Anyone else bored of Eggman being the villain? Also the series should go back to basics!

[StaticMania]

9 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I know, this is all a bit further than "how about some cool boss cutscenes?" Yeah, it might help hype up some boss fights, but wouldn't solve the real issue.

The real issue is how he's used narratively.

Which apart from all that stuff, is that he can't be seen as effective when he actually does anything.

Cool boss introduction cutscenes isn't solving his threat level story-wise, I'm just referring to his actual involvement.

In the plot, Eggman's rarely allowed to do anything once his plan is set in motion. So he just doesn't come off as competent as he should.

It's all flash and no substance most of the time, which is totally what I'm suggesting, but that's besides the point, eh.

[Wittymations]

11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

In the plot, Eggman's rarely allowed to do anything once his plan is set in motion. So he just doesn't come off as competent as he should.

Which goes back to the whole, cutscene plays, some talking, a few "i'll win" "nuh uh" "yeah huh." Which is what sonic story as a whole devolved to. The plots don't even move. This particular problem isn't limited to Eggman, a lot of the story just seems to be chatting about what's going on than doing anything.

For clarification, I do think intro cutscenes for bosses would be pretty dope on their own.

12 minutes ago, MainJP said:

He did create the Final Egg Blaster which he used to destroy multiple stars in Battle. That's way more impressive than busting a moon or even a planet.

Oh, absolutely.

But that's in a very niche spinoff that holds pretty much no relevance anymore. Like, imagine if that took place in Unleashed instead? Right now, most people bar the nerdier fans ever even heard of Battle, much less played it, and even less so got to that scene.

So, to most, it didn't even happen.

[Splash the Otter]

I agree with using Eggman less, because I'm also tired of seeing him all the time. TBH the series needs a bigger/more diverse rogues gallery. Right now it's just the Egg Empire, a character nobody likes and a bunch of oneshots.

On the other hand, I don't agree with going back to the basics. The extended cast needs development too! What you're suggesting would in a best case scenario leave us with four developed characters and a bunch of underdeveloped ones.

[Wraith]

17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

Chalk it up as part of yet another accusation of the series playing it safe, but it does sorta feel like they've been banking on the Big Round Guy a little too much some times. He's definitely great and all, but one can't help but notice how even if it's not too far removed from how things were previously anyway, some of the recent games' attempts to go other places and have other things as a major focus is almost always shelled by having Eggman superiorly emphasized. This is particularly obvious since they've started bringing alternative, more sentient villains that get a chunk of play before going, "Oh, you thought this new guy was gonna be the Big Bad? Sic--Robotnik is the Giant Egg! See, his place is undeniably at the top of the food chain, so you got nothing to worry about." 

 

Yeah this is where I'm at. There's this weord insecurity surrounding him where He's always the final boss even if it doesn't really make sense for that to be the case. Sonic Lost World obviously had it's mind set on other bad guy's with Eggman in a different role but everything gets turned on on it's head in a really clunky way toward the end.

But sticking by obligatory staples like green hills and eggman as the final boss doesn't make the games or the stories any better. That's obvious to most people now, but common consensus used to be that shortchanging eggman was one of the series great sins when it was a microscopic thing compared to the fundamental and structural problems the series still faces.

If the artists aren't interested in a story about Eggman it's fine to leave him in the passengers seat or drop him on the curb altogether. 

[Indigo Rush]

I sorta get what the OP is saying, although the topic title is worded strangely.

See, I'm not bored of Eggman being the villain, quite the opposite. I'm bored of Eggman not being villainous enough. He keeps his title of the main baddie, but you only get to bum-rush him twice in all of Sonic Forces, despite his presence as the conqueror of the world. What set Eggman apart from a majority of gaming villains was that he wasn't just the final boss, but he was just about every boss, and despite having a militia of robots at his disposal he still found it necessary to trade blows with Sonic and company in-person. 

The other side of the coin is that when Eggman is tossed aside in favor of another monster of the week, they've never done much with him. By my marks, the best instance of Eggman being usurped is in Sonic Adventure 2, and that's only because he actively plays a vital part in getting things under control. The worst by far is Sonic Unleashed, with Eggman getting a last-second demotion with little fanfare. 

