The OLD pilot of Sonic X

[Diogenes]

I will reply to both of you with the same comment, in the first games, the classic games, the games that I and most of the people I know grew up with, it was only Eggman.

If there's one, there's bound to be more. Or does only having one fox around make people think only one fox exists?

The other characters that you saw were animals, Sonic didn't meet other humans, he met other animals.

Considering there were only about a half dozen characters, that's not enough to judge the entire population of the world on. They showed the characters that were important because the games didn't have time for NPCs, not because they didn't exist.

You sound like a little child when your response is "That's just bullshit you are totally wrong I am right blah blah blah".

If I sound like a child, it's only because I'm being forced to talk down to people who can't seem to understand otherwise. Honestly, I can't make this any simpler!

Faulty logic maybe, yes humans had to exist at one time, but at that point they weren't around, as far as we know they went extinct.

Now you're just pulling shit out of your ass. Again, are we to assume Tails is also the last of his race, simply because we haven't seen any other foxes?

[Kiljoy]

But it's not.

Sonic Team resolved the issue by clearly showing us that humans have always existed. Professor Gerald and his backstory predate the events of Sonic 1, showing humans were around and thriving before Sonic was even born, and continued to live on through the series to today.

It may have been vague at first, as you said, but it isn't anymore. The "question" of whether humans existed has been answered by canon irrefutable evidence, and it's a non-issue.

I wasn't talking about whether they exist or not, even those that don't want them can't argue that. the opinion part is whether they SHOULD be there. That is their opinion, and as I told Diogenes it's a little childish to attack their opinion and yet still try to say they are the ones acting whiny.

If there's one, there's bound to be more. Or does only having one fox around make people think only one fox exists?

Considering there were only about a half dozen characters, that's not enough to judge the entire population of the world on. They showed the characters that were important because the games didn't have time for NPCs, not because they didn't exist.

If I sound like a child, it's only because I'm being forced to talk down to people who can't seem to understand otherwise. Honestly, I can't make this any simpler!

Now you're just pulling shit out of your ass. Again, are we to assume Tails is also the last of his race, simply because we haven't seen any other foxes?

Yes, Tails is probably the last, because he is a mutant with two tails. You sound like a child because of what I said before, you jump on the other people for their opinion, saying how stupid it is, then complain about them sounding like whiny manchildren. The fox thing is stupid because in the games, as it is in real life, humans have a stronger presence. It's not humans vs hedgehogs and foxes and echidnas; it's Humans vs animals.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Kiljoy

[vgmaster]

But it's not.

Sonic Team resolved the issue by clearly showing us that humans have always existed. Professor Gerald and his backstory predate the events of Sonic 1, showing humans were around and thriving before Sonic was even born, and continued to live on through the series to today.

It may have been vague at first, as you said, but it isn't anymore. The "question" of whether humans existed has been answered by canon irrefutable evidence, and it's a non-issue.

What you need to know is that this is an entirely different continuity. Like I said, this isn't the games. The pilot showed an completely new type of storyline. But true, if it weren't for humans there wouldn't have been a Shadow.

[Jix Hedgehog]

Not a bad find

Problem is , Shadow is already there.. so we're left scratching our heads and wondering.

[Paul Str337]

How old is this? It's the first time I've seen it and I thought I was in the know about stuff like this.

[Agent York]

How old is this? It's the first time I've seen it and I thought I was in the know about stuff like this.

This has to have been around for a while. I saw this like, years ago but I forgot it existed until this topic. I think I saw it in 2004.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Dusk the Crypt Keeper

[Blazey Firekitty]

Yes, Tails is probably the last, because he is a mutant with two tails.

Huh? How does "Tails has a genetic mutation" signify "Tails' parents are probably dead?"O_o

[Flyboy Fox]

Huh? How does "Tails has a genetic mutation" signify "Tails' parents are probably dead?"O_o

Or that there aren't ANY other foxes anywhere? Nah, that's silly.

I mean, it's been pressed that Knuckles is the last of his kind. Emphasised. Which would make no sense if ALL the characters who we've only seen one species example of were also last-of-their-kinds =P

[Blazey Firekitty]

Or that there aren't ANY other foxes anywhere? Nah, that's silly.

I mean, it's been pressed that Knuckles is the last of his kind. Emphasised. Which would make no sense if ALL the characters who we've only seen one species example of were also last-of-their-kinds =P

Exactly. Though, the thought of Tails coming across a "Dark Fox Brotherhood" and thinking "Oh no! I thought I was the last fox on the planet!" is kind of hilarious.XD

[Flyboy Fox]

We could say that he's the only known two-tailed airborne fox that anyone knows of, at least?

[Blazey Firekitty]

We could say that he's the only known two-tailed airborne fox that anyone knows of, at least?

That would make sense. Assuming that no other foxes exist seems silly, but we don't have enough information to suggest that anyone else has multiple tails or flight powers.

