Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[Kuzu]

17 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Except, no they did not have to redesign the universe to work around him, nor did they redesign it when they first introduced him. They did the exact same thing with Shadow as they did with Knuckles and ablaze when he was brought to the audience, everything afterwards was nothing more than a MASSIVE narrative fumble that was a series was continuity snarl that affected parts of the cast.

So was SA1.

And people really need to stop ignoring that fact or pretending otherwise, because SA2 is built off the same style as SA1.

And given the marketing and praise that came with SA2 release, I’d love to see where in 1998 Shadow‘s debut started making things divisive.

I don’t see why that’s a major factor.

Except Sonic and Shadow isn’t the only focal character there—there’s four other characters which have a major impact on the game, and just like Chaos, Shadow doesn’t take more of spotlight until literally the last story. Eggman’s still in charge of the Dark story much like was as the villain of SA1 until Chaos takes control.

The point being is that Sonic Adventure 2 is the point when the series really started to drift away from the classic aesthetics.

There's a reason there are debates over which Adventure game was the "better" one.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The point being is that Sonic Adventure 2 is the point when the series really started to drift away from the classic aesthetics.

There's a reason there are debates over which Adventure game was the "better" one.

And much of it has been disingenuous, because again, SA2 builds off of SA1. The mechanics, the style and aesthetics, even narrative and themes of revenge and redemption. 

So to call out SA2 for this is to literally ignore where it descended from, and which game actually started the trend to begin with.

[DabigRG]

57 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I can at least give the Deadly Six the benefit of the doubt in terms of design, because they're extraterrestrials; so on a conceptual level it does make sense that their designs would be alien to the standard Sonic character design. The thing is, none of that is ever used as a way of establishing them. They just show up with little to no-fanfare and are just meant to be accepted as they are just because. And fine, you can argue that they don't NEED to be established, but that would have done a hell of a lot more at actually making them feel important. 

 

That is an interesting point.

They do initially keep most of them shrouded in shadow early on, with Zazz being the only one they just show at first. At the very least, Zavok has this very  minor reveal via Eggman exaggeratedly turning in his general direction before the camera does this slow pan up to his face as Eggman continues.

But then they just sorta drop it after the first turning point, with only Zomom actually being shown walking out of said darkness beforehand; Master Zik just walks up from offscreen and the other two are just sorta...there when its turn to fight Sonic.

[Diogenes]

SA2's style didn't come completely out of nowhere but that doesn't mean it can't be considered the tipping point where things had changed too much from what they had previously been.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And much of it has been disingenuous, because again, SA2 builds off of SA1. The mechanics, the style and aesthetics, even narrative and themes of revenge and redemption. 

So to call out SA2 for this is to literally ignore where it descended from, and which game actually started the trend to begin with.

I agree, but it's also matter of focus; the new elements in Adventure were relatively subdued as I said; up until the last story, the main focus of the story was the four main characters from the classic era (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Eggman) with Chaos being a background element until his story was laid out. 

In Adventure 2, the original focal characters were just going to be Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman based on promotional material. But even then, the main marketing push was focused on Sonic and Shadow.

[Wraith]

I don't want every Sonic game to be about Tails and Eggman nor do I want Sonic to be forced to be stylistically on brand all the time over what choices make sense for what emotions the game is trying to draw out so all I can say is  I can't sympathize.

And the Deadly Six suck. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I can at least give the Deadly Six the benefit of the doubt in terms of design, because they're extraterrestrials; so on a conceptual level it does make sense that their designs would be alien to the standard Sonic character design. The thing is, none of that is ever used as a way of establishing them. They just show up with little to no-fanfare and are just meant to be accepted as they are just because. And fine, you can argue that they don't NEED to be established, but that would have done a hell of a lot more at actually making them feel important. 

 

That is an interesting point.

They do initially keep most of them shrouded in shadow early on, with Zazz being the only one they just show at first. At the very least, Zavok has this very  minor reveal via Eggman exaggeratedly turning in his general direction before the camera does this slow pan up to his face as Eggman continues.