Now, if we want the series to focus on going back to the basics, Eggman needs to play a part, and he needs to be the main baddie. He doesn't have to be the only antagonist, but the set-up would necessitate the traditional villain playing his traditional role of Sonic's arch nemesis. Sonic Mania's Hard-boiled Heavies provide a nice alteration of the formula with some semi-rogue badniks causing trouble for both parties without totally upending Eggman's role, for instance. I think something akin to that would probably work best.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

23 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Eggman is a fabulous hunk of chubby butter and I will not have the patriarchy speaking ill of our lord and savior.

Personally, I've found Eggman the most interesting when he isn't the main villain, surprisingly. Eggman somehow was at his most boring he's ever been when he was at the head in Forces and Eggman was incredibly interesting all throughout Lost World until that ending where he was forced into that spot for the final boss.

I don't think that's a particularly fair point though. The comparison isn't very good because of the fact that Eggman was far more botched in Forces, than he was in Lost World. In Lost World, despite all of the many, many problems with the story and writing, Eggman was the one consistently written strongly, and given good moments that showcased his goofy personality, and his more serious and deadly side.

Forces on the other hand, even in the era where all characters have been written badly at one point or another is the first real time Eggman himself got hit with it. They removed all of Eggman's goofy and bombastic egotistical personality, leaving him to just be your generic evil villain who wants to bring destruction anywhere he goes. Comparing Eggmanland in Unleashed to any location in Forces just goes to show that point. 

Eggmanland is the perfect representation of Eggman's personality in full-force, statues of him lining up the place, dangers around every corner, a massive technicolour lightshow all to scream out to the world itself that he's large and in charge. Merchandise for his "adoring fans" being sold at the front entrance, and all of it housing his robots and more importantly, a Gaia Temple to impede Sonic's progress and stop him from saving the planet. That's what happens when Eggman is in charge. When he gets a chance to showcase his brilliance to the world, and wins. 

None of that flair, ego, personality, or anything is shown when he takes over the world in Forces. Oh wow, Green Hill is dusty. Oh woo, there's a few Egg Carriers in Chemical Plant, and it's snowy now, oh no, the Death Egg is still just filled with machinery. 

Like, it's not so much for making every level a Eggmanland clone, obviously you want diversity, but at the very least, you'd think he would have the Egg logo plastered over the place, or recruitment posters to tell people to fall in line, or hell, showing the world below that Sonic is captured, imprisoned, and helpless to do anything to save them. Even just statues, or banners of Eggman in the levels would make more sense. Even the one level that's implied to be his base, and completely manmade by him ends up just being a generic casino instead of a total Eggman flair like Unleashed had. 

So with that said, I disagree with that idea that Eggman can't be interesting as a villain in this case, especially in the scenario where he gets to win. The problem is that when that scenario finally happened, he was completely written out of character to justify him being a massive threat, because apparently Eggman can't win, and can't still be a large ham at the same time.  

[Dr. Detective]

7 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I don't think that's a particularly fair point though.

I was just providing an example. I said that ultimately it didn't matter so long as it was written well.

7 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I disagree with that idea that Eggman can't be interesting as a villain, especially in the scenario where he gets to win. 

I never said this. Unless you're talking about the guy who made the first post.

I've said repeatedly that Eggman finally winning and taking over the world is the most awesome premise ever and its a crying shame it was wasted on Forces.

The basis of my post wasn't in support of the intial post of the thread. I was just talking about which scenarios I typically found Eggman the most interesting.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I've said repeatedly tgat Eggman finally winning and taking over the world is the most awesome premise ever and its a crying shame it was wasted on Forces.

It was more a general answer to the question in general. Eggman is fine as a villain, but he has to be written in character for it to work, especially in the scenario you presented. Same thing for Lost World, he wasn't effective there at all because he just double-crosses Sonic at the last possible minute to preempt the Deadly Six, who were meant to be the villains here. I honestly would've preferred a Deadly 6 Team-Up battle as the final boss instead of a Colours rehash to justify Eggman as the villain.

[Dr. Detective]

Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It was more a general answer to the question in general. Eggman is fine as a villain, but he has to be written in character for it to work, especially in the scenario you presented. Same thing for Lost World, he wasn't effective there at all because he just double-crosses Sonic at the last possible minute to preempt the Deadly Six, who were meant to be the villains here. I honestly would've preferred a Deadly 6 Team-Up battle as the final boss instead of a Colours rehash to justify Eggman as the villain.

