray]

Oh come on, Unleashed wasn't that bad except for the werehog parts. I haven't played Black Knight yet, but one of my friends on Xbox Live who is a big fan of Sega and Sonic told me he got Black Knight and he told me it sucked, he said the storyline was complete bullshit and the gameplay gets old fast and will make your arm hurt, sometimes the controls won't even respond. So I'm not getting Black Knight, plus I don't like the Wii that much.

Well, the gameplay itself is rather tedious at best, but I think it has one of the best stories a Sonic game has had in years. If you don't get it, I'd recommend you at least watch the cutscenes on YouTube or something.

[eXtaticus]

Oh come on, Unleashed wasn't that bad except for the werehog parts. I haven't played Black Knight yet, but one of my friends on Xbox Live who is a big fan of Sega and Sonic told me he got Black Knight and he told me it sucked, he said the storyline was complete bullshit and the gameplay gets old fast and will make your arm hurt, sometimes the controls won't even respond. So I'm not getting Black Knight, plus I don't like the Wii that much.

Sonic Unleashed was completely dire; I fail to see how anyone can think otherwise! Poor collision detection, camera, stale level design... you name the faliure, Unleashed is bound to have it. The game was just ungratifyingly dull and unforgivabely awful.

What I feel that Sega did by landing the responsibility of the game's creation with the Japanese development is this: "HEYHEYHEY! I have a great idea: how about we abandon the idea of trying extra-hard with an already experienced (and rapidly improving) American development team, and give the Japanese team Unleashed to make instead? I know we've been trying extra-hard to make our star series into total crap, but I believe that SoJ will be able to fuck Sonic up even better!!!!!!!"

That's what it felt like, and it didn't feel nice. And I hate Sega for doing that. I really do.

[Tornado]

You put too much faith into the competency of ST USA.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Tornado

[SuperStingray]

"HEYHEYHEY! I have a great idea: how about we abandon the idea of trying extra-hard with an already experienced (and rapidly improving) American development team

American Development Team: Sonic Adventure 2 --> Shadow the Hedgehog.

Improving?

[lounge]

American Development Team: Sonic Adventure 2 --> Shadow the Hedgehog.

Improving?

I guess they were more experienced with dreamcast software. On wiki, it says they got re-absorbed back into Japan.

[Phos]

Doesn't excuse the massive design flaws.

[ovarloard]

Doesn't excuse the massive design flaws.

Yes. It wasn't just the programming that was the problem... the problem also comes from things such as level layout that are separate from the actual programming. What I mean by that is that even if the program were perfect, the layout still wouldn't be good.

[SuperStingray]

Yes. It wasn't just the programming that was the problem... the problem also comes from things such as level layout that are separate from the actual programming. What I mean by that is that even if the program were perfect, the layout still wouldn't be good.

I'm still awestruck simply by the fact that they couldn't give Eggman more than one line for each of his midgame boss battles. I mean, was their budget THAT bad?

[lounge]

I'm still awestruck simply by the fact that they couldn't give Eggman more than one line for each of his midgame boss battles. I mean, was their budget THAT bad?

While I agree that some of the layout ideas in Shadow were pretty cramped and poorly thought out, a good bulk I found to be genuine, original, and pretty fun. The electronic levels stand out the most.

Still, I think the problem was lack of a good budget. It definetly shows in the texture and modeling quality, which was lackluster compared to their first game (sa2).

And I don't think the budget had anything to do with Eggman's lines in the game. There's A LOT of dialogue in game.

[eXtaticus]

To my personal experience, the only problems hindering ST USA are a lack of money, and a severe lack of time; Sonic '06 was created in a very short period with little cash backing it, which is probably why the standard of programming was very low (although the level design was admittadely excellent) - that particular title should have spent at least another year in development, if not more, and the budget needed to be given a few extra thousand dollars...

In Unleashed, Sega gave a huge amount of dosh and a large development period to an unexperienced Japanese team - a decision that doesn't really compute; if they could have given the same budjet and time alottment to ST USA, then it may have turned out to be the brilliant game that everyone fantasized when the first demo trailers were released...

... Because that's all the American team needs to make brilliant Sonic: a little patience and a wad of cash; just think about the general excellence that SA2 posessed when they had those two essential requirements, and imagine the graphics in superbly crisp HD!

[ovarloard]

Still. What makes you think ST USA could have done better?

[Phos]

I'm pretty sure that Sonic 06 was made in Japan. The team that did Sonic Adventure 2 through Shadow was busy on Journey of Dreams. They were reabsorbed into Sonic Team in Japan afterwords. Something that's telling of how out of touch with what made their old games fun they had become is Journey of Dreams. The origenal was an excellent game, an instant classic. So, what does Iizuka do? Change fundamental elements. Journey of Dreams is completely missing the score attack dynamic, has a crap ton of cheesy dialog that ruins any emotional impact it might have had, NiGHTS has been slowed down (not in the sense that the levels require it, NiGHTS simply moves slower), and gimped the hell out of the Drill Dash (probably to try and make the persona masks not useless). They also took away NiGHTS's rubbery nature, and relegated his underwater transformation to one of the masks. and made it a dolphin, rather than NiGHTS just growing fins, though this could have been from lack of time/talent on the parts of the animators.

