Sonic the Platformer

[Candescence]

Once again, I have to say I'd rather see the Unleashed style die in a fire. Yes, Sonic was fast, but when the gameplay becomes Nintendo Hard for all the wrong reasons, there's something seriously wrong, and it doesn't help that quite a lot of the HD version seemed like a whole lot of QTEs, some blind and some not, and some with seriously unrealistic expectations. I'm looking at you, Eggmanland. The Wii version pretty much did away with all the unfair bits. But still, I'd rather kill the boost, and reduce his acceleration greatly. Also, moar platforming.

Seriously, if I want to run across the street, rebound off of a car, land against a building, start running up that building, jump off, boost through the air across a city block, and change my trajectory in mid-air so I can aim for and boost towards the ground, all in a bid to get to the shop so I can buy a new chili dog

There's already a game where you can do that and more. It's called Prototype.

Edited August 23, 2009 by The Sniper

[Nepenthe]

There are plenty of level design features in the old games that make it impossible to pull an Unleashed and speed all of the way through. Just look at Marble Zone: There is backtracking to be had, pillars, vertical climbs, push-block puzzle elements, slow moving platforms suspended above lava pits of doom, and enemies that will force even the most seasoned speed-runners to immensely slow down or even stop altogether which is, as Diogenes said, hardly different from Unleashed's general set-up. On the general note, I don't see why Sonic's speed has to be earned for no other reason than the fact that its his super power, his defining trait, and thus it should be naturally integrated into his repertoire. It's like saying one should have to earn the right to jump in Mario. Why? There are other ways of providing thrills--

I had no problem with the boost's existence because it was meant to be a tool as much as it was to provide easy satisfaction; Its ability to encourage you to keep going added to the challenge of conquering the level design by dodging the various obstacles littered throughout which, when you are able to do so, is a very thrilling endeavor in its own right. And not only were there sections that required you to use it (The water running sections, the chase bits with that very determined robot, and the straightaways blocked with enemies for example), there were also spots that made you make slightly strategic use of the boost if you wanted to reach them, two areas in particular being the the boost rings after Dragon Road's water section, and the boost rings and rails in the beginning of Jungle Joyride's village section. Speed can be used in a multitude of ways to enhance the experience and even encourage exploration which was, I believe, the entire mantra for Unleashed's unorthodox play style.

There's already a game where you can do that and more. It's called Prototype.

Oh....

Then why is Sonic Team sitting on their asses?! Apply that shit now!

[Miko]

Azukara, you make a good point, but speed only discourages Stopping, it doesn't discourage exploring. If anything, it ENCOURAGES exploring since, as a fast character, Sonic can transverse large pieces of land, exploring more of it.

Slowing down does encourage exploring.

1. If the objective is for the character to keep speed, the levels will have a relatively linear design. If they don't, the player is at a loss for what direction they need to focus their speed in and will inevitably need to slow down or stop to grasp some sense of direction.

2. This kind of level layout does not encourage exploring on a 360 degree fashion. You may as well just stay 2D.

This kind of ideology doesn't take into account the growing ammount of people, especially children who would rather be able to explore the field in a 360 manner than maintaining acceleration.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm personally of the opinion that I don't care much about Sonic games being literally fast. I just want to them to feel intense.

The original Sonic game wasn't as fast as its descendants, but it still felt like an action packed experience. I'd rather feel like I'm playing a plat-former with a bit of an edge to it, then a strange racing/platformer hybrid. I'm not incapable of enjoying that style- I loved the Rushes and the PS2/Wii version of Unleashed- but still, I prefer depth of gameplay to the somewhat shallow thrill of bursting through everything in my path.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

All I want is to feel fast because I am fast again. Thing is, I like speed sections, but not when they feel like the focus of the entire level. Nor when it feels as though you're being funneled through the level.

This is what I liked about Sonic '06, it split itself into sections rather than forcing the entire level to be long and thin to deal with possible transition problems.

The thing I like more about previous games (both 2D and 3D) is that I felt like I was fast because I was the one in control.

For me, Unleashed felt more like I was just watching Sonic be fast. I had this same problem with the new Prince of Persia, where it felt as though I was being lead into everything rather than doing it myself because of the 'flow', or snap-to-grid gameplay.