Yeah. I agree with all of this.

[DabigRG]

12 hours ago, WittyUsername said:

Yes and no. It's a lot deeper than this.

You can create a cool robot with cool animation and all that and some will be more memorable than others -- that's just the nature of level bosses.

This is a problem that existed for a while. While I won't be talking about bosses, I want to talk about the centerpiece of each of Eggman's threatening creations or plan for the game. Not the god-monsters he recruited, unless he literally converted them for his needs (like Time Eater.) In such, I won't talk about Chaos but will the Egg Carrier -- Eggman didn't create Chaos.

Honestly, the weight of Eggman's threat seems more like we're told but never shown. This is a problem I feel that's been in this series from, at least, the second title. But more specifically the third.

They undersell everything he does on his own.

Death Egg? What it do? Worse we seen, it activated a volcano.

Egg Carrier? What it do? Dunno. It had a large laser cannon, but the best we seen, it clipped the Tornado. Clipped it.

Eclipse  Cannon? HOLY CRAP IT DESTROYED THE MOON, THAT'S BADASS, HOLY MOTHER F- Wait, that's his grandfather's.

Egg Fleet? They're ships. There's a lot of them. And they're ships. And there's a lot of them. And they're Eggman's. And there's a lot of them. And that's it.

I honestly forgot what was supposed to be even happening in 06. Or Unleashed. I don't think he built any specific huge thing there. Was just chasing gods in both. For whatever reason.

Mind control with Hyper-Go-On? We saw what it could do. Last like a minute or two on Tails with two full tanks of the stuff, and had to be constantly fed into his victim. Besides Sonic feeling the need to save the poor little aliens, he didn't even really have to get involved with that plan... If Eggman couldn't keep Tails under his control for more than a couple of minutes, how was he planning to do anything with a whole planet? Sonic didn't have to show up. I mean, it'd suck for the Wisps, but Earth would have been just fine.

Time Eater?  This is different. You know, this is actually one of the times I feel like he pulled everything off just fine. Captured everyone, turned all of Sonic's friends to stone (bar Shadow and Silver) and even bitched-slapped Sonic out of the sky and knocked him out. He then sends everyone to a timeless zone. That worked out pretty nicely. But it's not framed that way, rather it's framed as "you always lose" with no pushback. Even a simple line like, "Sonic, you've already lost. How do you think you all got here?" would have helped.

Didn't create the Zeti, but the 'machine' used to absorb the life force of Earth seems to be the thing here. Problem is they had to make Tails do something 'even Eggman couldn't do' and somehow reprogram a piece of hardware (imagine reprogramming a drill to go both ways when it was designed to only go one way. You'd have to change the hardware to allow it) that he had no hand in developing to just throw more mud at their main antagonist. You could have had Eggman deal with the software side and let Tails go fiddle with the hardware side.

There's just the need from SEGA to constantly lower his villain credit. And they feel it wouldn't be believable enough for Eggman to take over on his own when they refuse to let him.

I know, this is all a bit further than "how about some cool boss cutscenes?" Yeah, it might help hype up some boss fights, but wouldn't solve the real issue.

That's kind of a fair point.

Oh and Unleashed had him split the planet apart using Super Sonic's energy and harness Dark Gaia's energy(somehow) to finally build Eggmanland.

[StaticMania]

Eggman's too much of a coward right now to ever face Sonic directly anymore if it isn't in his ULTIMATE machine.

Ever notice how he rarely does that anymore?

He only ever does it in the 2D games.

What's the deal with airline food with that?

[Kuzu]

I think the biggest irony is that just 10 years ago, people were tired of Eggman not being the main villain, and now people have flip flopped on that he shouldn't be the main villain.

I don't think being the main villain or not is really the issue, that's just surface level shit. My problem is that Eggman being the villain has no meaning anymore; he's the villain because that's what he's expected to be, but has no real driving conflict beyond that he occasionally gets in Sonic's way sometimes and makes funny quips.

And like, that's fine. I love bombastic and hammy Eggman, but I also like having some type of conflict if I'm supposed to care about his actions and how they effect everyone.