[Gabz Girl]

I didn't mind the humans in Sonic X, not at all. It was Chris that annoyed me. And there was no reason whatsoever for him to appear in Season 2 again. He was just there most of the time, what's the point?

I would've liked to have seen an anime with a mix of furries and humans though, moreso in the games. It was an outrage not to see a single character like Sonic in Sonic Unleashed. =/ It would have been cool if Chu-Nan had a red panda and Holaska a penguin or something~

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I will reply to both of you with the same comment, in the first games, the classic games, the games that I and most of the people I know grew up with, it was only Eggman. The other characters that you saw were animals, Sonic didn't meet other humans, he met other animals. Now many people believe it should have stayed that way, that's a complaint and fans are allowed to complain. You sound like a little child when your response is "That's just bullshit you are totally wrong I am right blah blah blah". It didn't always have humans, it had one human, that's how some wanted it to stay.

Killjoy's right, you know.

Cities in the background in Sonic 1 don't prove anything. There were cities in the background in Bad Future Sonic CD, as well, and I don't think anyone claims there were humans swarming all over that transdimensional moonlet. Maybe the cities in Star Light Zone could have been for, y'know, things that there ARE unequivocally demonstrated to be more than one of in the early games, like Sonic-sized anthropomorphic animals?

While I grant that there is at least a retcon in the games universe with the Adventures claiming that humans have been there the whole time, this is very much the opposite of the meta-franchise implication before said games. Fleetway, SatAM, Archie, AoStH - continuities set on MOBIUS with, at most, two humans in a world of anthromorphic animals. Yes, they aren't canon to the games, but there was a time, before Sega decided to globalize the SoJ interpretation instead of the Western one, that they MIGHT have been. In fact, now that I think about it, even the edited Sonic X that we ended up with contains Mobius; Sonic and chums just holidaying on Earth. So we'll throw that in with the other 4 as well.

Now, given that we know full well that tidbits from the Western interpretations and other canons migrate into the the main present day game continuity (the name Robotnik, for one; love of Chilli Dogs, for two; evil technophilic interdimensional echidna enemies of Knuckles' ancestors; SWATbots; roboticization (muchos gracias, Chronicles)), you nonetheless alledge, Gordo and Dio, that it is entirely reasonable to totally ignore a major feature of FIVE subordinate continuities when informing debate about a contentious point in the videogame series?

Edited November 8, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Kiljoy]

Huh? How does "Tails has a genetic mutation" signify "Tails' parents are probably dead?"O_o

Or that there aren't ANY other foxes anywhere? Nah, that's silly.

I mean, it's been pressed that Knuckles is the last of his kind. Emphasised. Which would make no sense if ALL the characters who we've only seen one species example of were also last-of-their-kinds =P

That part was actually a joke, I was just making fun of tails for being different.

[Flyboy Fox]

That part was actually a joke, I was just making fun of tails for being different.

BOO. Go take an anti-discrimination ethics class, now. XP

[Sean]

They did release it on DVD, I have it. D=

Got both pilots on DVDs as extras on the Hi-Spec Japanese Sonic X DVDs.

Ohhhh.

...Care to rip it and send it my way?

[Badnik Zero]

We seem to separate this debate into Sega-game canon and SatAM-Archie canon because people want to talk about Station Square and Mobius. None of these are my favorite setting actually. My main problem with the game and Sonic X settings isn't the human characters, it's that they place Sonic into a human world. It's a human world as much as Mobius was a furry world, and it's a place where Green Hill seems out of place. Which is why my favorite setting is Planet Freedom, the world of the OVA. Signs about this world's history are all over the place, from the downed plane Sonic lives out of, to the ruins of a New York looking city on the surface. The ruins and all the floating terrain suggest something cataclysmic. But there's humans... and animals... and animal humans. And they all live together in one world because there's no backdrop of human or animal civilization. The world is allowed to be as wacky as possible and still hold onto realistic elements in this post-apocalyptic-whatever scenario because all assumptions are out the window. It really was Sonic's own world. Planet Freedom is where I think Sonic should be.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Stretchy Werewolf

[Frozen Nitrogen]

We seem to separate this debate into Sega-game canon and SatAM-Archie canon because people want to talk about Station Square and Mobius. None of these are my favorite setting actually. My main problem with the game and Sonic X settings isn't the human characters, it's that they place Sonic into a human world. It's a human world as much as Mobius was a furry world, and it's a place where Green Hill seems out of place. Which is why my favorite setting is Planet Freedom, the world of the OVA. Signs about this world's history are all over the place, from the downed plane Sonic lives out of, to the ruins of a New York looking city on the surface. The ruins and all the floating terrain suggest something cataclysmic. But there's humans... and animals... and animal humans. And they all live together in one world because there's no backdrop of human or animal civilization. The world is allowed to be as wacky as possible and still hold onto realistic elements in this post-apocalyptic-whatever scenario because all assumptions are out the window. It really was Sonic's own world. Planet Freedom is where I think Sonic should be.