Concur. I liked the '06 segregation of eye-searing mach speed and the more sensibly-paced, explore-y style sections. It lets Sonic technically keep the speed he's known for, but doesn't require you to be slip/sliding about all over the place in areas where you're allowed to wander about slow enough to actually see the scenery.

In my opinion the old Genesis games were in fact very little about speed, and what speed they had was (as with '06) largely segregated into areas specifically constructed for swiftness. The underground tubes in Green Hill Zone, leting you pick up speed and then blasting you out flying upwards into the air? Just ONE PART of the level. The rest of it was cautious jumping across platforms between spike pits. In Sonic 3, four out of five levels had water in them, and THAT'S not condusive to Sonic going fast. Sure, you had occasional rides on the blue pipes in Hydrocity, but then you end upright back to being completly stationary while you wait for those rotating blue/purple platforms to bob their way down to you. Star Light Zone let you roll around green loop-the-loops picking up speed, but then one of those damn fans would grind you to a halt. And so on and so forth.

The old stages had EXPLORATION in buckets, though. Chains of floating platforms in the sky in Green Hill Zone leading to ring-filled plateaux; the secret rooms in Marble Zone, hidden under the spiked mashers; searching all over the place to find a bubble location in Labyrinth... etc. THAT'S what I found most fun about them.

[Rusty Spy]

In my opinion the old Genesis games were in fact very little about speed, and what speed they had was (as with '06) largely segregated into areas specifically constructed for swiftness. The underground tubes in Green Hill Zone, leting you pick up speed and then blasting you out flying upwards into the air? Just ONE PART of the level. The rest of it was cautious jumping across platforms between spike pits. In Sonic 3, four out of five levels had water in them, and THAT'S not condusive to Sonic going fast. Sure, you had occasional rides on the blue pipes in Hydrocity, but then you end upright back to being completly stationary while you wait for those rotating blue/purple platforms to bob their way down to you. Star Light Zone let you roll around green loop-the-loops picking up speed, but then one of those damn fans would grind you to a halt. And so on and so forth.

I concur! While it is mostly true that platforming sections and areas built for speed were segregated, it doesn't mean you could go fast in most of the platform sections and most of the time, areas between them were mostly flat, short pieces of landscape. Most of the time, platform sections, or slow sections in general could be gotten through at a pretty fast pace regardless.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I agree with Nitrogen and Virgo. Speed used to be part of a larger whole, not the whole in itself.

[Candescence]

Oh....

Then why is Sonic Team sitting on their asses?! Apply that shit now!

Lulz.

Speaking of Prototype... The mature rating, genre and Alex's psychopathy aside, I think Sonic and Prototype have a surprising amount in common. The first thing would be running speed. Granted, Alex Mercer doesn't run as fast as Sonic, but these days, he's probably second-only to Sonic in his on-foot running speed. Mercer can run up and along walls, air-dash, and all sorts of crazy-awesome stunts that Sonic should be doing by now in the games, and non-automated, to boot. And as well, to me, it had that kind of flow that was previously seen only in Sonic, but once again, it pulled it off without being automated and not even really having any kind of focus on speed.

[Blacklightning]

I'll agree with the basic message of the thread to an extent, but personally, I don't see any reason why Sonic can't be both a twitch-reflex speed monster and a vaugely oldschool platformer at the same time. Hell, take Unleashed, improve the low speed controls and handling, and make a clear distinction as to where a stupendous amount of speed is and isn't likely to get you killed, and you'd be on a great start already. Because, well let's face it, as long as one is fulfilled and not the other, someone will be bitching, and usually for all the wrong reasons.

Quite frankly, one could argue that slowing Sonic down for the sake of platforming completely defeats the purpose of making a Sonic game (which, to an extent, it does), but now we have people arguing that making him faster completely defeats the purpose of being a platformer (which again it does, to another extent). So I say fuck everything and do both. Find a way to make speed and platforming shake hands and work tandem with each other so we can forget this silly debate ever happened. It's hardly an impossible task - other games out there are well on their way to it, in fact.

[Chaos Skies]

Slowing down does encourage exploring.