But then they just sorta drop it after the first turning point, with only Zomom actually being shown walking out of said darkness beforehand; Master Zik just walks up from offscreen and the other two are just sorta...there when its turn to fight Sonic

51 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If we've accepted Chaos, the Black Arms, Iblis and its spawn, and Dark Gaia and its minions as part of the series, I don't see why there should be any concern with the D6's designs fitting in.

I mean, people don't really like most of them either, but yeah.

Don't know about the Gaia Spawn, though, who actually do vaguely resemble the Zeti.

49 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Except that wasn’t considered the case until Shadow’s own game onward, which was the point he was largely considered divisive.

Egh, probably because his game was kinda the first Shark Jump, in addition to actually being somewhat bad.

Quote

Prior to that point he wasn’t seen any different. Neither were the aesthetics of SA2, which in spite of its subtle differences in things like lighting are built upon the same style as its predecessor that it was sequelized from—I mean, you can’t really expect one to say Death Chamber is that aesthetically out of place from Lost World without raising an eyebrow, or the likes of White Forest being that out of place compared to Mystic Ruins’ forest section, or the Final Egg from the ARK levels, City Escape from Speed Highway...I can seriously go on.

Never mind how SA1 was actually the first game that drastically shook things up narratively by introducing Chaos and the things he would become later—does one really think “Sonic Character” when one witnesses this:

For the first time? Because remembering my thoughts as a kid playing SA1, my first reaction was “that’s different” when I first witnessed Chaos, far more than when I first saw Shadow. Yet this actually doesn’t get commented on being out of place compared to everything afterwards.

Perhaps it was because that was a somewhat natural jump in detail at the time? And/or lucky enough to be early and thus ingrained better within memory.

Hell, Chaos works and even exits in part because Sega wanted to make a character they couldn't have made before. Plus, he at least starts out as a watery Mobian shape before getting more monstrous with each Emerald past 2.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I can at least give the Deadly Six the benefit of the doubt in terms of design, because they're extraterrestrials; so on a conceptual level it does make sense that their designs would be alien to the standard Sonic character design. The thing is, none of that is ever used as a way of establishing them. They just show up with little to no-fanfare and are just meant to be accepted as they are just because. And fine, you can argue that they don't NEED to be established, but that would have done a hell of a lot more at actually making them feel important. 

 

That is an interesting point.

They do initially keep most of them shrouded in shadow early on, with Zazz being the only one they just show at first. At the very least, Zavok has this very  minor reveal via Eggman exaggeratedly turning in his general direction before the camera does this slow pan up to his face as Eggman continues.

But then they just sorta drop it after the first turning point, with only Zomom actually being shown walking out of said darkness beforehand; Master Zik just walks up from offscreen and the other two are just sorta...there when its turn to fight Sonic

51 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If we've accepted Chaos, the Black Arms, Iblis and its spawn, and Dark Gaia and its minions as part of the series, I don't see why there should be any concern with the D6's designs fitting in.

I mean, people don't really like most of them either, but yeah.

Don't know about the Gaia Spawn, though, who actually do vaguely resemble the Zeti.

49 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Except that wasn’t considered the case until Shadow’s own game onward, which was the point he was largely considered divisive.

Egh, probably because his game was kinda the first Shark Jump, in addition to actually being somewhat bad.

 

48 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

@Diogenes I'd argue that those elements fit in with what Modern Sonic was trying to be at that point in time, as opposed to what it currently is which is why the Deadly Six aren't as accepted. 

A fiar point as well.

Hell, Chaos works and even exits in part because Sega wanted to make a character they couldn't have made before. Plus, he at least starts out as a watery Mobian shape before getting more monstrous with each Emerald past 2.

 

49 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Except that wasn’t considered the case until Shadow’s own game onward, which was the point he was largely considered divisive.

Egh, probably because his game was kinda the first Shark Jump, in addition to actually being somewhat bad.

