Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[E-122-Psi]

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The idea that a girl being shot is "taboo" but Echidna genocide is fine is ludicrous to me.

I can't tell if people have preferences or they're literally just that sensitive to this stuff...

You're seriously saying there is zero difference in execution between the obscured and mostly told only karmic death of the Echidna tribe and the hands of a water monster, against a human girl being blatantly shot and slowly dying onscreen by a corrupt military that still thrives unpunished to this day?

Sure, maybe if we shown the Echidnas graphically dying it would cross the same line, but one uses the standards and methods of the series' usual storytelling to keep it ginger and in tone, while the other sounds like it could have easily been put into any sci fi thriller.

Compare also Gamma's 'death' to some of the others in the series.

 

Also didn't Elise's father die onscreen too? The spin offs of the time also got kinda morbid about it, especially the comics and the last season of Sonic X.

[McGroose]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Eggman is boring now

So was mostly everything else. At least now it's Eggman. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

You're seriously saying there is zero difference in execution between the obscured and mostly told only karmic death of the Echidna tribe and the hands of a water monster, against a human girl being blatantly shot and slowly dying onscreen by a corrupt military that still thrives unpunished to this day?

There’s been worse in Disney movies outside Star Wars and Marvel, so yeah.

 

[DabigRG]

26 minutes ago, McGroose said:

 

 

I don't care if we see Dark Gaia's minions all throughout Unleashed, why should I? That's not Dark Gaia, those are Dark Gaia's mooks.

Technically, it is--Dark Gaia collapsed under it's own weight for the same reason Chip lost his memory and the monsters are the result of that. Thus, while Sonic had to bring the Emeralds to each Temple of Gaia to eventually fix the Light, Eggman used a radio tower to send out waves to attract the monsters to one place so that they can recombine into their original form.

 

32 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Metal.

 

Oh.

His background and physiology is that he's a robot who somehow has a copy ability and his psychology is that he needs to find a way to finally defeat Sonic. That's 85% of what character or rather programming he has.

[Shadowlax]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I guess an ancient civilization going power hungry and paying for trying to trifle with said magic is a broad enough net to cast without getting too specific.

Meanwhile, a soldier shooting a girl in the back is a little too direct, not mention real.

Wait, admit what now?

The point was that different kids grew up with different sonic and this generation of kids and the ones that followed like sonic in a very unironic way. To make this point as fullest as it could be , he would have to admit that there are people who are children or who were children that grew up with adventure era sonic. These people are valid and apart of the group he's talking about. That that was the start of a very unironic love of cheesey material and characters.  He then attempts to " subtlety " call that era ' lame" and proceeds to not make his point for about 19 minutes

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

The point was that different kids grew up with different sonic and this generation of kids and the ones that followed like sonic in a very unironic way. To make this point as fullest as it could be , he would have to admit that there are people who are children or who were children that grew up with adventure era sonic. These people are valid and apart of the group he's talking about. That that was the start of a very unironic love of cheesey material and characters.  He then attempts to " subtlety " call that era ' lame" and proceeds to not make his point for about 19 minutes

Huh. Not gonna comment since I'm not familiar with whoever, just wanted clarification on that.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Huh. Not gonna comment since I'm not familiar with whoever, just wanted clarification on that.

That's fair. I'm just making the point of some people will just say things don't count and are different because they don't like it. With out any real attempt at explaining its just...different and bad

[McGroose]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Technically, it is--Dark Gaia collapsed under it's own weight for the same reason Chip lost his memory and the monsters are the result of that. Thus, while Sonic had to bring the Emeralds to each Temple of Gaia to eventually fix the Light, Eggman used a radio tower to send out waves to attract the monsters to one place so that they can recombine into their original form.

 

Oh.

His background and physiology is that he's a robot who somehow has a copy ability and his psychology is that he needs to find a way to finally defeat Sonic. That's 85% of what character or rather programming he has.

But I just don't care if that's supposed to be Dark Gaia by the slightest technicality. Chaos was Chaos from the start. We don't see the actual Dark Gaia until the end, not including his purple transluscent phase in the beginning cutscene before he fell apart. Still, Dark Gaia does have all that over the other MOTW, so I'll give him second place.

Now, even with all that about Metal Sonic being true, what does that have to do with his final Dragon form? He could easily have just turned into a giant Metal Sonic akin to Metal Sonic Kai from Chaotix or something like that, which would have been a much more satisfying idea and would have actually tied the game quite nicely to Chaotix in a way. His purpose had nothing to do with his final design, that was a definite artistic choice. 

[DryLagoon]

40 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Remember the Rock Guardian boss from Sandopolis? I thought that was neat - it was simplistic in design, not overly complicated. It was nothing but a giant humanoid rock. Hey, you know what, it worked. I liked that boss... just wish he jumped a little quicker.

