Eggman the Dad: What do you think of Sonic Frontiers' latest developments for Sonic's arch-nemesis?

[Dr. Mechano]

Before we begin, I want to say that this post will contain information about the story of Sonic Frontiers, both the base game and (toward the end) the Final Horizons DLC. I will appropriately spoiler-tag the DLC content, since Final Horizons is so recent, but since the base game is over 10 months old at this point, all information related to it will be unspoiled.

Now then...

Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik has been Sonic's archenemy since 1991. He's played many roles in the past 32 years - from main villain to secondary antagonist to uneasy ally. Consistently, he has been characterized as a power-hungry and selfish man - albeit with arguable fleeting moments of humanity here and there, depending on the portrayal.

Sonic Frontiers has shined a light on that humanity far more intensely than any previous piece of Sonic media. Throughout the game, Eggman gradually forms a bond with his new AI, Sage. Through both the cutscenes and optional Egg Memos, we see Eggman come to appreciate and care for Sage - eventually realizing that he views her not just as a minion, but as his own daughter. Sage - in turn - realizes that she desires a family of her own, and views Eggman as her father.

Eggman is kind to Sage; He praises her, tells her he's proud of her, goes along with her considering Orbot and Cubot her "brothers," and - as we see in the original ending - truly mourns when she sacrifices herself to save him (and the world) from The End. This was not an expendable creation that he simply cut his losses on, like so many badniks or mechs. He was truly sad for her loss, even calling her his "dear daughter" as she ascended to space for what would be her final battle.

...Or would it? In the post-credits scene of the original ending, Eggman brings Sage back. It's unclear how, or what he did to accomplish this, but when Sage says "Father?", you can just hear the love and relief in Eggman's voice as he says "That's my girl."

Just for ease of reviewing this all, Hopezera Gaming helpfully compiled all the scenes of Eggman and Sage from the base game:

And then we have the new story in the Final Horizons DLC!

Spoiler

So, right off the bat, one thing the DLC does is clear up a common misconception some fans had. Some fans worried, "Well, how can Eggman continue to be an effective villain if his daughter is good?"

While it is true that Sage develops some fondness and respect for Sonic over the course of the game, she never actually stopped being loyal to Eggman's schemes for world domination. Final Horizons makes this abundantly clear with this exchange at the start:

Sage: "...so that you may end this conflict and save Father."
Sonic: "And... save the world too, right?"
Sage: "It is his to conquer, so yes."

This makes it clear that Sage is still a villain, despite her character development. So there's no conflict of interest or reason to fear that Eggman's fatherly affection toward her will make him less effective as a villain. If anything, having a hyper-competent AI daughter on his side who's fully on-board with his plans to conquer the world should only make him more effective as a villain. Just because they care about each other doesn't mean that they'll be any less competent or threatening as antagonists in the future.

But that's not all I wanted to talk about with the DLC, no. There's also the matter of the ending. Unlike the base game, instead of Eggman grieving Sage's loss as the stars fall, the two stand on that hill together. And we have this beautiful scene between them:

Eggman: "You did well, Sage. It's time to head home, dear daughter."
Sage: "'Home?' I like the sound of that... Father."

What I love about this ending is that he calls her "dear daughter" to her face, not just after she's flown away and can no longer hear him. Eggman is 100% open with Sage that he views her as his child here. That she's dear to him, that he loves her - not just as a minion or as a tool, but a daughter. It's a beautiful moment, Sage taking her father's hand as she prepares to go home and the credits roll, playing the vocal version of "I'm With You," a song from Sage's point of view, sung to Eggman, about how happy she is to have a loving home with him as her family.

In a strange sort of way, the good ending of Frontiers is the one where the villains get a much happier resolution.

Now, I for one love this development.

I think that it's a natural evolution of Eggman's character, building on the traces of humanity that he's always had. It's always been subtle, and took a backseat to his villainy, but it's been there. We've even arguably seen Eggman express a more understated fatherly affection toward Metal Sonic, both in some of the games (Mario & Sonic at Rio) and the canon IDW comics. So seeing that explored a bit more with Sage feels like a natural development from there.

I also think that it opens a lot of interesting possibilities for the future with Eggman. He now has his own "Bowser Jr." figure, who can both aid him when he's the main villain, or serve as a source of motivation when he isn't. Having Eggman act to protect or help his daughter could be a good way to give him a more heroic motivation in games where someone else is the main antagonist. So I see this as a really versatile plot development, that can allow Eggman to thrive whether he's the main villain or not - You can do a lot of interesting stories exploring this new fatherly side Eggman.

As someone who really likes Eggman as a character, I'm just thrilled at getting to see a more emotional, compassionate side of his character. I've always thought that having at least an undercurrent of sympathetic traits (while still remaining firmly a villain) made Eggman more interesting, more compelling as a character. He's still the bad guy that we need to stop, but he is - as Kishimoto put it ahead of Frontiers' release - a real flesh-and-blood human being too.

