What were the most controversial moments for you in the Sonic Comics?

[captobvious42]

5 hours ago, Lorekitten said:

And obviously there's Endangered Species, which ASO rewrote (almost) entirely into three great issues that tied up practically every dangling plot thread in the entire echidnaverse and quite frankly might even be better than whatever Ian Flynn had originally planned... although to be fair we may never know what Ian Flynn originally planned.

I thought Flynn might have revealed it at some point, but I'm not sure. 

I believe the whole thing with the Endangered Species rewrite was to hurriedly exile Penders' characters from continuity so they could begin distancing him from the series. The Super Genesis Wave kinda finalized it, exiling all the pre-Flynn and SatAM/AoStH characters duing to the contract BS on Archie's part. Its sucked, but I'm pretty sure Archie got sued by another former writer, so it was done out of necessity than anything. (Though I suspect the second lawsuit is probably what killed Archie Sonic.)

[Lorekitten]

1 hour ago, captobvious42 said:

I thought Flynn might have revealed it at some point, but I'm not sure. 

I believe the whole thing with the Endangered Species rewrite was to hurriedly exile Penders' characters from continuity so they could begin distancing him from the series. The Super Genesis Wave kinda finalized it, exiling all the pre-Flynn and SatAM/AoStH characters duing to the contract BS on Archie's part. Its sucked, but I'm pretty sure Archie got sued by another former writer, so it was done out of necessity than anything. (Though I suspect the second lawsuit is probably what killed Archie Sonic.)

Actually, the SatAM/AoStH characters got to stay, and we even got a new one introduced in Breezie in the post-reboot canon.

But yes, pretty much everyone knows that's why Endangered Species was absolutely gutted.

[captobvious42]

Whoops, mis-phrased that. Meant exiling all the NON-Flynn-era and SatAM/AoStH characters. I think he had to fight to keep the non-comic characters.

I know its been said before, but it'd been cool to see the SatAM characters again at some point, even if its as cameos or a one-shot. I kinda feel Sega views them as sorta connected to Penders characters.

Honestly, I think most of the areas were covered. A lot of the things that I can think of being controversial mostly are in retrospect of Penders' either atrocious writing, poor attempts appeal to the youths of the era, or lousy attempts to be edgy. One that comes to mind is the whole implication of Evil Sonic sleeping with a separated Bunnie.

Edited April 12 by captobvious42

[Cuz]

Evil Sonic was sleeping around with half the cast.

[Lorekitten]

39 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Evil Sonic was sleeping around with half the cast.

Yeah. The female half.

[captobvious42]

This isn't as controversial as some, but those stupid magazine-style covers Archie Sonic had for maybe six-twelve issues in the early 2000's? What was the deal behind those? I imagine they were the classic Penders-Era "Trying to be Hip with the Kool Kroud" thing that just ended up being embarrassing.

[Promethean0416]

1 hour ago, captobvious42 said:

This isn't as controversial as some, but those stupid magazine-style covers Archie Sonic had for maybe six-twelve issues in the early 2000's? What was the deal behind those? I imagine they were the classic Penders-Era "Trying to be Hip with the Kool Kroud" thing that just ended up being embarrassing.

From what I read up, that went for seven issues starting at #118 until #124 and discontinued due to immense negative fan reaction. I think three writers were involved with those issues (Penders included until his brief exit from the main series after #124). To answer, as you said it was an attempt from the series to be "Kewwwwwl!", but I honestly do not know who was truly responsible for that idea.

Edited April 15 by Promethean0416

[captobvious42]

Another thought was the whole Future Rotor being gay. I don't mean the fact that he was gay, but HOW it was reveal. The writing was so subtle that no one caught it until Penders (which explains a lot) stated that was the case when Flynn maimed Future Rotor and killed off his partner.

[Lorekitten]

14 hours ago, captobvious42 said:

Another thought was the whole Future Rotor being gay. I don't mean the fact that he was gay, but HOW it was reveal. The writing was so subtle that no one caught it until Penders (which explains a lot) stated that was the case when Flynn maimed Future Rotor and killed off his partner.

In the interest of fairness, it was a different decade and it's probable that Penders not being able to be explicit about it was not his decision to make, and Ian Flynn has gone on record saying that if he'd known how important the character was to Rotor then he wouldn't have killed him off.

Edited April 16 by Lorekitten

[captobvious42]

9 hours ago, Lorekitten said:

In the interest of fairness, it was a different decade and it's probable that Penders not being able to be explicit about it was not his decision to make, and Ian Flynn has gone on record saying that if he'd known how important the character was to Rotor then he wouldn't have killed him off.