 

 

47 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Shadow was controversial because after a while, the franchise started to get retooled to befit him. Despite adding new locations and lore, Knuckles and Blaze's inclusion did not alter how the Sonic universe was depicted the same way the Shadow era did. Sure it's a bit of a 'franchise original sin' given SA1 did start making similar alterations and SA2 at least still had SOME ties to original cast but it is evident that to make Shadow's story and role work they had to completely redesign the universe to work around him, not the other way round.

Pretty much.

Knuckles and Blaze actually had their own important yet relatively remote stuff to worry about on the side, but everything around Shadow was even bigger and didn't necessarily fit what Sonic had been beyond the superficials. 

47 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 (though still questionable, like is it ever explained WHY Shadow is Sonic's twin?),

The working theory involves the fact that Gerald obviously researched the Echidnas means he likely studied their civilization and saw the mural of Super Sonic fighting the second Death Egg Robot, hence Shadow resembling the Black Arms version of that.

47 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Again I don't think the D6 are well handled, and I see why Shadow is appealing to many, but here's the thing, in a case of keeping with the initial aesthetics and style of the original games or having some degree of depth, CAN'T WE HAVE BOTH? I just don't really buy into the theories that either because the old games had moderated semblances of darkness they were ALWAYS like this, or that the retools made were 'necessary evils' to develop the series out of being just a silly little kids franchise. Sonic had a style and identity for a long time and people liked the characters and world. Sure people liked the alternative medias as well, but that's what they were, alternative takes.

This is the important thing to hit on often. Balance is always good, otherwise everything will be thrown off.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

SA2's style didn't come completely out of nowhere but that doesn't mean it can't be considered the tipping point where things had changed too much from what they had previously been.

That’s probably because if you compare the images of the levels, it really isn’t. Is Death Chamber really that big a change from Lost Worlds in SA1, or even Sandopolis in S3&K? Are the ARK levels that big a change from something like the Final Egg or the Death Egg? What about City Escape to Speed Highway? What about Pumpkin Hill to Red Mountain? How big of a change are those levels to each other really?

Serious question.

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I agree, but it's also matter of focus; the new elements in Adventure were relatively subdued as I said; up until the last story, the main focus of the story was the four main characters from the classic era (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Eggman) with Chaos being a background element until his story was laid out. 

In Adventure 2, the original focal characters were just going to be Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman based on promotional material. But even then, the main marketing push was focused on Sonic and Shadow.

Last I remember the marketing had more to do with the idea of choosing your side in either saving the world or conquering it. Not that Shadow wasn’t heavily promoted what with a giant billboard poster of him during E3, but we all to often forget (or in other cases disregard, often intentionally) that this was before the Franchise’s Dark Age hit.

[DryLagoon]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Last I remember the marketing had more to do with the idea of choosing your side in either saving the world or conquering it.

This makes sense as this is what the game was pitched as iirc. It's also reflected in the story modes and new Chao types.

Quote

Right off the bat, one of the main objectives the team had when conceiving the game was to take what had made the first successful and strengthen them, focusing on those aspects and ignoring others. One of the main bullet points on this list was the story. Wanting to expand on the narrative powers the first game had employed, the seeds of the sometimes-complicated Sonic Adventure 2 plot were planted. In order to tell this story, it was decided that yet again new characters in the franchise would have to be sketched and then fleshed out. One of the ideas that Iizuka came up with was the idea of having a "Dark Sonic" in the game. Quickly, a variety of concept sketches were produced, each featuring a dark hedgehog.

Quote

--It seems that Shadow the Hedgehog was created by you. Would you please tell us the secret story of Shadow's birth?

Oh man, that was an extremely difficult delivery. (as in birth)

The proposition was to create a character as cool as Sonic, if not more so, after all. (laughs)

I settled on creating a black hedgehog, but it took a considerable amount of time for him to start speaking in my head.