If he's just another Bowser (shows up, gets his obligatory boss fights, and that's it) then fine. But if they're going to make a big deal out of him being the villain (something Lost World and Forces did) then actually have it mean something. Merely being the final boss doesn't do him any favors from a narrative point of view, and has actively hurt the newer villains they've tried to push because they're swept aside for Eggman.

If they're intent on just making him Bowser, then stop trying to shoehorn other villains if you never had any intention of actually making them the center of the conflict just to make Eggman the central figure again.

 

 

 

And no, they already have cut the cast and it didn't solve anything. Please kill this myth that only a handful of characters need to appear to be better.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

It was more a general answer to the question in general. Eggman is fine as a villain, but he has to be written in character for it to work, especially in the scenario you presented. Same thing for Lost World, he wasn't effective there at all because he just double-crosses Sonic at the last possible minute to preempt the Deadly Six, who were meant to be the villains here. I honestly would've preferred a Deadly 6 Team-Up battle as the final boss instead of a Colours rehash to justify Eggman as the villain.

Yeah, pretty much.

As cool as the Eggstractor kinda is, it's such a blatant waste thrown into a last minute villain override. It would've made more sense to have the Zeti better capitalize on what tension they did establish over the majority of the game and have the game climax more appropriately.

Not to mention they're on the damn cover and got quite a bit of advertisement exposure, something I can't say I remember any other villain getting.

[Dr. Mechano]

I'm actually totally fine with Eggman not being the villain...

...if he's a fully playable character actively fighting against the new villain and gets to shine as a badass villainous anti-hero, a la Bowser in some of the Mario RPGs.

It could totally work in a way that doesn't depart too much from standard Sonic gameplay too; Look at the way Ray and Mighty got all new movesets in Mania that still stuck true to the base Sonic formula. Just give ol' Ivo a suit of power armor rather than a big bulky mech, throw in a unique move or two, and bam! He's ready for some speedy 2D and/or 3D platforming action that still feels like standard Sonic gameplay.

My problem with Eggman in Heroes/Shadow/2K6/etc. wasn't that he wasn't the main villain; It's that he was sidelined almost entirely and barely got to do anything cool. Games like Sonic Adventure 2 or Advance 3 had him sidelined as the main antagonist, but also made him playable to varying degrees, and I l liked those scenarios a lot more. Rivals 2 gets an honorable mention of sorts; While Metal Sonic is playable rather than Eggman himself, pretty much all of Metal's cutscene dialogue is Eggman speaking through him, and it's more his story as he works with Shadow to stop Eggman Nega through Metal Sonic, which makes the game kind of a "half playable appearance" in a sense.

Either way, more stuff like that. Less stuff like locking him in a room where he does nothing for the entire game.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I'm actually totally fine with Eggman not being the villain...

...if he's a fully playable character actively fighting against the new villain and gets to shine as a badass villainous anti-hero, a la Bowser in some of the Mario RPGs.

It could totally work in a way that doesn't depart too much from standard Sonic gameplay too; Look at the way Ray and Mighty got all new movesets in Mania that still stuck true to the base Sonic formula. Just give ol' Ivo a suit of power armor rather than a big bulky mech, throw in a unique move or two, and bam! He's ready for some speedy 2D and/or 3D platforming action that still feels like standard Sonic gameplay.

My problem with Eggman in Heroes/Shadow/2K6/etc. wasn't that he wasn't the main villain; It's that he was sidelined almost entirely and barely got to do anything cool. Games like Sonic Adventure 2 or Advance 3 had him sidelined as the main antagonist, but also made him playable to varying degrees, and I l liked those scenarios a lot more. Rivals 2 gets an honorable mention of sorts; While Metal Sonic is playable rather than Eggman himself, pretty much all of Metal's cutscene dialogue is Eggman speaking through him, and it's more his story as he works with Shadow to stop Eggman Nega through Metal Sonic, which makes the game kind of a "half playable appearance" in a sense.

Either way, more stuff like that. Less stuff like locking him in a room where he does nothing for the entire game.

Eggman with boxing gloves is something I didn't know I needed.

[Badnik Zero]

I want to see the monster of the week trope reversed on Eggman in a big way.

