Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[DryLagoon]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Man, it would've been such a just thing for them to think of the concept of diary entries "before" Sonic Battle. Jeez.

It really would be a dream come true to get more information on it, be it through in game or side material like a book. I know most people want to move onward, which is why I'd be okay if it was just a book instead too. Including more information on SA2 plus the future ideas Maekawa had, you probably could write a novel about it. Sorry if I'm fanboying too much.

[Wraith]

It's been long enough since the last Shadow focused game that I'd support another one if Maekawa came back and had more ideas.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

The general reasoning is likely that they're either too strong, too monstrous, too complicating, or some combination to realistically keep around for the ongoing series.

One could argue that GUN mellowed out over the years.

Think it's safe to say that the more well-meaning GUN of the present aren't quite the same cynical band of antagonists that they were 50 years ago.

Simple as that.

[E-122-Psi]

5 hours ago, Nina Cortex Jovahexeon said:

One could argue that GUN mellowed out over the years.

Think it's safe to say that the more well-meaning GUN of the present aren't quite the same cynical band of antagonists that they were 50 years ago.

Simple as that.

The thing that still kinda keeps them etchy is the start of SA2 where, in light of Shadow being released, their first course of action is to frame the resident hero to hide what they done, to the extent of DESPERATELY CHARGING A SPEEDING TRUCK AT HIM THROUGH A SMALL DELICATE STREET TO KILL HIM. This truthfully still kept GUN as self serving lunatic territory in the present, with no explanation how they were cleaned of their corruptive spots afterwards.

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Nina Cortex Jovahexeon said:

One could argue that GUN mellowed out over the years.

Think it's safe to say that the more well-meaning GUN of the present aren't quite the same cynical band of antagonists that they were 50 years ago.

Simple as that.

Essentially. 

I was referring to actual endgame villains, though. Which GUN never was outside of the Diablon prototype teaming up with Sonic in Dark endings.

 

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The thing that still kinda keeps them etchy is the start of SA2 where, in light of Shadow being released, their first course of action is to frame the resident hero to hide what they done, to the extent of DESPERATELY CHARGING A SPEEDING TRUCK AT HIM THROUGH A SMALL DELICATE STREET TO KILL HIM. This truthfully still kept GUN as self serving lunatic territory in the present, with no explanation how they were cleaned of their corruptive spots afterwards.

That's where my talk of Tower getting promoted comes in.

The Commander during SA2 almost certainly would've been found incompetent due to Team Dark getting as far as they did and especially one sent the rest of the Project Shadow data to the President.

Plus, the reminder of GUN likely just did a public apology and paid for the damages themselves. There's also that personal photo of the two hedgehogs in Shadow's game, suggesting they were invited there to be commended.

[Shadowlax]

@DabigRGwouldn't call sonic an anti hero personally. Sorry late response, he's like a puckish rogue at best. While he's not afraid to go his own way, his way is generally a pretty decent moral right most times and when its not its because he's fighting some crazy corrupt stuff that has shaped the law, not some lapse in morality in his part. I say that many sonic characters fall under this, though if I had to pick an anti hero character its rouge actually.

@Wraith More context to arc or pre arc stuff to give us details or retcon things or both would be dope. But before I wouldn't plan on it, sega liked to keep any definitive answers to these characters backstories kinda obfuscated. However with the success of the film, maybe it might inspire them to get detail oriented.

[Almar]

Sonic's info in internal JP lore talked about him distrusting authority. This element was best shown in Adventure 2 and Black Knight.

Anyway, G.U.N. just got soft-rebooted out of the series by Unleashed. Outside of little cameos or gag panels there's been zip from them. They're obviously from an era of the franchise ST wants to put in the past outside of obvious bits like Team Dark (and Forces shows that they can use them without G.U.N.). Even in the movie, it was careful to make it clear that the government isn't really Sonic's enemy and that Eggman was abusing his position with no real loyalty to it (the ending even implies that general knew Tom was hiding Sonic but leaves them be out of gratitude).

[Sonic Fan J]

On 3/14/2020 at 7:01 PM, E-122-Psi said:

GUN may have worked as sort of a one off antagonistic force and with at least some sort of better aesthetic or contextual blend about it (heaven knows any Sonic media with authority figures tends to take shots at their competence), but as something so greater scope within the Sonic universe it's jarring. Apparently while playing Green Hill you should know a corrupt photo realistic human military is watching over it and could randomly try to gun you and any innocent soul down to hide their crimes.