One late night, when I was thinking up lines for the Sonic VS Shadow confrontation scene while driving home from work, after Sonic was like:

"I found you. You impostor!"

Shadow replied for the first time, "Impostor? Hmph, aren't you the fake one here?"

 

[Wraith]

The actual aesthetics of SA2 aren't really that different from the first game. The sticking point of this discussion is always going to be the murder of a child at the heart of Shadow's backstory and whether it's okay for the series to have that sort of content in it or not.

To me, it's pretty obvious that Shadow was a success, so it shouldn't really be a question. The decisions they made crafted one of the most popular characters in the series which is a net benefit for it's health compared to the characters they've introduced with much more restrained parameters that are "respecting the series core" or whatever.

All of this bending over backwards and I still haven't played a 3D game where Sonic can roll down a damn hill.

[DabigRG]

DELETE

 

[Kuzu]

I get that people are mostly against the aesthetic decisions made in the 2000's for downplaying and gradually moving away from what was established by the classic era, but that doesn't mean that simplifying things was necessarily a better solution because now nobody is getting what they want out of the current direction.

9 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Last I remember the marketing had more to do with the idea of choosing your side in either saving the world or conquering it. Not that Shadow wasn’t heavily promoted what with a giant billboard poster of him during E3, but we all to often forget (or in other cases disregard, often intentionally) that this was before the Franchise’s Dark Age hit.

This was the most common commercial when the game came out. Its focused on the Hedgehogs.

And Shadow filled two niches already occupied by two existing characters at the time, and arguably did them better. 

There was always going to be some resentment over that. It's why people say Shadow should have stayed dead, because they were fine with him as long as he didn't encroach on the series. But Sega brought him back and him being a "spotlight stealer" was the most frequent complaint about him.

[DabigRG]

50 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

 

Considering most were one offs never to be seen again, I don't think it matters as much. Half of the time I forget about Iblis and Dark Gaia to be honest. I think if Deadly Six were just in Lost World it'd be less bothering, but seeing them return over other characters can rub some the wrong way. Like remember when Eggman Nega or Emerl were a thing?

Emerl blew up, tbf. Gemerl is a good question, though, albeit one that makes some sense given the timing.

Dr. Nega is funny because he seems to be made of convenience more than anything and was left for dead in a more straightforward fashion last time we saw him in the series proper. However, he is indeed a recurring character, just one they haven't used in forever since Silver and Blaze stopped being major players. I still think Forces could've been a neat way to bring him back.

 

59 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The point being is that Sonic Adventure 2 is the point when the series really started to drift away from the classic aesthetics.

There's a reason there are debates over which Adventure game was the "better" one.

 

53 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And much of it has been disingenuous, because again, SA2 builds off of SA1. The mechanics, the style and aesthetics, even narrative and themes of revenge and redemption. 

So to call out SA2 for this is to literally ignore where it descended from, and which game actually started the trend to begin with.

They are considered a duology for reasons, but 2 did go further in a newer direction than 1 did.

[DryLagoon]

15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

 

I'm not sure if it's just me, but some of your posts aren't displaying properly. (a few were also double in the same post)

[DabigRG]

45 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I agree, but it's also matter of focus; the new elements in Adventure were relatively subdued as I said; up until the last story, the main focus of the story was the four main characters from the classic era (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Eggman) with Chaos being a background element until his story was laid out. 

 

Five, since Amy is Classic too.

30 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 What about Pumpkin Hill to Red Mountain? How big of a change are those levels to each other really?

 

Ironically enough, the former seems more classic than the latter.

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The actual aesthetics of SA2 aren't really that different from the first game. The sticking point of this discussion is always going to be the murder of a child at the heart of Shadow's backstory and whether it's okay for the series to have that sort of content in it or not.

To me, it's pretty obvious that Shadow was a success, so it shouldn't really be a question. The decisions they made crafted one of the most popular characters in the series which is a net benefit for it's health compared to the characters they've introduced with much more restrained parameters that are "respecting the series core" or whatever.

