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MT | Sonic Prime (Netflix, TV Series) - General Discussion


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21 hours ago, Kuzu said:

A lot of people simply don't care about Sonic plot, and whenever it tries to have it, it does it badly. So the logic is the series should just be as simple as possible if it can't really handle trying to plot.

I'm one of those people. I hate Sonic stories that try so hard to be serious they forget they're about a blue hedgehog who can spin so fast he becomes a cannon ball. I may not care much for SA2 or Shadow's over all plot but at least they tried to incorporate some humor into the mix even if most of it was relegated to level design and only a handful of cutscenes (Though as funny as Eggman's tantrum is how did no government take his threat seriously. He blew up the friggin moon!).

To me the best mix of serious and humor have been SA1, Unleashed and Ian Flynn's comic work.

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24 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I'm one of those people. I hate Sonic stories that try so hard to be serious they forget they're about a blue hedgehog who can spin so fast he becomes a cannon ball. I may not care much for SA2 or Shadow's over all plot but at least they tried to incorporate some humor into the mix even if most of it was relegated to level design and only a handful of cutscenes (Though as funny as Eggman's tantrum is how did no government take his threat seriously. He blew up the friggin moon!).

To me the best mix of serious and humor have been SA1, Unleashed and Ian Flynn's comic work.

Here's the thing though, how about instead of saying "lawl Sonic shouldn't have a plot" because complaints like that can lead to the boring and tepid shit that we got in Sonic Boom.

Now if your preference is for Sonic to just be a simplified comedy series, fine. But you're going to need more than just comedy if you want to entice people beyond  children.

I liked Sonic Boom for what it was, but there's literally nothing to that series other than jokes. The writers straight up admitted that they focused more on writing comedic jokes than actually developing an engaging plot. I could get as much mileage watching clips on Twitter from Sonic Boom.

 

 

That's why I would prefer something somewhat more substantial. Instead of talking about how bad it COULD be, how about you talk about ways that it can be improved? If Sonic's attempts at being profound have failed, then what can be done to improve that? Because if all you're gonna do is just say "Don't do it because its not needed" then we're just gonna another tepid show like Sonic Boom.

Once again, if that's your preference fine but I would prefer something anyone from any age group can be engaged. Something for both children and adults.

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51 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Here's the thing though, how about instead of saying "lawl Sonic shouldn't have a plot" because complaints like that can lead to the boring and tepid shit that we got in Sonic Boom.

Now if your preference is for Sonic to just be a simplified comedy series, fine. But you're going to need more than just comedy if you want to entice people beyond  children.

I liked Sonic Boom for what it was, but there's literally nothing to that series other than jokes. The writers straight up admitted that they focused more on writing comedic jokes than actually developing an engaging plot. I could get as much mileage watching clips on Twitter from Sonic Boom.

 

 

That's why I would prefer something somewhat more substantial. Instead of talking about how bad it COULD be, how about you talk about ways that it can be improved? If Sonic's attempts at being profound have failed, then what can be done to improve that? Because if all you're gonna do is just say "Don't do it because its not needed" then we're just gonna another tepid show like Sonic Boom.

Once again, if that's your preference fine but I would prefer something anyone from any age group can be engaged. Something for both children and adults.

This is a great take. Cause if that was the case we may as well just hope the neflix show is another season of boom

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5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Here's the thing though, how about instead of saying "lawl Sonic shouldn't have a plot"

I...didn't say that? In fact I listed three different instances of where I thought the plot worked. I'm saying there's a fine line between stories where things have stakes and can feel intense but also having levity to back it up and stories about Sonic being arrested by the government that murdered a child and covered it up.

Ok rereading your original post I think I missed your point. While no I don't care for attempts at making Sonic "dark and serious" I don't think it should be without a plot that's just stupid. I just think that plot shouldn't reach the ridiculous levels of games like SA2, Shadow, 06 or honestly even Forces. All these games plots are honestly pretty comparable IMHO. They all try too hard to be seen as darker takes and I think they really suffer for it.

Games like SA1 and Unleashed and the Rush series strike a good balance that I really wish was more the norm. Though frankly I think Sonic's personality right now is the best it's ever been but that's a different argument altogether. 

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5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Here's the thing though, how about instead of saying "lawl Sonic shouldn't have a plot" because complaints like that can lead to the boring and tepid shit that we got in Sonic Boom.

