Eggman the Dad: What do you think of Sonic Frontiers' latest developments for Sonic's arch-nemesis?

[Dr. Mechano]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I was never a fan of the interpretation that Eggman and Metal had any familial relationship; I know it's a popular headcanon, especially with Sage being in the mix now, but it just never gelled with how I've seen these characters act before.

So I'm fine with Sage being Eggman's favorite child that he dotes on instead.

He does pat Metal on the back in Mario & Sonic Rio, and give him a supportive "Attaboy!" in IDW, but... you could sorta read that as Metal being like a dog that Eggman's really proud of more than a son, I suppose.

There's some affection there, but it doesn't seem to be clearly reciprocated, unlike with Sage. Now, this could change in future appearances. In TMOSTH, Metal does wear that "Let's go, Dad!" shirt and all, and since Sega published (but didn't produce) it, it's maybe ambiguously canon, I don't know.

[Kuzu]

Eggman and Metal were more interesting to me when they made it obvious they had two different goals and conflicts.

Metal wants to destroy Sonic while beating Sonic is just a means to an end for Eggman. That's an interesting conflict.

[Dr. Mechano]

34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Eggman and Metal were more interesting to me when they made it obvious they had two different goals and conflicts.

Metal wants to destroy Sonic while beating Sonic is just a means to an end for Eggman. That's an interesting conflict.

It's interesting though, that in Heroes, Metal seems to have ambitions for conquest just like his creator - with that line about wanting to rule a "robot kingdom" and all.

In this moment, he seems to not only be trying to be Sonic's better, but Eggman's as well. Proving he's faster and stronger than Sonic, and a better conqueror and ruler than Eggman.

[Cosmos Rogue]

The Eggdad subplot was, like everything else in Frontiers' narrative, too poorly developed to really care about. I'm not dead set against it returning in a future game, so long as it doesn't overshadow the main plot again, but they'll need to actually give Eggman and Sage a father-daughter dynamic next time. Maybe show Eggman teaching Sage how to give Metal Sonic an oil change.

[Wraith]

I was thrown by the concept because Eggman, historically, only cares about his creations as extensions of his own ego. Eggman talking to Metal Sonic like he's his son in IDW is brought up a lot, but contrast that with how he left him in the snow without even bothering to look for him when he didn't perform in Sonic Mania, or the ease with which he dumpsters the E series for their failure in Sonic Adventure. I've decided to let it slide though because SAGE is both more sentient than anything he's made before and not entirely his creation.

Even with that in mind the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Most of Eggman and Sage's bonding time happens off screen, which is a huge mistake for what's meant to be a turning point for the character. Even when they're together, the dialogue for Eggman and Sage is pretty bog standard, she doesn't really 'enhance' eggman or bring out any fun sides of him in any way you'd expect for a new sidekick. Maybe they still need time to develop a rapport or something but they should still have started planting the seeds for that now.

 

[Soniman]

Eggman and Metal are pretty much always only on the same page. They both want to destroy Sonic, their goals are aligned, there really isn’t anything diametrically opposed about what they want (because why would Eggman build a robot that was?). He only has one appearance in Heroes out of countless others which had him actively betray Eggman, and even then when he was in a position to easily dispose of him he just locked in a cell while he went on to impersonate him and keep running his Empire. I don’t think he’s all that bitter towards the Doctor that people seem to imply 

It was only when Metal’s obsession with surpassing Sonic reached critical mass that he took matters into his own hands, betraying/getting Eggman out of the way was just a necessary step to take to reach his ultimate goal of proving Sonic’s better once and for all, but I don’t think the “betrayal”itself was brought on by any treacherous feelings towards Eggman in particular.