It's because it influenced how things got the way it did and thus landed us where we are.

Shadow himself can be interdepedent of it really: a coinciding part of it, but arguably his own thing.

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

All of this bending over backwards and I still haven't played a 3D game where Sonic can roll down a damn hill.

But you did play both Sonic Adventures.

[Kuzu]

Amy was an extremely minor character in the classic era and only became more prominent after Adventure; and even in both Adventure games, her role is largely secondary to the boys, who were handling the real business. 

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I'm not sure if it's just me, but some of your posts aren't displaying properly. (a few were also double in the same post)

My browser glitched up and seemed to wanna post some things over others. Twice, even.

[DabigRG]

Just now, Kuzu said:

Amy was an extremely minor character in the classic era and only became more prominent after Adventure; and even in both Adventure games, her role is largely secondary to the boys, who were handling the real business. 

She was essentially a joke character admittedly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

 

This was the most common commercial when the game came out. Its focused on the Hedgehogs.

Honestly, I can’t remember that commercial one bit. I actually remember Sonic 06’s commercial a lot more by comparison and I’ve only seen it twice during the game’s release.

Quote

And Shadow filled two niches already occupied by two existing characters at the time, and arguably did them better. 

There was always going to be some resentment over that. It's why people say Shadow should have stayed dead, because they were fine with him as long as he didn't encroach on the series. But Sega brought him back and him being a "spotlight stealer" was the most frequent complaint about him.

Honestly, that just sounds more and more like the petty jealousy and spite it was all but called out as from those same people. Sega brought him back for the same reasons they brought Knuckles and then later the Chaotix back, and while they certain did take things a little further than they should’ve, you’d think rather than have one character beaten down they’d demand more just build the characters they like up to Shadow’s level so they aren’t overshadowed (pun intended).

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Honestly, I can’t remember that commercial one bit. I actually remember Sonic 06’s commercial a lot more by comparison and I’ve only seen it twice during the game’s release.

Honestly, that just sounds more and more like the petty jealousy and spite it was all but called out as from those same people. Sega brought him back for the same reasons they brought Knuckles and then later the Chaotix back, and while they certain did take things a little further than they should’ve, you’d think rather than have one character beaten down they’d demand more just build the characters they like up to Shadow’s level so they aren’t overshadowed (pun intended).

You're right, but it is what it is.  Shadow was a special case though, because as someone quoted above, Shadow was a calculated and deliberate attempt at making a character on Sonic's level as an equal.

Not every character can be built up that way; Knuckles was before, but since Shadow proved to be so much more popular, he was kind of demoted to make way for Shadow.

It is petty, but longtime fans aren't just going to accept old elements being phased out to make way for the new stuff. Its partially why there's this rift between fans of the Adventure era and fans of the current era.

 

And as you said, Sega aren't exactly graceful when it comes to this stuff. I feel like had Shadow got his own separate series, there wouldn't be as much division as opposed to him overtaking every character including Sonic himself.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Not every character can be built up that way; Knuckles was before, but since Shadow proved to be so much more popular, he was kind of demoted to make way for Shadow.

Yes the hell they can. I saw most of the supporting cast get developed far more in the Archie comics than they’ve ever been in the games, so I’m confident enough to go on record on these forums to say a character like Big the Cat can be as developed as Shadow, and I will be more than happy to fight someone over it.

Was gonna reply to the other parts, but I’d be going too far in a tangent, so I’ll just leave it here on this.

[DryLagoon]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It is petty, but longtime fans aren't just going to accept old elements being phased out to make way for the new stuff. Its partially why there's this rift between fans of the Adventure era and fans of the current era.

And as you said, Sega aren't exactly graceful when it comes to this stuff. I feel like had Shadow got his own separate series, there wouldn't be as much division as opposed to him overtaking every character including Sonic himself.

The odd thing is I do like Knuckles too. I enjoyed his story in Adventure, and while his SA2 one was toned down I still enjoyed his moments with Rouge. If anything it's post Colors fans that have less to like about Knuckles, who is mostly mentioned as his meme self and guardian status was mostly lost until Mania Adventures decided to turn that more extreme to be a joke too.