Now if your preference is for Sonic to just be a simplified comedy series, fine. But you're going to need more than just comedy if you want to entice people beyond  children.

I liked Sonic Boom for what it was, but there's literally nothing to that series other than jokes. The writers straight up admitted that they focused more on writing comedic jokes than actually developing an engaging plot. I could get as much mileage watching clips on Twitter from Sonic Boom.

 

 

That's why I would prefer something somewhat more substantial. Instead of talking about how bad it COULD be, how about you talk about ways that it can be improved? If Sonic's attempts at being profound have failed, then what can be done to improve that? Because if all you're gonna do is just say "Don't do it because its not needed" then we're just gonna another tepid show like Sonic Boom.

Once again, if that's your preference fine but I would prefer something anyone from any age group can be engaged. Something for both children and adults.

I agree with this.  I always found the Sonic franchise to not just cater to kids (although that is the main audience), but also to adults.  I think some of the best Sonic stories have content that's fun for kids, but meaningful for the adults, like the Sonic Adventure series.

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18 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I...didn't say that? In fact I listed three different instances of where I thought the plot worked. I'm saying there's a fine line between stories where things have stakes and can feel intense but also having levity to back it up and stories about Sonic being arrested by the government that murdered a child and covered it up.

Ok rereading your original post I think I missed your point. While no I don't care for attempts at making Sonic "dark and serious" I don't think it should be without a plot that's just stupid. I just think that plot shouldn't reach the ridiculous levels of games like SA2, Shadow, 06 or honestly even Forces. All these games plots are honestly pretty comparable IMHO. They all try too hard to be seen as darker takes and I think they really suffer for it.

Games like SA1 and Unleashed and the Rush series strike a good balance that I really wish was more the norm. Though frankly I think Sonic's personality right now is the best it's ever been but that's a different argument altogether. 

These games are not bad because they're dark, they're bad because the fucking badly written. There is a difference. SA1 also has dark moments in case you forgot about the water god committing genocide :V

This is what I mean; even if you have a personal distaste for the types of stories those games attempted, that doesn't mean they were inherently wrong to do so nor does that mean that they couldn't be improved in way that puts them more in line with the rest of the series. 

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

These games are not bad because they're dark, they're bad because the fucking badly written. There is a difference. SA1 also has dark moments in case you forgot about the water god committing genocide :V

This is what I mean; even if you have a personal distaste for the types of stories those games attempted, that doesn't mean they were inherently wrong to do so nor does that mean that they couldn't be improved in way that puts them more in line with the rest of the series. 

Yeah agreed, with the exception of SA2.

It seems like there’s an overall inability here to distinguish a detailed plot from a serious plot, let alone a dark one, as well as a simple plot from a plot that’s full of jokes.  It’s just plain folly to say that the Sonic Boom show has no plot, for no other reason than that the main point of the show is to tell jokes.  In fact, it objectively has a more detailed plot than any of the Genesis games.
 

I think the real issue with Boom is what was sacrificed for the sake of telling jokes: Namely, high stakes as a result of villainy.  Eggman (in games, at least) has always had a silly, playful side, but he’s also always been a threat.  He didn’t ever get as willingly genocidal as in the Adventure games before or after, but he’s always been willing to do enough to further his plans that there’s a sense of urgency to stopping him.  Eggman is not a threat in Sonic Boom (the show at least; I can’t speak as much for the games); that’s the big joke.  Or sometimes the big joke in Sonic Boon is that he IS a threat, but nobody really acts like he is at any time other than when they’re fighting him; off duty he’s just another person doing normal person things.  Same difference, or near-enough.

The bottom line to all of this is I don’t think many people are demanding their games, or their shows based on games, to be dead-serious and bleak, but is it too much to ask that when an action game series’ quintessential plots are based on the actions of villains—as the vast majority of action game series’ plots are—they treat this as important?  I don’t need to be shown the villain committing large-scale atrocities to prove he’s a threat, but can’t characters at least act like he is?

Once upon a time, the “punch-card villain” and “villains out shopping” tropes were subversively funny.  But it seems like they’re almost the norm now—not even necessarily as jokes.  Despicable Me, Mega Mind, Wreck it Ralph, all of the WB LEGO movies, the Unikitty spin-off, all downplay the notion that the obvious villains are really a threat.  I want to get out of this trend, even though I like all or most of the works noted.