There's a lot to go over, but I just wanted to say I wonder if this boss inspired the Egg Golem boss in SA2.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[McGroose]

2 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

There's a lot to go over, but I just wanted to say I wonder if this boss inspired the Egg Golem boss in SA2.

  Hide contents

 

I believe it was official confirmed it did, but don't quote me on that one. Also, I the think the SA2 design in particular for this boss was more inspired by the Sonic 3 Rock Gaurdian's comic book design. Which is a lot more detailed than the design the old Genesis game gave him. 

Edit: here's what I'm talking about

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Guardian_(Sonic_the_Comic)

[DryLagoon]

26 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The spin offs of the time also got kinda morbid about it, especially the comics and the last season of Sonic X.

It caught me off guard when knight Knuckles attempted to off himself in Black Knight. Not only that, but it was in both the English and Japanese version, I had assumed they would censor it. Nothing graphic is shown, but still.

10 minutes ago, McGroose said:

I believe it was official confirmed it did, but don't quote me on that one. Also, I the think the SA2 design in particular for this boss was more inspired by the Sonic 3 Rock Gaurdian's comic book design. Which is a lot more detailed than the design the old Genesis game gave him. 

Edit: here's what I'm talking about

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Guardian_(Sonic_the_Comic)

I noticed that, I wasn't sure if it was just the comic's design or if a manual also gave it more detail. Still pretty cool to see another way it took influence from Classic.

[thumbs13]

55 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The idea that a girl being shot is "taboo" but Echidna genocide is fine is ludicrous to me.

I can't tell if people have preferences or they're literally just that sensitive to this stuff...

Yes. Fantasy deaths and realistic deaths are always treated differently. The colorful echidnas being killed by a water demon and a realistic girl being shot by the military are not the same. Gamma blowing up and Shadow falling from space are honestly more in line with how deaths in Sonic should be. Meaningful, but not overly detailed. 

[DryLagoon]

9 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Yes. Fantasy deaths and realistic deaths are always treated differently. The colorful echidnas being killed by a water demon and a realistic girl being shot by the military are not the same. Gamma blowing up and Shadow falling from space are honestly more in line with how deaths in Sonic should be. Meaningful, but not overly detailed. 

I find it a bit amusing the ESRB lists it as E10+ for "Mild Cartoon Violence". I wonder if they saw the Maria scene when rating it. Also "Mild Lyrics" for calling Rouge "sexy" in one song. (there was also a "damn" that got cut from Death Chamber) I find the switch from SA2 to Heroes to Shadow kind of funny in hindsight, like tonal whiplash.

Edit: It seems it got the rating for "damn" even though the in level version doesn't use it, not "sexy" like I originally thought. No mention of the Maria scene either.

Quote

In this action platformer, players control Sonic the Hedgehog and his friends as they attempt to stop Dr. Eggman and his minions from taking over the world. As Sonic, players zoom across fantastical landscapes, collect gold rings and power-ups, and use spin attacks to defeat robotic enemies. In some sequences, characters pilot oversized robots that use rockets and lasers to defeat mechanical creatures; enemies break apart amid colorful explosions. During some boss battles, players must avoid “cartoony” gunfire and rockets. The theme song for one playable character contains the word “damn.”

 

[DabigRG]

19 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Now, even with all that about Metal Sonic being true, what does that have to do with his final Dragon form? He could easily have just turned into a giant Metal Sonic akin to Metal Sonic Kai from Chaotix or something like that, which would have been a much more satisfying idea and would have actually tied the game quite nicely to Chaotix in a way. His purpose had nothing to do with his final design, that was a definite artistic choice. 

That's the result of him copying Sonic, Shadow, and remnants of Chaos--the three most powerful characters at the time--and then reshaping himself using random parts from the Final Fortress's tower.

And he turned into that because it was a form that was powerful enough to defeat Sonic and maybe even Super Sonic, now that I think about it.

22 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

There's a lot to go over, but I just wanted to say I wonder if this boss inspired the Egg Golem boss in SA2.

  Hide contents

  Hide contents

 

I pretty sure it did.

Also, what the hell is up with it's eyes?

[Chaos Control Freak 2.o]

Personally, I suggest that we bring a new ‘06 to the Sonic franchise.

Develop all the main cast (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Amy) in a fun, Mania Style game. 

Bring Back Metal Sonic. And Memphis.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Yes. Fantasy deaths and realistic deaths are always treated differently. The colorful echidnas being killed by a water demon and a realistic girl being shot by the military are not the same. Gamma blowing up and Shadow falling from space are honestly more in line with how deaths in Sonic should be. Meaningful, but not overly detailed. 