But hey, what do you think? Are you a fan of the decision to make Eggman a dad? Or would you have preferred he remained a villain without any familial attachments? Maybe something else? Let everyone know what you think in this topic!

[joe_schmoe99]

Spoiler

I think both the base game and the DLC are a great progression of both Eggman and SAGE's character.

I personally feel that the DLC's story did a much better job at keeping SAGE largely "evil," as she outright explains she's only helping Sonic save the world as a means for her papa to control it later.

As for Eggman himself, I vastly prefer this more human approach to his character, rather than "MWAHAHAHA! I am evil and funny sometimes and nothing else!" It definitely lends itself to the "Ian-ism" that Sonic believes Eggman has the capacity to be good, which I personally like a lot.

SAGE and Eggman's relationship in general is much clearer in the DLC than the base game as well, especially since we get to see it up close and personal rather than through the Egg Memos.

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I'm pretty sure this topic was talked to death when OG Frontiers came out, but my confidence is.

+ Interesting idea. Pollock sells every scene and Sage has pretty good introduction.

- Their "bonding" we seen it still laughable, especially that weird singing moment.

= Ultimately I still must see more games, not just START, but also MIDDLE. I can easily see them being a lovable family together, but I'm skeptical about how they can be threatening villains. How Sage can fight Sonic. How she's fit with egg motive. Can Eggman do stuff like Metal Virus with child around. Etc. Keep in mind, Bowser is a much sillier villain, so he can easily have a kid. He had 7 since 90s.

[Danj86]

Considering the existence of Eggman Nega, we always knew he would get a family at some point. I certainly never expected it to be so wholesome and I'm fine with it as an addition to his character.

Even though he did bring Sage back in the original ending, I was unsure if they would commit to keeping the character around.

Spoiler

But with how the DLC ended, I certainly expect them to keep her around now and I do hope they try to develop the relationship further.

I know I mentioned Eggman Nega as a joke at first but can we even be sure he is human? He's more open to destroying the world after all.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 hours ago, Danj86 said:

Considering the existence of Eggman Nega, we always knew he would get a family at some point. I certainly never expected it to be so wholesome and I'm fine with it as an addition to his character.

Even though he did bring Sage back in the original ending, I was unsure if they would commit to keeping the character around.

  Reveal hidden contents

But with how the DLC ended, I certainly expect them to keep her around now and I do hope they try to develop the relationship further.

I know I mentioned Eggman Nega as a joke at first but can we even be sure he is human? He's more open to destroying the world after all.

Come to think of it, Eggman Nega can instantly disguise himself as Eggman by changing the coloration and appearance of his mustache and clothes. I'd always assumed this was just ridiculous future technology from Nega's time, but if he's some kind of artificial entity, he would be able to easily change his appearance, wouldn't he?

This is a total shot in the dark, but he also has white hair like Sage does. Obviously, AI constructs don't have "genetics" or anything. But I do wonder if Eggman Nega is Eggman's descendant not in the sense that he's his biological descendant, but that Eggman's AI daughter someday will create her own successor, who will create their own successor, and so on - making all of Eggman's descendants AI instead of biological children. 

Or maybe Eggman will have a separate biological child at some later point (who might be considered Sage's sibling), who turns out to be Eggman Nega's ancestor. I don't know, but it is interesting to think about.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I’ve seen more monstrous villains like Silco from Arcane be such a loving father about to sacrifice his dreams for a nation rather than sacrifice his adopted daughter for it…after being shot by said daughter and telling her those words in his dying moments.

Needless to say, if you’re not putting this guy in leather pants, it’s hard for anyone who’s seen Arcane to say this guy didn’t care. And this is a guy who will poison a community with drugs and threaten to kill someone else’s child.

If this guy, who is no where near as silly as Eggman can be, can have sympathetic moments even the audience can deny, so can Eggman.

Mind you, I like shades of grey like this where even villains can be humanized. So I’m all for it.

We can still see these changes as antagonists, but it’s not like we can’t understand these characters.

Also, random thought, I wonder how Eggman and Silco would be if you put them and their daughters, SAGE and Jinx, in the same room for a chat? I bet they’d have a lot in common.

That said, here’s a question: if, gun to the head, Eggman had to pick between SAGE and the Eggman Empire, which do you think he’d go for? Cuz Silco chose Jinx over Zaun—would Eggman make that same choice in a similar circumstance?

[Sean]

It's very cute. I feel there weren't actually enough moments where the two got to bond with each other and reconcile their different approach to things, but it's definitely a relationship I enjoyed seeing and hope gets brought back in future games. I really like Sage too and I don't want her to become some one-off character.