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That's just kind of a modern trend in media nowadays; the idea that villains aren't evil, they're just misunderstood. Its not bad to flesh out your villain beyond "I'M EVIL", but it really does kind of subvert the apparent conflict. 

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40 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's just kind of a modern trend in media nowadays; the idea that villains aren't evil, they're just misunderstood. Its not bad to flesh out your villain beyond "I'M EVIL", but it really does kind of subvert the apparent conflict. 

Not if done well.  The Joker—at least in his more hammy incarnations—is a great example of a villain who is obviously evil but also obviously has personality traits besides evil.  Similar to the aforementioned Eggman, he’s a fun-loving, goofy guy who happens to view killing people as one of the things he finds fun, and doesn’t have empathy to stop him.  People are complex, made of many parts, but some of them are just missing empathy; same as some people lack the use of their legs.  That has been psychologically shown.  Other villains may not lack empathy, they may have more sympathetic motives to do what they do, but to understand shouldn’t mean to act as if what they do isn’t a threat.  

Eggman can be simultaneously a big threat and a guy who likes to have a lot of fun; this has been shown with his creative robot designs, his theme park, his big swimming pool in the Egg Carrier, is artistic base designs and amusement parks, etc.  Past games showed that Eggman had other sides to him besides his dangerous side, but didn’t act like they made that side LESS dangerous.

And while some media indeed presents plots about villains being just misunderstood, troubled people who wouldn’t be villains if they could get past those troubles, Sonic Boom doesn’t really do that at all.  Eggman constantly being a villain but not treated as such whenever he’s not being one is just a joke in the show.  There is no deep and serious analysis of what made him sociopathic (Except by Amy sometimes, as it fit her chic liberal personality); only nonchalance towards that sociopathy.

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Which incarnations of the Joker are you referring to? Because I can't really recall any that stray too far from his established characterization as a Monster clown who enjoys killing for fun and just wants to cause mayhem. Generally, Joker's incarnations lend to either more comedic or more horrific depending on the tone of the show he's in.  This is the main reason they're selective with his backstory, because the writers specifically don't want to ruin the mystique surrounding the character. 

 

52 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Personally, I kinda like that sense of moral grey. Makes the character more 3-dimensional—and really, what’s wrong with understanding even the villain?

Absolutely nothing, I just personally enjoy villains who enjoy what they do while simultaneously being dangerous. The moral greyness adds to their character without a doubt, but it also can make it difficult to see them as a villain if they're too sympathetic. 

The Ice King from Adventure time is a good example; after the reveal that he's actually a mentally ill man being corrupted, it was REALLLLY difficult to see him as a villain anymore after that. 

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35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Which incarnations of the Joker are you referring to? Because I can't really recall any that stray too far from his established characterization as a Monster clown who enjoys killing for fun and just wants to cause mayhem. Generally, Joker's incarnations lend to either more comedic or more horrific depending on the tone of the show he's in.  This is the main reason they're selective with his backstory, because the writers specifically don't want to ruin the mystique surrounding the character. 

Generally the incarnation in Batman The Animated Series, but The Killing Joke is also a good example in that it shows his evil is a big threat, but he also tells a joke that even makes Batman laugh.  I like The Joker best when he’s both genuinely terrifying and genuinely funny.  Maybe not at the same time, but in the same incarnation.

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35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Which incarnations of the Joker are you referring to? Because I can't really recall any that stray too far from his established characterization as a Monster clown who enjoys killing for fun and just wants to cause mayhem. Generally, Joker's incarnations lend to either more comedic or more horrific depending on the tone of the show he's in.  This is the main reason they're selective with his backstory, because the writers specifically don't want to ruin the mystique surrounding the character. 

 

Absolutely nothing, I just personally enjoy villains who enjoy what they do while simultaneously being dangerous. The moral greyness adds to their character without a doubt, but it also can make it difficult to see them as a villain if they're too sympathetic. 

The Ice King from Adventure time is a good example; after the reveal that he's actually a mentally ill man being corrupted, it was REALLLLY difficult to see him as a villain anymore after that. 