There was a lot of human civilization when the President (who looks like some sort of hilarious Bolivian army genaralissimo) summons S & T to the presidential palace. But it was all wacky techno crystal spires built atop craaazy floating islands in the Land of the Sky. And most importantly, it stayed there, bottled up in its own little pocket of human-ness without seeping out to infest the rest of the fantasy setting with mundane Holoskans and dubious Empire City businessmen paying creepy amounts of attention to six-year-old Spagonian girls.

But I'll agree in general. The OAV was the secondary canon closest to the games, which is a little bizarre considering it had absolutely no resemblance to any of the games' plots at all.

[redmenace]

Now, given that we know full well that tidbits from the Western interpretations and other canons migrate into the the main present day game continuity (the name Robotnik, for one; love of Chilli Dogs, for two; evil technophilic interdimensional echidna enemies of Knuckles' ancestors; SWATbots; roboticization (muchos gracias, Chronicles)), you nonetheless alledge, Gordo and Dio, that it is entirely reasonable to totally ignore a major feature of FIVE subordinate continuities when informing debate about a contentious point in the videogame series?

Taking into account that SOA's first draft for Sonic included him living in Nebraska with his five sisters, yes. Also, if there was no communication between SOJ or SOA to Archie comics for the Sonic Adventure arc, than it's safe to assume they weren't in the loop all that much. They were probably handed out a few quick facts, the western name for the little critters that Sonic saves and that's it. Bunnie is not Johny Lightfoot for example, so they had a lot of creative liberties.

Besides, AOSTH had a lot of humans, though it was named Mobius (something that was never in any manual besides Spinball). It was only SatAM who embraced the planet full of animals perspective and Archie being a continuation of it only makes sense. STC was founded at the time Archie was, and the wirters have said multiple times that they thought they had to use the same concepts as Archie did but halfway in they were told they didn't need to (why they made Grimer instead of including Snively) and they went anmother route with the characters for example. It's also safe to assume they used the setting thinking it was the right one and constructed the world from then. The OVA had humans as well and there's this small piece of animation, man of the year, that was done all the way back in the classics as well, with several humans on it.

It's also logical to think that humans might not be around, even though buildings were present. Sonic 1 and 2 are in two islands in the middle of the ocean, isolated enough for this to work. A couple of islands doesn't speak for the whole planet. Both CD and S3&K were spent in a isolated places to begin with, where the presence of other anthros or humans was deemed impossible by definition (Little Planet and Angel Island).

How can people think ther weren't humans? Eggman didn't come from thin air! Like someone said, only one fox doesn't mean there aren't any more of them.

Edited November 8, 2009 by redmenace

[Frozen Nitrogen]

How can people think ther weren't humans? Eggman didn't come from thin air! Like someone said, only one fox doesn't mean there aren't any more of them.

He's a mad scientist who game canonically breaks down the barriers between dimensions more often than he breaks wind. He got to Mobius somehow in Sonic X, and that's the newest canon.

[Ducktor Naldush]

He's a mad scientist who game canonically breaks down the barriers between dimensions more often than he breaks wind. He got to Mobius somehow in Sonic X, and that's the newest canon.

But not the game one.

[Kiljoy]

But not the game one.

His point was that in all the Sonic canons, including the game, Eggman has immense capabilities.

[Ducktor Naldush]

I thought his point was that Eggman was able to break dimensional barriers and being able to visit a furry world that way, but probably it is a mistake of mine.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Franlight

[Badnik Zero]

There was a lot of human civilization when the President (who looks like some sort of hilarious Bolivian army genaralissimo) summons S & T to the presidential palace. But it was all wacky techno crystal spires built atop craaazy floating islands in the Land of the Sky.

I thought someone would mention this, but you brought up why they weren't ordinary humans at all. There were fantasy elements even on the human side of things, which is what I want to see. Those humans resembled Robotnik, I could understand Eggman being one of them once, before he started with his robotic empire business. Also, am I the only one who got a strong post-apocalypse vibe from the OVA? I felt like the president had a small nation of mostly survivors. And with the ruins and scraps everywhere, it was like they were rebuilding.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Stretchy Werewolf

[Phos]

But it's not.

Sonic Team resolved the issue by clearly showing us that humans have always existed. Professor Gerald and his backstory predate the events of Sonic 1, showing humans were around and thriving before Sonic was even born, and continued to live on through the series to today.

It may have been vague at first, as you said, but it isn't anymore. The "question" of whether humans existed has been answered by canon irrefutable evidence, and it's a non-issue.

You're implying that Sonic Adventure 2 is accurate to the classic games, which it clearly is not. For it to be accurate, you're going to have to reconcile why falling from orbit suddenly became such a problem in this game.

Then there's the matter of Eggman himself. Many people say he's a human, but is he really? He doesn't look the slightest bit like the other humans. You might as well say that Martin the Warrior would be a perfectly acceptable addition to the series because he's a mouse.