All this to say I really don’t mind the father/son thing they got going on lately, though obviously I wouldn’t push it to the level Sage, more just a funny background thing and no serious emotional weight behind it. Sage, Cubot/Orbot and Metal are all distinct and form a nice group for Eggman to bounce off of in different ways and I’d like to see more of it in the future

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not to mention dynamic of Eggman having a daughter/son he cares about and still being an evil fuck who treats them like disposable weapons isn’t really new, but has its own take on it.

Heck, this was explored not too differently in Archie during pre-Flynn era, and he was an even bigger dick to said children for arguably much more justifiable reasons.

…and I really can’t believe I even said that about a pre-Flynn work.

SAGE is an example of exploring this same dynamic but with a different set of circumstances. Sage is a blend of Eggman and Ancient technology that shows the highest priority among any of his creations within the entire franchise (from the cartoons to the comics and movies) that has overwhelming power and uses it strictly for her creator, keeping him safe even if he complains about it. Really, before SAGE teamed up with Sonic, she has shown she is willing to kill to keep Eggman safe.

You literally cannot say that for any other character that fits the archetype of being “Eggman’s robotic son/daughter.” Even Metal Sonic deviates a lot from this when you compare him to little sister Sage.

[Wraith]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:35 PM, Soniman said:

Eggman and Metal are pretty much always only on the same page. They both want to destroy Sonic, their goals are aligned, there really isn’t anything diametrically opposed about what they want (because why would Eggman build a robot that was?). He only has one appearance in Heroes out of countless others which had him actively betray Eggman, and even then when he was in a position to easily dispose of him he just locked in a cell while he went on to impersonate him and keep running his Empire. I don’t think he’s all that bitter towards the Doctor that people seem to imply 

It was only when Metal’s obsession with surpassing Sonic reached critical mass that he took matters into his own hands, betraying/getting Eggman out of the way was just a necessary step to take to reach his ultimate goal of proving Sonic’s better once and for all, but I don’t think the “betrayal”itself was brought on by any treacherous feelings towards Eggman in particular.

All this to say I really don’t mind the father/son thing they got going on lately, though obviously I wouldn’t push it to the level Sage, more just a funny background thing and no serious emotional weight behind it. Sage, Cubot/Orbot and Metal are all distinct and form a nice group for Eggman to bounce off of in different ways and I’d like to see more of it in the future

 

My point wasn't that the way Eggman treats  Metal in IDW is some kind of contradition. Just that Metal only gets lavished with praise when he performs on some level. When he completely fails or disobeys protocol Eggman treats him like junk. This is a fine trait to have, I just wondered initially why it didn't transfer to Sage.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because, in Eggman's own words, she exceeded his expectations.

Mind you, Frontiers certainly didn't do the best job in showing that, but that still explains it enough. Sage has yet to fail him enough to bring that out...and I'm not sure at this point if failure will actually do so. He might soften up enough to allow it, but treat his lesser machines much like junk.

Gonna be interesting to see future developments on that front.

[Kuzu]

They could just spin it as Eggman clearly playing favorites; have Eggman get increasingly dismissive of Metal with Sage being around. You can just take it from there on where it goes. If they're gonna play this whole "Egg Dad" thing, you may as well develop some conflict out of it. 

How does Metal Sonic feel about Eggman essentially having a new favorite child now? Does he hate it? Indifferent?

[Cosmos Rogue]

19 hours ago, Kuzu said:

They could just spin it as Eggman clearly playing favorites; have Eggman get increasingly dismissive of Metal with Sage being around. You can just take it from there on where it goes. If they're gonna play this whole "Egg Dad" thing, you may as well develop some conflict out of it. 

How does Metal Sonic feel about Eggman essentially having a new favorite child now? Does he hate it? Indifferent?

What's Metal Sonic going to do, rebel against Eggman again? I think the real narrative potential for Eggman favoring Sage over his other creations is how Sage reacts to it. She already seems to think of Orbot and and Cubot as being her brothers. Since family is so important to her, I doubt she'd be happy seeing Eggman giving them the tongue lashings he usually does.