Very true, though I believe there's plenty of other media that was able to put plenty of subtext in to hint a potential relationship and still stay under the radar of the moral guardians. I think the fact that the characters weren't really in the forefront of the 25 Years Later comics probably helped. As was the fact that the rest of the comics were about some boring and out-of-place dom-rom com/teen drama that overshadowed the actual decent story.

[Edit] Actually, and this might be more for the Penders/THE LARA SU CHRONICLES topic, but was the fallout of the 25 Years Later story a big reason why Penders bailed? Something about Sega meddling with his storyline by wanting *gasp* more video game characters?

Edited April 17 by captobvious42

[Promethean0416]

13 minutes ago, captobvious42 said:

Very true, though I believe there's plenty of other media that was able to put plenty of subtext in to hint a potential relationship and still stay under the radar of the moral guardians. I think the fact that the characters weren't really in the forefront of the 25 Years Later comics probably helped. As was the fact that the rest of the comics were about some boring and out-of-place dom-rom com/teen drama that overshadowed the actual decent story.

[Edit] Actually, and this might be more for the Penders/THE LARA SU CHRONICLES topic, but was the fallout of the 25 Years Later story a big reason why Penders bailed? Something about Sega meddling with his storyline by wanting *gasp* more video game characters?

Yeah, and I believe it has been mentioned many times by others, including a former fan of his.

But to briefly describe it, due to the negative reviews from the original 25YL stories and Sega taking a more active role in the comic, the editor at the time pushed for more video game characters to be used, including making Shadow an evil king for the story. A certain someone took issue with it, disagreed, walked away, and the change of writers happened that gave us the revised 25YL chapters.

[castell-neath]

Eggman's redesign from game to AoSTH in STC. That was horrendous

[Lorekitten]

I mean, yeah, there is a reason we have a specific dedicated topic to discuss 'that person.' Several reasons. All of the reasons.

[The DOMinator]

4 hours ago, castell-neath said:

Eggman's redesign from game to AoSTH in STC. That was horrendous

If I recall correctly (and if not, someone correct me if I'm wrong), I think one of the guys behind STC, probably Nigel Kitching, stated at some point how it was some sort of mandatory thing from Sega to line up with other merchandise and promotional materials in Europe. Kind of makes sense, as a lot of random non-Japanese things during that period, like books (story, coloring, jokes), some toys, and Sega World used the AoSTH design, even when it was lined up with Knuckles and/or the SatAM Freedom Fighters.

[Adamis]

Pretty much that. SEGA demanded them to use AoStH's design, that's it. They had to do what the licence holder told them to. They got to follow the guidelines from the Sonic Stylebook from 1994.

 

 

[SanPolo4389]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:01 AM, Lorekitten said:

Okay, I'm just gonna say that to me, the breaking up of the core SatAM-era Freedom Fighter group during the Naugus arc should not have happened. That group was a big draw for many adult fans that grew up on SatAM and literally could not find those characters anywhere else in the franchise, so having Sally get roboticized, Antoine blown up, and Bunnie abandoning ship felt like... well, in hindsight, it felt like drama for the sake of drama. Like either Ian Flynn was actively trying to utterly destroy the core Freedom Fighter group as we know it, or was just trying to make the comic 'darker' or with 'higher stakes.'

I feel like that whole part is literally the tale of heroes falling and then rising back up stronger. It’s just that the story doesn’t get to the part with them rising back up so it just feels incomplete. And I understand it and feel sad we’ll never see the conclusion to this. 

[Lorekitten]

3 minutes ago, SanPolo4389 said:

I feel like that whole part is literally the tale of heroes falling and then rising back up stronger. It’s just that the story doesn’t get to the part with them rising back up so it just feels incomplete. And I understand it and feel sad we’ll never see the conclusion to this. 

Yeah... about that...

Sure, it's (probably) not the canonical ending Ian Flynn envisioned, and even if it was it would be entirely coincidental, but Archie Sonic Online is legit. Just... be prepared to do a lot of waiting between issues.

[castell-neath]

On 4/18/2024 at 9:08 AM, Adamis said:

Pretty much that. SEGA demanded them to use AoStH's design, that's it. They had to do what the licence holder told them to. They got to follow the guidelines from the Sonic Stylebook from 1994.

 

 

That Tails art of him flying is horrendous. I always thought it was knock off art. It was official!!???

[SanPolo4389]

12 minutes ago, Lorekitten said:

Yeah... about that...

Sure, it's (probably) not the canonical ending Ian Flynn envisioned, and even if it was it would be entirely coincidental, but Archie Sonic Online is legit. Just... be prepared to do a lot of waiting between issues.

I already know about ASO and yeah this can cefice for that but it sucks theres no official end to that arc. 

[Knight Terror]

Not including anything from penders, probably the depiction of sonic's character in stc.