[ZinogreVolt]

I like it. Sage is a fun and well-developed character and I especially like the friction she has with Sonic. Her relationship with Eggman has a sweet conclusion, although I wish we got to see certain Egg Memos scenes as actual cutscenes rather than text/voices. I'd have at least liked to see the scene where Sage makes a joke to Eggman, if only because that's such a stark contrast from how she presents herself in almost every other cutscene. Overall though it's a win for Frontiers' story and a nice shakeup to the status quo.

[Phoenix]

I don't mind it, but it's not something I would've done. I don't like humanising Eggman too much. Something as personal as a daughter he loves changes a lot around him.

[Razule]

I'm glad that they made Omelette real

[Kuzu]

I still don't know how to feel about it and I'm not sure if I'm completely on board with it either, but I can't deny that it is a way of developing Eggman's character away from standard Saturday Morning Cartoon villainy to something resembling nuance. It is kind of ironic this is a game written by Ian Flynn, the guy who probably has highlighted Eggman's worst traits in his tenure as comic writer. I guess I just have to see how they utilize their dynamic in future games, but I can't help but feel it takes some edge out of Eggman, but time will tell where that goes. 

Its kind of like when Mario games just stopped pretending to take anything Bowser does seriously and just started to treat their battles as lighthearted scuffles between friendly rivals. Its not a BAD direction per se, but it does make me feel a little less invested in the conflict. And I can't help but feel that's the direction they're gonna go with Eggman from now on, until an even bigger bad shows up so he can show off his heroic side. 

 

That being said, and to end this post on a hopeful note. Given the allusions they've made towards Gerald and Maria with them, I wonder how this dynamic will play off on other characters. Particularly, Shadow. Eggman says Sage is similar to Maria, but in what sense? We could finally get some insight what was she like by way of all three of them. Maybe Shadow decides to keep an eye on them to prevent another tragedy like what happened on the Ark? Ian Flynn already alluded that Eggman would be far more dangerous if something were to happen to Sage, in the same way Gerald snapped when Maria died. You can maybe start moving Shadow away from his "edgy jerk" reputation by having him take a protective role of Sage as a sort of personal redemption for himself, you can have him and Eggman actually interact for the first time in what feels like forever. 

 

Sage offers probably the biggest potential character shift even more than the ones alluded to for Tails, Knuckles and Amy in Frontiers, because while the latter just feel like teases for change, Sage herself is a pretty big establishment of said change. I can't remember the last time we had a character that had this big of an influence on a established character since the mid 2000's. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I want dangerous Eggman. Someone accidentally kill SAGE

Spoiler

Dr. Mechano, I'm joking...

 

[Kuzu]

Shadow: "Oh fuck, not again!!!" 

[Diogenes]

I'm ok with it. It's pretty undercooked in Frontiers, I don't feel like it's something that needed to happen or that it's a huge benefit to Eggman's character, but I think it can work well enough. It's certainly no detriment to his character; he's not any less evil just because he has one person he cares about, he's still just as committed to his vision for the world, and Sage is fully supportive of his villainy.

What's going to make or break it as a concept is how they use it going forward. Like, is Sage actually going to have a meaningful presence in future games? Now that their relationship is established are they going to be able to develop an entertaining rapport? Is their relationship going to feel like it matters even when it's not a focus of the story? Or is she basically going to be shelved and reduced to "Eggman's AI that tells him not to do the stupidest thing" or something.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What's going to make or break it as a concept is how they use it going forward. Like, is Sage actually going to have a meaningful presence in future games? Now that their relationship is established are they going to be able to develop an entertaining rapport? Is their relationship going to feel like it matters even when it's not a focus of the story? Or is she basically going to be shelved and reduced to "Eggman's AI that tells him not to do the stupidest thing" or something.

I don't think this will be much of an issue with Ian "CONTINUITY" Flynn running the show now (and I use that term endearingly). I'm sure he'll make their dynamic feel relevant even when its not in focus. 

[Diogenes]

I'm no Flynn hater but after Frontiers I have very little faith in his effect on the games.

[Phoenix]

30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm no Flynn hater but after Frontiers I have very little faith in his effect on the games.

Could you expand on that?

[StaticMania]

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Its kind of like when Mario games just stopped pretending to take anything Bowser does seriously and just started to treat their battles as lighthearted scuffles between friendly rivals.

The mainline Mario games specifically do "not" do this. Though, in emphasizing their rivalry...if they aren't working together, you wouldn't ever expect the level of respect that makes Bowser save Mario out of fairness.

I wouldn't assume humanizing Eggman would cause him to stop being a threat or taken seriously, it was a lack of that...and him being upstaged constantly that caused that to happen.

[Red Hot Jack]

I don't think it will impact Eggman being evil that much, I want him to be a formidable villain and Sage, if anything, may be key to that. She wants her father to conquer the world, she is very smart and calculator, she can improve Eggman's strategies and his approach, also she realizes how much Sonic is capable and a threat. All in all, since she sides with Eggman they can work together and make a good family or at least a good team.