[Kuzu]

25 minutes ago, Cosmos Rogue said:

What's Metal Sonic going to do, rebel against Eggman again? I think the real narrative potential for Eggman favoring Sage over his other creations is how Sage reacts to it. She already seems to think of Orbot and and Cubot as being her brothers. Since family is so important to her, I doubt she'd be happy seeing Eggman giving them the tongue lashings he usually does.

Metal will do something significant for once?

 

But yea, it would be interesting to see how Sage reconciles the fact that her father is a terrible, terrible person to everything that's not him. I doubt she'll have much of a problem though and more just try to help Orbot, Cubot, and Metal Sonic improve their favor with Eggman. 

[Dr. Mechano]

6 hours ago, Kuzu said:

But yea, it would be interesting to see how Sage reconciles the fact that her father is a terrible, terrible person to everything that's not him.

I think she has to know that already, surely?

In Sonic Frontiers, she says she reviewed Eggman's "entire campaign history" while searching for solutions, so she has to be acutely aware of every horrible thing her dear old dad's ever done already. While it's true that Eggman's everyday disrespect to Orbot and Cubot probably isn't significant enough to be documented, I think his campaign history would likely include the details about how - say - he kicked out the E-Series for failing him, or how he reprogrammed Metal Sonic to force him to remain loyal after his initial rebellion.

[Maple Syrup]

It's pretty nice by my standards. I really loved seeing that other side of Eggman that cares his family!  By family, I mean Metal Sonic and Sage. I'm just happy that he cares about them at least.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

14 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I think she has to know that already, surely?

In Sonic Frontiers, she says she reviewed Eggman's "entire campaign history" while searching for solutions, so she has to be acutely aware of every horrible thing her dear old dad's ever done already. While it's true that Eggman's everyday disrespect to Orbot and Cubot probably isn't significant enough to be documented, I think his campaign history would likely include the details about how - say - he kicked out the E-Series for failing him, or how he reprogrammed Metal Sonic to force him to remain loyal after his initial rebellion.

Or, given IDW is canon, the Metal Virus.

Not sure how anyone could put that as a good thing. Shit tops just about any other horrible thing that Eggman has personally caused.

If you’re still on Eggman’s side after that, nothing can change you to the side of the heroes…well, barring any circumstance that makes Eggman throw SAGE out like junk, but we’re not likely to see that any time too soon.

[Dr. Mechano]

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Or, given IDW is canon, the Metal Virus.

Not sure how anyone could put that as a good thing. Shit tops just about any other horrible thing that Eggman has personally caused.

If you’re still on Eggman’s side after that, nothing can change you to the side of the heroes…well, barring any circumstance that makes Eggman throw SAGE out like junk, but we’re not likely to see that any time too soon.

Eggman himself justifies the metal virus in IDW as eliminating hunger, war, and (I'm sure to him it's a good thing) free will.

Like it is true - Eggman basically solved the problem of mortality, just at the cost of people having any choice in how to spend their eternal lives. If you could make a version of the metal virus that preserved the host's personality, it might legitimately be a great thing. Though obviously, it isn't a great thing. It represents Eggman's ideals of absolute order taken to its worst and most extreme conclusion.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, it's pretty clear he's a good guy in his mind. When Sonic says that his methods are filled with evil and Sonic's are not (great reference), Eggman just says, agree to disagree.

[Kuzu]

If Sage supports Eggman's cause and vision of the world (which is objectively terrible) yet at the same time, is meant to admire Sonic's way of life, I'm struggling how those two things are supposed to reconcile. Sage has to know that Eggman and Sonic's ideals are literally incompatible with each other. 

[Dr. Mechano]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

If Sage supports Eggman's cause and vision of the world (which is objectively terrible) yet at the same time, is meant to admire Sonic's way of life, I'm struggling how those two things are supposed to reconcile. Sage has to know that Eggman and Sonic's ideals are literally incompatible with each other. 