Call me crazy, but going by South Island being a glorified hostage situation as orchestrated by Eggman while he both tried to collect the Chaos Emeralds and off Sonic personally I don't really have a problem with the tone between the two. Where I do have a problem is when you say they are just cartoon animals so it doesn't matter without realistic humans. Genocide, war, oppression, forced labor, etc are still themes of the games and things Sonic directly interacts with. Arguing that without the Japanese manuals it's easier to miss it I'm fine with, but saying cartoon animals makes it passable just doesn't sit well with me. I do agree however agree, that if Sonic is supposed to be a character who both fights for nature, vs Eggman, and fights against oppressive authority then he does need a villain for that aspect of his character. I find G.U.N. can very easily fit that theme.

So, veering back onto topic, what aspects of the protagonist do our various villains stand against?

I know Eggman endangers nature and Sonic protects it.
G.U.N. could have been a force that contrasted Sonic's protection of freedom.
Lyric shows what happens when nature is corrupted by man and needs saved from itself (IMO)
Infinite demonstrates the importance of image, and constantly tries to attack Sonic's own potentially both to break him and those who rely on him.
The D6 for all of my problems with them, are characters of petty spite who should pull Sonic's supposed short temper to the fore.

But these are just my thoughts, even as it allows me to ask a different question. If we don't look at the antagonists as fitting an overall series theme (not that Sonic has one), then what about looking at how they challenge or titular protagonist? My opinions are already above, but I'm curious what ideas everyone else has.

[E-122-Psi]

It's not that Sonic can't have dark toned antagonists but more GUN is case that wasn't remotely designed and customised to work within the Sonic series. They didn't even bother to make them LOOK like they're part of the same world as Sonic.

Like the echidnas represent a dark part of Sonic storytelling, but they fit into the fantasy lore and design of the series perfectly. GUN could have been exported from any dark sci thriller or anime.

[Sonic Fan J]

And what exactly is wrong with that? The whole Chaos Emerald lore was fairly nicely capped off in Sonic Adventure and Sonic was due for a change in direction to keep things fresh. I find the failure to follow up on it and define a new tone going forward hurt things more than G.U.N. ever did. And that's another one of those things that confuses me with anime being brought up, people constantly say the anime influence is bad, but then constantly demand big dramatic anime battles between certain characters on a regular basis. When it comes to just having the characters all punch each other in the face all of the series themes are chucked right out the window for Rule of Cool. G.U.N. meanwhile fits into the whole stand against oppressive authority aspect of Sonic's character slotting them in fairly nicely. that they are also human like the series' main antagonist also keeps the theme of man vs nature intact. Yet somehow being human and military makes them too tonally dissonant yet Eggman in a military uniform is still fluff regardless of the context of his actions or what a military uniform is implying.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too far detached or too into Japanese style storytelling to be bothered by it. I've been playing Sonic games since I was six back in '91 and when Adventure 2 came out it was everything I could have wanted bar some gameplay design decisions and Amy not being playable in the campaign. Too me the game and story was brilliant and it is one of the few things I know of that can bring me a profound sense of nostalgia. So yeah, I'm biased, but even with my biases I just can't see G.U.N. as so tonally detached from the franchise. To me it felt natural when I first played it and still does today. In fact, I'm one of those people who G.U.N.s removal as I feel it made Sonic's world more shallow.

[Kuzu]

We're arguing over preference at this point; Some people simply prefer Sonic's setting to be functionally consistent within itself and feel moving beyond that is distancing itself from it's own identity (whatever that is to certain people) 

While others think the series should evolve and adapt new themes and aesthetics to keep up with the times.

Its literally a progressive versus conservative debate.

[Sonic Fan J]

An interesting analysis, but what does it mean when some people have a viewpoint of Sonic that is not even represented in the franchise itself. For example, the first time I heard Sonic described as being a bright and colorful world where the clouds and hills smiled and waved at the cheerful little guy as he ran on by absolutely floored me. It wasn't until years later when I started finally paying attention to Mario that I saw the world being attributed to Sonic and realized that almost anything that Sonic was compared to or mentioned in the same sentence with was being used to define him instead of his own content. When Sonic team started that we ended up with Chibi Sonic the Moe Mime who is far more tonally dissonant to me than G.U.N. ever was. He was created to be who Sonic was based on external perception instead of what was actually originally created internally. In that regard it makes my distaste for most things after Unleashed an interesting self study and franchise study as at what point did I draw the line that what was made internally no longer belonged.