As for Eggman himself, yeah it's an unexpected way of giving him character development, I didn't think tbh he was able to feel human affection like that. I've only seen that with his admiration for his grandfather, but it wasn't much anyway, and maybe sometimes when he's proud of what he built in Metal Sonic.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

The mainline Mario games specifically do "not" do this. Though, in emphasizing their rivalry...if they aren't working together, you wouldn't ever expect the level of respect that makes Bowser save Mario out of fairness.

I wouldn't assume humanizing Eggman would cause him to stop being a threat or taken seriously, it was a lack of that...and him being upstaged constantly that caused that to happen.

The main Mario games barely have any story to begin with...

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I'm no Flynn hater but after Frontiers I have very little faith in his effect on the games.

Can't be any better or worse than what we've been getting at this point.

I'm not exactly Flynn's strongest soldier here, but he's always been pretty intune with what's the popular opinion in the fandom.

 

Now granted, I am aware that you are basically against the fandom's popular opinions, but still.

[Diogenes]

7 hours ago, Phoenix said:

Could you expand on that?

I don't want to derail too much, but in short, I feel Frontiers has one of the worst stories in the series; the characters are mostly boring, the villain is a nonentity, the additions to the lore only make things worse, the tone is bad, the pacing is bad, etc etc there are only a couple parts that I have anything positive to say about it at all. And while Flynn isn't responsible for all the problems with it, some clearly have his fingerprints on them, and his involvement sure didn't prevent the other problems.

[Dr. Mechano]

59 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't want to derail too much, but in short, I feel Frontiers has one of the worst stories in the series; the characters are mostly boring, the villain is a nonentity, the additions to the lore only make things worse, the tone is bad, the pacing is bad, etc etc there are only a couple parts that I have anything positive to say about it at all. And while Flynn isn't responsible for all the problems with it, some clearly have his fingerprints on them, and his involvement sure didn't prevent the other problems.

I can agree with some of that.

The End is boring, and I dislike retconning Chaos to be extraterrestrial in origin.

Even the parts I do like, such as the whole Eggdad plotline, was definitely more rushed than I would have liked.

In the end, Frontiers is a story that I like a lot despite itself.

[Kuzu]

Frontiers' story is pretty shit, but nobody really judges it on that and more on its implications for the future than anything.

Because the game not only references past events that fans have been complaining about being forgotten, it also teases potential new developments that may or may not be fulfilled.

If people complained the 2010's were the decade of pandering to people who hated the 2000's incarnation of Sonic, then the 2020's is gonna be the decade of pandering to that exact same crowd, quality be optional.

 

I'm kind of whatever about Frontiers' story, but it's clear they succeeded at touching the emotions of the fanbase, so I expect more of the same from subsequent games. For better or worse....

 

 

[Muscles Maximum]

From the start I truthfully didn’t expect people to respond to Sage so warmly. I haven’t finished the DLC, though I doubt there’d be anything major there  to change my thoughts.

To be honest, I really don’t like her. I don’t like her boring, monotone personality (I get she’s an AI, but this just doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever). I don’t like any of what she has to say. I don’t like her design. I don’t like the “conflict” she has where she begins to turn blue and begin to see Sonic’s their biggest hope. And I especially don’t like the idea of Eggman having her as his lackey in future entries.

That said I’m not against the idea of Eggman having minions or anyone he’s close to. I think Eggman in theory is a strong enough character on his own right that he doesn’t need something like Sage to soften him up or humanize him or whatever. I really enjoy seeing Eggman work with others in his own way. I love the idea of Eggman recruiting characters like Jet or Fang to take care of Sonic. 

What’s most disappointing to me is Metal Sonic is right there waiting on standby if we really needed to see Eggman be a fatherly figure. It’s mostly in side content but it’s really touching to see how proud Eggman can be of his metal boy. I’ve always wanted them to expand on that but it’s never happened in any mainline game. And now with Sage being a thing, I’m sure it never will. I suppose the two can coexist. But the idea of Eggman having a humanoid daughter just doesn’t appeal to me whatsoever, and feels largely unnecessary. I’m not against the big bad having a son or daughter. Bowser Jr is at least a cool design who’s got a fun enough personality and is capable of being frontlines in the action. I’ve always viewed Metal Sonic that way. The ‘Eggette’ fan concept is way more fun and endearing to me than whatever the hell they did with Sage. 

 

[Kuzu]

I was never a fan of the interpretation that Eggman and Metal had any familial relationship; I know it's a popular headcanon, especially with Sage being in the mix now, but it just never gelled with how I've seen these characters act before.

So I'm fine with Sage being Eggman's favorite child that he dotes on instead.