The point is, Iizuka is a decent (though not exemplary) level designer, but an abysmal game designer, and he was in charge of Sonic Team USA.

Shun Nakamura (the director of Sonic 06) was one of the level designers who worked on Sonic Adventure 1, which probably explains why both games have some actual variety to their levels, though Adventure more so than 06. Also, way to many pitfalls, more so in 06.

[lounge]

Still. What makes you think ST USA could have done better?

They were more experienced I guess you can say. Though they were pretty understaffed. On wiki, it says like 25 people worked there. It's just that damn renderware engine they used for sonic heroes, and then a low budget and muti console problem with shadow the hedgehog. NiGHTS journey of dreams was better in quality than their last two (probably due to no muti console worries).

The point is, Iizuka is a decent (though not exemplary) level designer, but an abysmal game designer

I wouldn't call him an abysmal game designer. Sure his treasure hunting, shooting concepts in sa2, and the child levels in NiGHTS weren't great, but he was a major help in getting 3d sonic started.

As for level design, I really have no complaints. I enjoyed the levels. Those thrill ride moments in SA2-ShTh were great.

[batson]

In weird way, i think the suckyness of newer Sonic games actually serves to knit the fanbase closer together. Cause when it comes to the question of Sonic these days, its kinda like "the fans vs everyone else". Not that us fans dont know that the new games suck, oh quite the contrary. But unlike pretty much anyone outside of the fanbase (at least anyone over the age of 11), who just either treat Sonic as a big joke or even hate the series, we still care a lot about Sonic as a series, as a character, as a franchise. We still care about Sonic as a whole, even if we are well aware of the fact that many newer individual games (many, many, many...) suck balls.

[Eileanach]

Whilst I sort of agree with your thought path batson I need to disagree as I would say that a lot of fans of Sonic games do not know a shit Sonic game when it smacks them in the face and has "This Game is Shit" on the cover. A lot of people are too "die hard" Sonic fanatics and just defend it regardless. There are varying degrees of fans for Sonic the same as there are varying degrees of fans for everything else. Whilst the more stable fans can notice a crap game and say why and whilst we can still care about the Sonic franchise... a lot of people couldn't give two tosses and that is because Sonic is a money maker and as long as he continues to be a money maker companies will churn out crap games and the odd gem once in a while.

[Zanoh]

*Keeps playing his Dreamcast* Ah good times

But in all seriousness, I wouldn't say Sonic has gone too far down the pipe. Secret Rings was ok and The daytime levels in unleashed were awesome. Needs a little work but it was good. But I agree. Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 (for the dreamcast) are alot better than most of today's releases.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Zanoh

[Tornado]

I wouldn't call him an abysmal game designer. Sure his treasure hunting, shooting concepts in sa2, and the child levels in NiGHTS weren't great, but he was a major help in getting 3d sonic started.

Yuji Naka was still calling the shots when 3D Sonic started. It wasn't until Iizuka was handed the reigns for Adventure 2 that things started going horribly, horribly wrong.

Something that's telling of how out of touch with what made their old games fun they had become is Journey of Dreams. The origenal was an excellent game, an instant classic. So, what does Iizuka do? Change fundamental elements. Journey of Dreams is completely missing the score attack dynamic, has a crap ton of cheesy dialog that ruins any emotional impact it might have had, NiGHTS has been slowed down (not in the sense that the levels require it, NiGHTS simply moves slower), and gimped the hell out of the Drill Dash (probably to try and make the persona masks not useless). They also took away NiGHTS's rubbery nature, and relegated his underwater transformation to one of the masks. and made it a dolphin, rather than NiGHTS just growing fins, though this could have been from lack of time/talent on the parts of the animators.

You know why that's even funnier?

Because Sonic Team says "Fuck You," that's why. And that was barely two months after they released Journey of Dreams.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Tornado

[lounge]

Yuji Naka was still calling the shots when 3D Sonic started. It wasn't until Iizuka was handed the reigns for Adventure 2 that things started going horribly, horribly wrong.

As far as I can tell, he was only the producer for Sonic Adventure. And Iizuka was the director of the game too, so I don't get where you're getting this "YU2 calling the shots" statement.

[Tornado]

As far as I can tell, he was only the producer for Sonic Adventure. And Iizuka was the director of the game too, so I don't get where you're getting this "YU2 calling the shots" statement.

Because after Sonic Adventure, Yuji Naka became somewhat of a nonentity in the series despite his name being slapped to the producer title. He didn't go over with Iizuka to Sonic Team USA, and he wasn't seriously involved in the planning of Adventure 2 or the game's following for that very reason. He was, however, seriously involved with the creation of the first Sonic Adventure, and he also ran Sonic Team while that game was being developed.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Tornado