Tbf Ice King was always written to be kind of pathetic and pitiable from the beginning. And I always treated Simon and the Ice King as different characters anyway (the crown literally gave him split personalities after all) so it didn't really change much about my perception of him. 

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I've been binging Star Wars: The Clone Wars on Disney+ and i'd be intruiged to see that kind of narrative structure for a show, as a sort of war anthology, to use Forces as a a template. Maybe some episodes we follow Sonic, the next few episodes we follow the resistance, and these episodes we follow Blaze and Silver (cos Classic Sonic will be as far away from this as possible). Maybe have a few episodes explaining where the fuck was Shadow during the 6 months Eggman was pissing on the whole earth, I mean Mobius, I mean THE MOON.

But since Sega wants Sonic as the undisputed main character and so he needs to be in everything (to the extent where Forces had two sonics, cos it'd be hard to tell it was a sonic game if it only had 1 sonic in it), they might not approve of this sort of structure that shares the spotlight between groups of characters.

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2 hours ago, BadBehavior said:

I've been binging Star Wars: The Clone Wars on Disney+ and i'd be intruiged to see that kind of narrative structure for a show, as a sort of war anthology, to use Forces as a a template. Maybe some episodes we follow Sonic, the next few episodes we follow the resistance, and these episodes we follow Blaze and Silver (cos Classic Sonic will be as far away from this as possible). Maybe have a few episodes explaining where the fuck was Shadow during the 6 months Eggman was pissing on the whole earth, I mean Mobius, I mean THE MOON.

But since Sega wants Sonic as the undisputed main character and so he needs to be in everything (to the extent where Forces had two sonics, cos it'd be hard to tell it was a sonic game if it only had 1 sonic in it), they might not approve of this sort of structure that shares the spotlight between groups of characters.

The IDW comics are at least trying, to say the least. Mania also has only one Sonic, plus four other playable characters. They’re beginning to step away from the extremes of Colors.

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Wish this was 2D. Like games, I'm not against 3D, just disappointed than 2D usually takes a backseat these days, even if it's cost effective. 

Also, hope we get something closer to the games this time. Sonic X kinda tried, but I still ended up not liking most of the show. Very unfocused, especially the Adventure adaptation arcs.

Ever since I saw Mega Man of Action, I lost interest. I heard it gets better, but if I already don't care for the first half.... not exactly filled with confidence in their take on Sonic, but hey we'll see.

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Anyone else think it's weird it's been 2 weeks since this was mistakenly posted and we still haven't seen it reposted? It's just like there should have been an official announcement by now right? It couldn't have been tweeted by accident that far in advance.

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2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Anyone else think it's weird it's been 2 weeks since this was mistakenly posted and we still haven't seen it reposted? It's just like there should have been an official announcement by now right? It couldn't have been tweeted by accident that far in advance.

I'm guessing they are waiting until the middle of 2021 before they give out anymore details.  They are probably working on the show right now or maybe later, so they probably don't want to give out anymore details until the show is in production.

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10 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I'm guessing they are waiting until the middle of 2021 before they give out anymore details.  They are probably working on the show right now or maybe later, so they probably don't want to give out anymore details until the show is in production.

Well yeah but if they had a tweet ready to announce it queued up that would make me think it was going to be announced sooner rather than later. 

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5 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Well yeah but if they had a tweet ready to announce it queued up that would make me think it was going to be announced sooner rather than later. 

I think they were originally going to show this news during the Game Awards, but somehow, they weren't able to.

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1 hour ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I think they were originally going to show this news during the Game Awards, but somehow, they weren't able to.

Could be the possibly similar reason just like they were going to show something about the Sonic movie at last year's Game Awards, but somehow they couldn't.

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Since the cat is out of the bag, an official announcement isn't exactly news anymore. We already know its coming.

 

In terms of generating buzz, they may as well sit on the official announcement until they have something to show with it. A title card, a splash panel, character renders, something. Just re-submitting the same tweet won't move any needles.

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1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Since the cat is out of the bag, an official announcement isn't exactly news anymore. We already know its coming.

 

In terms of generating buzz, they may as well sit on the official announcement until they have something to show with it. A title card, a splash panel, character renders, something. Just re-submitting the same tweet won't move any needles.

I agree.  I think they are going to do more with the cartoon news next year when it's much closer to 2022 or when they have footage of the cartoon series.

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