 

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

You're seriously saying there is zero difference in execution between the obscured and mostly told only karmic death of the Echidna tribe and the hands of a water monster, against a human girl being blatantly shot and slowly dying onscreen by a corrupt military that still thrives unpunished to this day?

Sure, maybe if we shown the Echidnas graphically dying it would cross the same line, but one uses the standards and methods of the series' usual storytelling to keep it ginger and in tone, while the other sounds like it could have easily been put into any sci fi thriller.

Compare also Gamma's 'death' to some of the others in the series.

 

Also didn't Elise's father die onscreen too? The spin offs of the time also got kinda morbid about it, especially the comics and the last season of Sonic X.

Maybe I'm just the weird one because I grew up in the time when this was considered "normal" 

 

Which also exists in the same movie as this...

 

 

But no, I don't see a difference; what I'm seeing though is some of you have probably never really been exposed to early Disney films, which are arguably darker than anything Sonic has put out ever. But oh, guess Sonic isn't allowed to do any of that. Has to be implied or never shown (even though it was already doing that) because we'll damage the fragile little minds of the children and the adults who have built up certain expectations about the series.

Woot, looking forward to more of the Deadly Six, the best Sonic characters around; simple enough that kids don't have to use their brains to process complex characterization. Can't have that now can we, things need to be simple after all. 

[Diogenes]

Not having as much death as you want doesn't make a thing worthless.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, McGroose said:

So was mostly everything else. At least now it's Eggman. 

So being Eggman automatically  makes it better huh; guess execution doesn't mean shit anymore. 

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Not having as much death as you want doesn't make a thing worthless.

We're literally talking about one or two deaths, that are still ultimately implied and never outright stated. But THAT is still apparently "too much" for this series. 

So I guess the series just is never allowed to be anything more than a lighthearted, whimsical adventure otherwise "it's too dark"

[DabigRG]

Alright, Kuzu, I think we've had enough of that tangent for now. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

We're literally talking about one or two deaths, that are still ultimately implied and never outright stated. But THAT is still apparently "too much" for this series. 

So I guess the series just is never allowed to be anything more than a lighthearted, whimsical adventure otherwise "it's too dark"

You can write meaningful stories without death at all. It doesn't have to be nothing but whimsy.

And the number of deaths isn't the only factor. It is different for a bunch of faceless background characters to get killed offscreen by a monster in a far-past flashback, compared to a young girl we (somewhat) get to know and who has a strong connection to a main character being shot. It's not impossible to draw a line that includes one but not the other.

[Wraith]

"Deaths can happen but it can't be anyone the audience might care about" is insane logic. The entire point is that it's supposed to make you sad. 


I'm not sure who you're trying to protect with this. Kids can handle it. 

[Kuzu]

I mean, said background characters are also related to one of the main characters of the game it was in, and one of the flashback characters who died was also one of the only girls we actually got to know in it. 

But whatever, I'm gonna drop this because at this point we're arguing over something that's subjective at the end of the day.

 

 

To bring this back to the actual topic at hand; when the Zeti actually become characters worth caring about beyond just being more fodder villains for Sonic to beat up on, I'll accept them. As they are now tho, I don't really care about them one way or another.  I'll give the comics credit for actually giving them something substantial to do to actually make them feel threatening for once however, it doesn't make up for being boring antagonists, but it's something at least. 

[StaticMania]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Deaths can happen but it can't be anyone the audience might care about"

I mean, don't a bunch of anime run off this logic? That might be the logic with a lot of cookie-cutter villains as well.

The 6 deadly Zeti only come back because it's not a good idea to constantly run through disposable villain designs..

[Wraith]

Just now, StaticMania said:

I mean, don't a bunch of anime run off this logic?

Maybe the ones that are not good, yeah

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

"Deaths can happen but it can't be anyone the audience might care about" is insane logic. The entire point is that it's supposed to make you sad. 


I'm not sure who you're trying to protect with this. Kids can handle it. 

I'm not trying to "protect" anyone. Different elements are better or worse for different kinds of stories and I don't think "tragic sick girl gets shot by the military" is a good fit for these colorful super-animal adventures. I'm not even saying no important characters can die, I don't have a problem with Shadow's apparent death at the end of SA2, "villain-turned-hero dies ambiguously after saving the world" fits the series better than Maria's death in my eyes.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, said background characters are also related to one of the main characters of the game it was in, and one of the flashback characters who died was also one of the only girls we actually got to know in it. 

"Related" in only a technical sense, given he knew literally none of these people and never showed any reaction to their deaths (if he was even aware of them at all). And Tikal's death is tragic, sure, but it's also about as bloodless as it gets. She sacrifices herself in some vague mystical way and ends up a ghost (which is only kind of like being dead).