Eggman, mad scientist, is constantly one-upped by random ass mythological creatures. I want to see him take a mad scientist’s approach to these monsters. A mythical creature is just a big Flicky to science. This is the guy who turned little squirrels into batteries for his robots. I want to see him put a harness on Chaos and ride that sucker into a tornado. That’s a final boss.

Why can’t that be the final act of just one game?

[Diogenes]

That's what the Time Eater was.

It, uh.

Wasn't good.

[Wraith]

It's also just unnecessary to one up a trope that's been dead since 2008

[Dr. Mechano]

How about a monster that actually likes Eggman? Monster doesn't betray Eggman, Eggman doesn't betray the monster.

They just genuinely form a villainous friendship and actually hit it off well with each other. It could be some good character development for Eggman while also bringing in a fresh new villainous face.

Infinite doesn't really fit this, since Eggman does the whole "You have failed me" thing to him in the end. 

[Badnik Zero]

35 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's what the Time Eater was.

From a story perspective though. 

Generations didn’t really have a story.

[Diogenes]

It did. It was just small and bad.

[ComeAsYouAre]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How about a monster that actually likes Eggman? Monster doesn't betray Eggman, Eggman doesn't betray the monster.

They just genuinely form a villainous friendship and actually hit it off well with each other. It could be some good character development for Eggman while also bringing in a fresh new villainous face.

Infinite doesn't really fit this, since Eggman does the whole "You have failed me" thing to him in the end. 

I honestly don't understand that part, it feels so out of character for Eggman , that felt more like SATam  Robotnik Than Game eggman

 

[Badnik Zero]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How about a monster that actually likes Eggman? Monster doesn't betray Eggman, Eggman doesn't betray the monster.

They just genuinely form a villainous friendship and actually hit it off well with each other. It could be some good character development for Eggman while also bringing in a fresh new villainous face.

The closest we have had to this concept might be Shadow, which is bizzare.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Badnik Zero said:

The closest we have had to this concept might be Shadow, which is bizzare.

He was still stringing Eggman along in SA2 so he could destroy the world though.

We did see a genuine mutually-respectful partnership between them in Sonic Rivals 2, although both of them were acting in a heroic role in that game. Like I said, despite it being Shadow's and Metal Sonic's episode, Eggman was really more of a character in that story and it felt more like a partnership between Shadow and Eggman with Metal Sonic acting as Eggman's proxy. The cutscenes were mostly Shadow and Eggman talking with each other and working together, etc.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

I want to see the monster of the week trope reversed on Eggman in a big way.

Eggman, mad scientist, is constantly one-upped by random ass mythological creatures. I want to see him take a mad scientist’s approach to these monsters. A mythical creature is just a big Flicky to science. This is the guy who turned little squirrels into batteries for his robots. I want to see him put a harness on Chaos and ride that sucker into a tornado. That’s a final boss.

Why can’t that be the final act of just one game?

 

54 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's what the Time Eater was.

It, uh.

Wasn't good.

The Japanese version of Lost World also implies he intended to do something similar to the Zeti once he finished getting set up.

29 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How about a monster that actually likes Eggman? Monster doesn't betray Eggman, Eggman doesn't betray the monster.

They just genuinely form a villainous friendship and actually hit it off well with each other. It could be some good character development for Eggman while also bringing in a fresh new villainous face.

Infinite doesn't really fit this, since Eggman does the whole "You have failed me" thing to him in the end. 

That sounds kinda like Dr. Nega in his introduction, but he doesn't count either.

 

15 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

I honestly don't understand that part, it feels so out of character for Eggman , that felt more like SATam  Robotnik Than Game eggman

 

Eh, to be fair, Infinite deserved it.

There's also the E-Series minus Gamma and possibly ZERO.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

He was still stringing Eggman along in SA2 so he could destroy the world though.

We did see a genuine mutually-respectful partnership between them in Sonic Rivals 2, although both of them were acting in a heroic role in that game. Like I said, despite it being Shadow's and Metal Sonic's episode, Eggman was really more of a character in that story and it felt more like a partnership between Shadow and Eggman with Metal Sonic acting as Eggman's proxy. The cutscenes were mostly Shadow and Eggman talking with each other and working together, etc.

True.

Until the ending, but very true.