In truth that is probably a problem a lot of us have; when did we draw the line? If we can answer that question individually we might start to find why some like the D6 and others don't. We might also realize that some of us draw lines on both sides of where the franchise can and should go, and the narrower we let the space between get the more we make it impossible for the franchise to please us. Still, when people draw their lines through humans simply for being human I start to find it difficult to find common ground. But that is obviously because I'm one of those people who felt like humans always belonged beside anthros in Sonic's world.
 

[Kuzu]

When the series dove headfirst into the Animesque direction from before, the critical reception of the games gradually got worse as many felt the series was losing its identity and focus, but it still carved out a small niche for itself among some fans.

But then Sonic 06 happened and that was enough to convince Sega that it was time to change the direction of the series; which meant all of that Anime and plot stuff had to go because under Sega logic "it didn't work".

And given the critical reception of Colors and Generations, it just reinforced to Sega that the simpler direction was the "correct" decision, no matter how many old fans of the Anime direction complained.

 

But since that direction seemingly failed by the time Forces rolled around, its honestly hard to say where the series goes. My gut tells me it's going to focus on Mania since that was the most successful property the series produced in recent years. What that means for Modern Sonic remains to be seen.

[Sonic Fan J]

As long as it doesn't mean more of their "Classic" Sonic being forced in I'm at least curious to see what they do next, especially with all of the Adventure related shenanigans that's been floating around their social media. i do wonder as well though what approach they'll bring to the classic side of things as well considering the implementation of pseudo side villains in the HBH.

[Kuzu]

I'm fairly certain we're getting more classic Sonic stuff by virtue of Mania.

To be honest, while I would be completely on board with an Adventure remake, I think I'd prefer them to actually tackle the concept of applying classic Sonic gameplay in a 3D space. The series has never so much as tried that and mostly just doubled down on just making things as fast as possible.

As for the writing; I don't need it to be as overly convoluted as it was before, but the series can stand to have a little more weight to it and for it to actually be executed well. Something along the lines of Unleashed is serviceable enough tbh.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

The only times Sonic's friends have turned on him and physically attacked him are when they've been tricked (Knuckles), or mind-controlled (Tails).

The only exception to this was Amy in Heroes, and that was purely to get into his (figurative) pants.

I'd like to see a scenario where Tails or anyone else goes nuts on him because one his actions put the world in danger, and they lose faith in him.

[Sonario]

One short and sweet way to make G.U.N. and humans work with the animal cast would be just having normal civilian animals and animals working for G.U.N. too. I mean we already had the full-animal resistance in Forces, why not have teams of humans and animals working for G.U.N? Heck, you could even give G.U.N wispons and stuff instead of conventional assault rifles and pistols too, making them more fantastical, giving them a better aesthetic for the series' current direction. You don't necessarily need realistic settings or no animals other than Sonic and co to have a serious toned story.

But unfortunately, Sonic Team and the other yahoos are too scatterbrained and prefer to stick with their plot-hole filled inconsistend Two Worlds bologna because 06 bad. I just want a consistent world again.

[Sonic Fan J]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm fairly certain we're getting more classic Sonic stuff by virtue of Mania.

To be honest, while I would be completely on board with an Adventure remake, I think I'd prefer them to actually tackle the concept of applying classic Sonic gameplay in a 3D space. The series has never so much as tried that and mostly just doubled down on just making things as fast as possible.

As for the writing; I don't need it to be as overly convoluted as it was before, but the series can stand to have a little more weight to it and for it to actually be executed well. Something along the lines of Unleashed is serviceable enough tbh.

The funny thing is how many people mistake weight for edge and instantly disregard it. I don't see what's wrong with a little weight myself and actually giving Sonia reason to put his determined face on. But for the sake of the thread what would it take for a villain to add weight back to the story? I know Eggman can pull it off if you just give him a series of small victories throughout the game that feel like they are escalating in severity. But asides from Eggman, who else can do that on their own?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's not that Sonic can't have dark toned antagonists but more GUN is case that wasn't remotely designed and customised to work within the Sonic series. They didn't even bother to make them LOOK like they're part of the same world as Sonic.

Like the echidnas represent a dark part of Sonic storytelling, but they fit into the fantasy lore and design of the series perfectly. GUN could have been exported from any dark sci thriller or anime.