1. If the objective is for the character to keep speed, the levels will have a relatively linear design. If they don't, the player is at a loss for what direction they need to focus their speed in and will inevitably need to slow down or stop to grasp some sense of direction.

2. This kind of level layout does not encourage exploring on a 360 degree fashion. You may as well just stay 2D.

This kind of ideology doesn't take into account the growing ammount of people, especially children who would rather be able to explore the field in a 360 manner than maintaining acceleration.

Never said slowing down doesn't encouarge exploration. All I said was that going fast doesn't discourage it. Yes, slowing down can encourage exploration, but why do we have to slow down a fast character just to explore? Why not create levels and gameplay which can utilize his speed to explore? Which leads beautifully into what Blacklightning says:

I'll agree with the basic message of the thread to an extent, but personally, I don't see any reason why Sonic can't be both a twitch-reflex speed monster and a vaugely oldschool platformer at the same time. Hell, take Unleashed, improve the low speed controls and handling, and make a clear distinction as to where a stupendous amount of speed is and isn't likely to get you killed, and you'd be on a great start already. Because, well let's face it, as long as one is fulfilled and not the other, someone will be bitching, and usually for all the wrong reasons.

Quite frankly, one could argue that slowing Sonic down for the sake of platforming completely defeats the purpose of making a Sonic game (which, to an extent, it does), but now we have people arguing that making him faster completely defeats the purpose of being a platformer (which again it does, to another extent). So I say fuck everything and do both. Find a way to make speed and platforming shake hands and work tandem with each other so we can forget this silly debate ever happened. It's hardly an impossible task - other games out there are well on their way to it, in fact.

Nice. Sonic in 3D is different than Sonic in 2D. For there to be a great Sonic game in 3D, Sonic needs to be re-invented in 3D (much like any other 2D to 3D franchise has had to do). There really is no reason why we can't explore with a fast Sonic (at least I don't think so); we just need a re-invention of Sonic (harder said than done, I understand)

Edited August 24, 2009 by Chaos Skies

[azoo]

I concur! While it is mostly true that platforming sections and areas built for speed were segregated, it doesn't mean you could go fast in most of the platform sections and most of the time, areas between them were mostly flat, short pieces of landscape. Most of the time, platform sections, or slow sections in general could be gotten through at a pretty fast pace regardless.

And I concur as well! This is how Sonic should be, and if I was to get a game that played like SA1, had perfectly-replicated Sonic physics, a fixed (free-moving) camera, and level design that FroNitro just described, we would have ourselves a winner! =D

Miko has exactly what I mean down-pat as well. The point of 3D is to take what you had in 2D, and take advantage of it in a new dimension. And obviously, that "taking advantage" includes exploration of more directions than that of forward and backward.

And who says that Sonic has to be reinvented for the jump to 3D? As much as I remember, Rayman 2 wasn't much different from Rayman 1, and it was a 3D jump done well. Rayman still had simplistic combat, his helicopter hair ability, tons of puzzles and tons of exploration. The only changes were that they added a small Z-target-esque system that did nothing but improve Rayman's 3D transition.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Azukara

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Never said slowing down doesn't discouarge exploration. All I said was that going fast doesn't discourage it. Yes, slowing down can encourage exploration, but why do we have to slow down a fast character just to explore? Why not create levels and gameplay which can utilize his speed to explore? Which leads beautifully into what Blacklightning says:

Because it's quite hard to spot a secret passage hidden behind foreground vines (hello there, Aquatic Ruin Zone) if you're blitzing through a level too fast to see anything and the speed-blur washes all the details out of the environment.

[Chaos Skies]

Because it's quite hard to spot a secret passage hidden behind foreground vines (hello there, Aquatic Ruin Zone) if you're blitzing through a level too fast to see anything and the speed-blur washes all the details out of the environment.

Aw man, I do that in my sleep lol

I do understand what you mean though. But I must also go back to the 2D vs 3D debate. You're comparing exploration in a 3D field with exploration in a 2D field. This kind-of goes back to the whole idea of reinventing sonic in a 3D field. For example, I'm kind-of thinking about Shadow of the Colossus for some reason, but exploration in game like that seems really fun if your character was fast.

[serpx]

Jumping on things can be fun, but gets old.