[The DOMinator]

5 hours ago, castell-neath said:

That Tails art of him flying is horrendous. I always thought it was knock off art. It was official!!???

Yeah, that's just how the artist, Greg Martin, drew him. He (Tails) can be found in several pieces, including cover art, sometimes even doing the same pose, such as these (the 2nd one is an unfinished piece finished by a fan, but still): 

 

In an effort to keep this relevant to the topic though, I'm surprised no one has mentioned anything to do with Pre-Super Genesis Wave Charmy. He has a whole laundry list of controversial moments all to himself, such as: 

• Having a "best friend" revealed and killed off by drugs, all in the same issue:
• Losing his entire colony: 
• Being succumbed to the Egg Grapes, having the life literally sucked out of him: 
• Being freed, but at the cost of being permanently brain damaged (he goes from responsible young adult to young child, all done in an effort to realign him with his game counterpart): 

Ya know, on a similar note, there was Charmy in the Fleetway comics, whom was written to be annoying, and was promptly disregarded by those around him, all the while unaware everybody hated him, including his friends. Such examples include: 

And come to mind, Charmy was one off those affected by the Metal Virus in the IDW comics. Not that's it's necessarily controversial, nor is he being singled out here, but it's still tragic:

Man, is it just me, or does Charmy always seem to get the short end of the stick in the comics?

[Rabbitearsblog]

20 minutes ago, The DOMinator said:

Yeah, that's just how the artist, Greg Martin, drew him. He (Tails) can be found in several pieces, including cover art, sometimes even doing the same pose, such as these (the 2nd one is an unfinished piece finished by a fan, but still): 

 

In an effort to keep this relevant to the topic though, I'm surprised no one has mentioned anything to do with Pre-Super Genesis Wave Charmy. He has a whole laundry list of controversial moments all to himself, such as: 

• Having a "best friend" revealed and killed off by drugs, all in the same issue:
• Losing his entire colony: 
• Being succumbed to the Egg Grapes, having the life literally sucked out of him: 
• Being freed, but at the cost of being permanently brain damaged (he goes from responsible young adult to young child, all done in an effort to realign him with his game counterpart): 

Ya know, on a similar note, there was Charmy in the Fleetway comics, whom was written to be annoying, and was promptly disregarded by those around him, all the while unaware everybody hated him, including his friends. Such examples include: 

And come to mind, Charmy was one off those affected by the Metal Virus in the IDW comics. Not that's it's necessarily controversial, nor is he being singled out here, but it's still tragic:

Man, is it just me, or does Charmy always seem to get the short end of the stick in the comics?

Yeah, Charmy always had it bad in the comics.

[StreetSonic2022]

The most controversial moments during the Archie run... they were a couple that I can remember:

• Obviously for the shipping fans of Sonally was the infamous slap. Boy, oh boy, that WAS something. Shippers was blaming Karl Bollers or Jon Gray left and right during that time.
• Ian Flynn's idea for Charmy's condition with the Egg Grapes
• House of Cards story, need I say more?
• Basically, ANYTHING written by a certain ex-writer because of his ego,  using controversial poems, materials to reflect his real life problems into his works, and even "borrow" exact stuff from other franchises such as Star Wars or Superman. Oh and using certain stuff that was vague but can be a bit too much for the kids: drugs, "underage sex/rape", etc. When he tried to confirm it... ugh, just shut up.

Edited April 20 by StreetSonic2022

[Lorekitten]

44 minutes ago, StreetSonic2022 said:

Basically, ANYTHING written by a certain ex-writer because of his ego,  using controversial poems, materials to reflect his real life problems into his works, and even "borrow" exact stuff from other franchises such as Star Wars or Superman. Oh and using certain stuff that was vague but can be a bit too much for the kids: drugs, "underage sex/rape", etc. When he tried to confirm it... ugh, just shut up.

I'll add to that with something admittedly less serious, but still a problem in my book: completely ignoring that Knuckles was the last of his kind and making half the cast echidnas... and the other half Dad jokes. (Admittedly this last part wasn't solely 'that guy's' fault, as the comic originated as a gag comic so there was absolutely precedent... it just astounds me that Ian Flynn managed to take what was essentially a million monkeys on typewriters lorewise and make Shakespeare from it.)

I refuse to use names like Dr. Quack in my fan fiction out of the principle of the thing. I love good bad puns, but that's scraping the bottom of the barrel (bar and grill).

But seriously, if you're going to write a spin-off (which is essentially officially licenced fan fiction), at the very least show some semblance of respect for the source material.

Edited April 20 by Lorekitten

[Cuz]

What happened to Knuckles kind would count as a hot mystery back in the early days of the franchise. Doesn't surpise me the comics would look to solve that mystery. I mean even Adventure couldn't resist giving us an offical answer when the techology caught up.