I mean you could say Shadow's game was an attempt at that. Problem is they completely changed the writing staff in a game that really needed to be carried by the writing. Of course it also turned off a lot of older fans too. I think if it was less tedious it would have been more fun to play. Having to go through the whole level because you missed one enemy was frustrating. Now I'm imagining a radar system like with Knuckles.

23 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Honestly, I can’t remember that commercial one bit. I actually remember Sonic 06’s commercial a lot more by comparison and I’ve only seen it twice during the game’s release.

I do remember seeing it a few times. The one I remember seeing most was for Sonic Heroes.

 

[Kuzu]

11 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yes the hell they can. I saw most of the supporting cast get developed far more in the Archie comics than they’ve ever been in the games, so I’m confident enough to go on record on these forums to say a character like Big the Cat can be as developed as Shadow, and I will be more than happy to fight someone over it.

Was gonna reply to the other parts, but I’d be going too far in a tangent, so I’ll just leave it here on this.

Yea, but most of those characters were still pretty secondary to the main characters in that case. Even Shadow had a lot of traits about him downplayed in the comics so that he wouldn't overshadow the Freedom Fighters.

You certainly can develop a lot of characters to be more prominent, but you can't have every character literally be a main character, that's why supporting roles exist.

It's why Shadow was so awkward for so many people; he was designed as another Sonic when there was already a Sonic around. It's also why a lot of traits about him have been downplayed in recent years so that he's lower on the totem pole than Sonic, as opposed to before when he was more prominent.

[DabigRG]

15 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Yes the hell they can. I saw most of the supporting cast get developed far more in the Archie comics than they’ve ever been in the games, so I’m confident enough to go on record on these forums to say a character like Big the Cat can be as developed as Shadow, and I will be more than happy to fight someone over it.

Was gonna reply to the other parts, but I’d be going too far in a tangent, so I’ll just leave it here on this.

Remember Big the Cat's rise to the side of evil when his lazy days came to a tragic end?

14 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I do remember seeing it a few times. The one I remember seeing most was for Sonic Heroes.

 

Oh yeah, classic.

[E-122-Psi]

I think the SA2 era storyline was more a slow burning detachment from the games, in that a lot of the levels in the main game started off reasonably conventional and the characters being largely themselves and still fairly relevant, but then we start to see little tints of integral that maybe haven't been translated to mesh great, and each title started to slowly drift out that one foot still in conventions and start the same formula over and over with less of the substance and Sonic charm. The main storyline became more centred around its newer more 'edgier' additions that were more compatible with the more serious redesign with Sonic and Eggman just doing their usual thing on automation like they were a third wheel. The new villains and plots played less on them.

I don't think it's stubborn and petty to want the series to compliment some sort of recurrent charm and style. I admit it might have been easier to swallow SA2's new additions if they had been a one off like the Storybook ones but they weren't (the implications were that the creators thought Next Gen's 'realistic Sonic' was a one off, but it was really just an exacerbation of the formula they had dug into the ground previously).

I am recurrently criticised for thinking the D6 are GOOD villains, they aren't really. They're just a step in the right direction compared to the generic and completely out-of-place sci fi monsters we've gotten since Sonic Adventure (with each title taking increasingly less measures to give it some sort of home in the Sonic universe). You knew the formula pretty quickly in, Eggman summons or accidentally awakens a god like beast with no previously established lore, he fights for most of the game, only to be usurped by the new blood in the final story which turns into a giant monster for Super Sonic to defeat. One could argue the Yeti are still a variation of that, but at least it gets the basics of them having effective PERSONALITY, basic personality but still. Lost Worlds is probably the first game in a long while where Sonic, Tails and Eggman weren't just doing their usual shit and showing the same two or three character traits. It wasn't brilliantly executed, but I think it shows what to aim for.