Running really fast can be fun, but gets old.

Running really fast and jumping on things hardly ever gets old. We must have both.

We must have slow sections (not Werehog) to balance out the speed sections. It helps pacing, and gives the player a variety of entertainment.

[azoo]

Rementioning what I said:

And who says that Sonic has to be reinvented for the jump to 3D? As much as I remember, Rayman 2 wasn't much different from Rayman 1, and it was a 3D jump done well. Rayman still had simplistic combat, his helicopter hair ability, tons of puzzles and tons of exploration. The only changes were that they added a small Z-target-esque system that did nothing but improve Rayman's 3D transition.

So really, just because Sonic is faster than your usual platformer doesn't mean it has to be extremely different from it's 2D outings to work well in 3D. Actually, that makes little to no sense. =P Seriously, if SA1 manages to almost 100% succeed at imitating 2D Sonic in 3D, then why must he be "reinvented" if we've found out a formula is proven to work?

[SykoTech]

Honestly, I'm not one that sweats the specifics.

Just give me a game that allows me to move fast like Unleashed (I don't care if it's by boosting, rolling, physics, or whatever), lets me freely move around at intense speeds (no death traps or corridors), has a generous amount of platforming, and has interesting missions (none of that bullshit that Secret Rings, Black Knight, and Unleashed Wii had).

I'd be happy.

[Cobalt_Bolt]

The type of Sonic game that I would prefer would be one that has balanced platforming game play with plenty of high speed areas in the mix to keep me well entertained

[Miko]

Never said slowing down doesn't encouarge exploration. All I said was that going fast doesn't discourage it. Yes, slowing down can encourage exploration, but why do we have to slow down a fast character just to explore?

It depends on what you mean by "explore." If you mean In a 360 degree fashion? Yes. Because you need to make the path rather linear and discourage 360 level exploration in order to help the player maintain some kind of acceleration. Werehog Sonic was in part meant to address the fact many members of the younger generation especially want that kind of exploration. They don't want to sacrifice it to accelerate.

And who says that Sonic has to be reinvented for the jump to 3D? As much as I remember, Rayman 2 wasn't much different from Rayman 1, and it was a 3D jump done well. Rayman still had simplistic combat, his helicopter hair ability, tons of puzzles and tons of exploration.

Well none of that affects how one would explore levels. You can still for example explore in a 360 field and do simplistic combat, have a helicopter ability, and puzzles. But who knows, one day people may want something that doesn't work well with that. The point is, characters that place an identity in some kind of gimmick will respond differently to transitions because their gameplay is different. Therefore Rayman or even Mario being able to make a transition with their kind of gameplay will not mean it will be possible for all. It also doesn't mean that if new transitions come along, that their gameplay will always be compatible. This is why I think Sonic should never have been about a gameplay gimmick. Her should've had some kind of identity in something that wouldn't affect the gameplay.

EDIT:

When you have two groups of fans (SEGA's targetted audience obviously not here to defend their POV much) who want things that practically contradict you're probably going to need an optional playability kind of thing. Which means no story mode or no "Final Story" mode.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Miko

[Badnik Zero]

Seriously, if I want to run across the street, rebound off of a car, land against a building, start running up that building, jump off, boost through the air across a city block, and change my trajectory in mid-air so I can aim for and boost towards the ground, all in a bid to get to the shop so I can buy a new chili dog, then I should be allowed to do so; Let me break out of those pinball physics and linear rails when I want to. Once they've given me that kind of hedgehog, I want them to say, "Here's a level, now go out and conquer, and look good while doing it." So in a way, I would rather them build the levels around what Sonic can do because with how such a character can really move, I reckon that entire levels could be just as much about platforming as they could be about speed, and your experience with either element would just be dependent upon your preference for maneuvering through a level.

I agree that Sonic should be able to conquer his environment, but the level gimmicks of older games make for a better spread of gameplay. If it were up to me, pinball physics would be at the core of every Sonic game, but that's not to say that other acrobatics should be excluded. The very early games needed you to run or use slopes to gain speed, and that was all rolling movement, but by Sonic 2 and CD they broke that rule and included the spin dash for some instant speed and momentum. Back then Sonic hadn't become a time attack type of game, so a move like that helped the series along. The boost is the same way, and I wouldn't even mind it so much if we weren't encouraged to go as fast as possible.