And the D6 and the Wisps could have been exported from Pokémon or Mario.

Chaos and Dark Gaia could have been exported from Godzilla or Harry Potter.

Dude, I can understand not looking like they’re part of the same world as Sonic—in which the simple solution is to simply make them look like they’re part of the same world, like they did the humans in Unleashed. But countless things in this franchise have been exported or influenced from many things—the Death Egg is a blatant parody of the Death Star from Star Wars while Super Sonic takes direct inspiration from Super Saiyans of Dragon Ball Z.
 

GUN’s presence isn’t doing anything different than what this franchise was already doing prior to their debut. You can make them look like Sonic characters, but they’re still going to have that dark sci-fi influence they gives them their own unique identity in the franchise. And there’s nothing wrong with that than the other elements that have come before or after them.

[Almar]

Do I have to point that the Classic Games were intended to happen on Earth? As in, Earth where Britain and Christmas are things on it? Not even a Dragonball Earth that was only Earth in name only. 

Anyway, looking more closely at Adventure 2 convinces me G.U.N.'s "realism" is exaggerated. They use killer robots who look no more inappropriate than Eggman's and Sonic runs from a giant killer truck. I've seen such talk against G.U.N. on 4chan too, and I think it roots in how the Western brand did way too much damage to how Western fans see both Sonic and his world.

 

[DabigRG]

On 3/15/2020 at 12:49 PM, Shadowlax said:

@DabigRGwouldn't call sonic an anti hero personally. Sorry late response, he's like a puckish rogue at best. While he's not afraid to go his own way, his way is generally a pretty decent moral right most times and when its not its because he's fighting some crazy corrupt stuff that has shaped the law, not some lapse in morality in his part. I say that many sonic characters fall under this, though if I had to pick an anti hero character its rouge actually.

That's an alright way of putting it.

On 3/15/2020 at 12:49 PM, Shadowlax said:

@Wraith More context to arc or pre arc stuff to give us details or retcon things or both would be dope. But before I wouldn't plan on it, sega liked to keep any definitive answers to these characters backstories kinda obfuscated. However with the success of the film, maybe it might inspire them to get detail oriented.

How so?

On 3/15/2020 at 1:06 PM, Almar said:

Sonic's info in internal JP lore talked about him distrusting authority. This element was best shown in Adventure 2 and Black Knight.

 

Huh. That's some pretty good insight there.

11 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 I do agree however agree, that if Sonic is supposed to be a character who both fights for nature, vs Eggman, and fights against oppressive authority then he does need a villain for that aspect of his character. I find G.U.N. can very easily fit that theme.

Interesting.

11 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

So, veering back onto topic, what aspects of the protagonist do our various villains stand against?

I know Eggman endangers nature and Sonic protects it.
G.U.N. could have been a force that contrasted Sonic's protection of freedom.
Lyric shows what happens when nature is corrupted by man and needs saved from itself (IMO)
Infinite demonstrates the importance of image, and constantly tries to attack Sonic's own potentially both to break him and those who rely on him.
The D6 for all of my problems with them, are characters of petty spite who should pull Sonic's supposed short temper to the fore.

But these are just my thoughts, even as it allows me to ask a different question. If we don't look at the antagonists as fitting an overall series theme (not that Sonic has one), then what about looking at how they challenge or titular protagonist? My opinions are already above, but I'm curious what ideas everyone else has.

 Good train of thought. After all, good/strong villains should indeed appeal to the hero[e]'s traits as they challenge and antagonize them.

Eggman also shares a greater ego and tendency to showoff personality-wise.

GUN is arguably a case of the law sometimes going to greater extremes to protect the world than Sonic, who just happens do it with his own abilities with some fun mixed in.

Not sure what to comment on Lyric, but neat parallel anyway. From what I recall, Sonic just happened to pull a Scepter of Darkness on him and Lyric held a grudge ever since. Also because Snakes eat Hedgehogs.

Infinite is actually pretty spot on, though. 

The Zeti(or really just Zavok and maybe Zor) did aim to bleed Sonic on a personal level, but if we're talking generally outside of Lost World with Tails' kidnapping, they kinda need something more. Cause as I and a few others have said before, it feels like most of them could probably do better fighting other characters.

What was up with that temper thing, btw?