Eggman himself admires things about Sonic while still opposing him. Frontiers even has a converation between Eggman and Sage about that. I think what Sage admires about Sonic are individual personality elements, not that she agrees with his ideals or goals for the world (that is, to prevent it from being conquered).

Sage is fond of Sonic to a point (like Eggman himself is), but still believes her father should be in charge of the world. I think that can be reconciled easily enough.

[Kuzu]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Eggman himself admires things about Sonic while still opposing him. Frontiers even has a converation between Eggman and Sage about that. I think what Sage admires about Sonic are individual personality elements, not that she agrees with his ideals or goals for the world (that is, to prevent it from being conquered).

Sage is fond of Sonic to a point (like Eggman himself is), but still believes her father should be in charge of the world. I think that can be reconciled easily enough.

Sage's arc literally through the game is learning to understand and realize what she wants herself through her interactions with Sonic, and by the end, believes in his ability to bring hope as much as the others. That kind of goes beyond liking just a few personality traits when her entire worldview is built off of it. 

Eggman himself states that he still hates Sonic even if he does respect him, which is really not the same thing at all. If Eggman had the chance to kill Sonic, would Sage allow him to do it? 

I'm just wondering if the next game is going to address that in anyway or just conveniently sweep it under the rug so they don't have to deal with it. 

[Dr. Mechano]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Eggman himself states that he still hates Sonic even if he does respect him, which is really not the same thing at all. If Eggman had the chance to kill Sonic, would Sage allow him to do it?

That is a good question.

I have to wonder if Sage might bring up the "logical" solution to this dilemma as something like, "Sonic's consistently proven really useful to have around in case aliens or ancient monsters threaten the world. Even if you take over, maybe you should just keep him alive and imprisoned in case we need him as a secret weapon."

Something like that might satisfy both her compassion for Sonic's life and her support of Eggman's ambitions.

[Kuzu]

I can see that scenario only working once, and where it inevitably bites Eggman in the ass. Whether he takes his frustration out on Sage (since it would have been her suggestion) or just takes it in stride is another story. 

I didn't really care what they did for Eggman and Sage in Frontiers, so hopefully if she sticks around, they do a much better job at justifying her presence and effect on Eggman. 

[Maria.Sosori]

I love wholesome relationships, so I loved his relationship with Sage. However, I'm not certain that it would fit into his character, but I need to do a separate analysis for that. I just feel like it fits yet doesn't at the same time... but I do enjoy it. If this is a one-off occurrence (basically, he doesn't have relationships like this again) it'd feel more refreshing. I just hope this doesn't become overused to the point where he's not really a 'villain' anymore. I also think that in order for their bond to *stay* wholesome, he shouldn't express his affection very often--at least in front of other people. I don't know though.

TL;DR: I like it. But I don't think it should become something larger than how it is now.

[Dr. Mechano]

17 minutes ago, Maria.Sosori said:

 I just hope this doesn't become overused to the point where he's not really a 'villain' anymore.

Eh, it didn't happen to Bowser, you know? He's still the big bad of almost every mainline Mario platformer and even a good handful of the RPGs and other spinoffs.

Giving the villain someone to care about doesn't have to make them lose their villain cred.

[Maria.Sosori]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Giving the villain someone to care about doesn't have to make them lose their villain cred.

True, but I'm mainly thinking of a possibility that he "does evil stuff, then goes and fawns over Sage/[other character]"

Villains can have multiple relationships and emotional attachments, but I don't want Eggman to become one of those who focus too much on it to the point where he doesn't feel very 'cruel' anymore. Little acts of kindness are fine, and I like them! Makes him feel more like someone I'd like to hug. I just don't want that dynamic to be overdone. However, my current stance on that could be coming from the fact that I've been looking at older sonic media (Such as SATAM) where he was more heartless. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Maria.Sosori
added "want" to one of the sentencees