6 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

And what exactly is wrong with that? The whole Chaos Emerald lore was fairly nicely capped off in Sonic Adventure and Sonic was due for a change in direction to keep things fresh. I find the failure to follow up on it and define a new tone going forward hurt things more than G.U.N. ever did. And that's another one of those things that confuses me with anime being brought up, people constantly say the anime influence is bad, but then constantly demand big dramatic anime battles between certain characters on a regular basis. When it comes to just having the characters all punch each other in the face all of the series themes are chucked right out the window for Rule of Cool. G.U.N. meanwhile fits into the whole stand against oppressive authority aspect of Sonic's character slotting them in fairly nicely. that they are also human like the series' main antagonist also keeps the theme of man vs nature intact. Yet somehow being human and military makes them too tonally dissonant yet Eggman in a military uniform is still fluff regardless of the context of his actions or what a military uniform is implying.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too far detached or too into Japanese style storytelling to be bothered by it. I've been playing Sonic games since I was six back in '91 and when Adventure 2 came out it was everything I could have wanted bar some gameplay design decisions and Amy not being playable in the campaign. Too me the game and story was brilliant and it is one of the few things I know of that can bring me a profound sense of nostalgia. So yeah, I'm biased, but even with my biases I just can't see G.U.N. as so tonally detached from the franchise. To me it felt natural when I first played it and still does today. In fact, I'm one of those people who G.U.N.s removal as I feel it made Sonic's world more shallow.

I think the idea is that they are portrayed far more realistically and with grit than Eggman generally is.

6 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Its literally a progressive versus conservative debate.

Huh. Wonder how that could work in-universe.

[Almar]

All in all, G.U.N. actually isn't at odds with how Naka and Co. envisioned the series (they made Sonic to be on Earth and Earth already has UN Peacekeepers or NATO). They're only "clashing" since they're aren't stylized enough ala how Uekawa draws humans like Billy Hatcher or the ones in Puyo Pop.

[DryLagoon]

6 hours ago, Sonario said:

One short and sweet way to make G.U.N. and humans work with the animal cast would be just having normal civilian animals and animals working for G.U.N. too. I mean we already had the full-animal resistance in Forces, why not have teams of humans and animals working for G.U.N? Heck, you could even give G.U.N wispons and stuff instead of conventional assault rifles and pistols too, making them more fantastical, giving them a better aesthetic for the series' current direction. You don't necessarily need realistic settings or no animals other than Sonic and co to have a serious toned story.

I mean Rouge was working for the President in SA2, and later on Shadow joins G.U.N.

Comics wise Whisper feels similar to this as she's a sniper and could easily fit in such a group.

Infinite was also part of an animal based squad too.

I think part of the difference is if it's a human NPC fans care less, but if it's an animal one then you start getting complaints of "too many characters/friends!". Adventure 1 had a dozen or so human NPCs, but because they were in the background with no names, they aren't really remembered at all. A colorful animal stands out way more in comparison. If they did add more animals I would want some of them to look cooler or cuter. The ones in Forces felt like Sega went "okay make sure none of them look as appealing as our main characters". I don't mean just the avatar, but the background characters as well.

[DabigRG]

22 minutes ago, DryLagoon said:

I think part of the difference is if it's a human NPC fans care less, but if it's an animal one then you start getting complaints of "too many characters/friends!". Adventure 1 had a dozen or so human NPCs, but because they were in the background with no names, they aren't really remembered at all. A colorful animal stands out way more in comparison. If they did add more animals I would want some of them to look cooler or cuter. The ones in Forces felt like Sega went "okay make sure none of them look as appealing as our main characters". I don't mean just the avatar, but the background characters as well.

Kinda like Boom.

Also because they were just Avatar templates. Possibly including Infinite.

That said, I thought the Birds looked cool. And there's only so many ways you can not have the Dogs look dopey.

[Wraith]

11 hours ago, Sonario said:

One short and sweet way to make G.U.N. and humans work with the animal cast would be just having normal civilian animals and animals working for G.U.N. too. I mean we already had the full-animal resistance in Forces, why not have teams of humans and animals working for G.U.N? Heck, you could even give G.U.N wispons and stuff instead of conventional assault rifles and pistols too, making them more fantastical, giving them a better aesthetic for the series' current direction. You don't necessarily need realistic settings or no animals other than Sonic and co to have a serious toned story.

That would just make them look goofy. They're supposed to be an exaggerated take on the military, not the Freedom Fighters.