What others said about level design is right. I've heard some comments about how great the scenery in Unleashed is, but how most players will speed by it all without a second look. I mean, what if there was a whole other area of the level behind those bushes? It could certainly be done, but it just blurs by in a game like Unleashed. The topic's kind of steered towards the open level discussion, but that's very relevant. The fastest way from A to B is a straight line, and Sonic's levels are mostly just that. From a developer's point of view, especially considering what was said about how long day levels took in Unleashed, wouldn't you want a player to spend more time in the world you created? Then Sonic shouldn't be worried about how fast he gets from A to B, as long as he does it in a speedy fashion, and as long as it's still fun. Platforming gimmicks give players that playground they'll want to spend more time in.

As far as open world games, I remember fantasizing about the first 3D games back with the Saturn and Playstation. Like virtual reality kind of stuff, what it would be like to be Sonic. I haven't really felt that from any of his 3D games. Maybe because his character is so wild, it'd be hard to give a player complete control of that. I think they're trying with the LOL speed, but it's not really working. I'm all for open worlds as a damper on speed. Instead of A to B, take Sonic to a whole bunch of different letters and make it an adventure. It would give players more to do, and give Sega that replay and content they're always reaching for.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Badnikz

[Chaos Walker]

CRAAAAAP!!!!

You stole my topic! If only I hadn't procrastinated the whole summer! Meh, oh well. I'm over it now. But just to be clear I agree with you 112%. (Don't ask how)

I feel SA had the perfect speed for platforming and... speeding.

[JezMM]

"So, you want a realistic down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?"

"And, also, you should win things by watching!"

I'm with the party that says we should fine-tune what we got in Unleashed. Make the controls more precise for slow areas, and stop using invisible walls to block off explorable looking areas.

Edited August 24, 2009 by JezMM

[Arrow]

I think the whole boost thing needs to be developed. I didn't like Unleashed, but that and the corner slide thing I thought were really cool.

This is Sonic the Hedgehog, after all, and the first thing most people associate with the speed of sound is the sonic boom. An ILLUSION of going "real damn fast" can surely be achieved with being able to boost from stationary to top speed instead of having to gain speed slowly all the time. When you have to gain speed slowly, it's always going to seem slow, no matter how fast you're going. Real life, or in game. Fast acceleration, however, seems fast no matter how slow the top speed is.

With the help of sound and visual affects, creating the illusion of Sonic hitting an insane speed is surely possible, without compromising on game play.

Boosting is just such a fantastic idea I think, because it goes back to Sonic's initial design concept, multitasking! To have a character that can jump and attack at the same time. With boosting you have a way to attack, clear large gaps and water, break through things and speed up all in one move.

Also, why is there no "sonic boom" sound present in any of the games? I mean, really, could it not be made a deal out of when you hit top speed and you could collect extra... points or rings or items or something. That just seems obvious to me, that if you name your character after the speed of sound, you'd utilize that into game play.

I'd also like to see more of, say, Sonic having to keep up with... things. I like the idea, at least, of the bosses you have to chase.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Arrow

[Miko]

This bigger problem SEGA's realized just seems to fall on deaf ears here. The kids don't want the speed. Sonic the name means more than just speed. It means sound. Maybe they should revisit Ohshima's original ideas and define the name Sonic to mean something other than a specific gameplay style which has multiple ideas put in per game that are optional.

[Rusty Spy]

This is Sonic the Hedgehog, after all, and the first thing most people associate with the speed of sound is the sonic boom. An ILLUSION of going "real damn fast" can surely be achieved with being able to boost from stationary to top speed instead of having to gain speed slowly all the time. When you have to gain speed slowly, it's always going to seem slow, no matter how fast you're going. Real life, or in game. Fast acceleration, however, seems fast no matter how slow the top speed is.

No, this isn't the case. It doesn't matter how fast you accelerate, it's your top speed that matters in the long run. If I go from 0 to 50 in an instant, it's still not going to feel as fast as going 0 to 100 in about 5 seconds. Look at Sonic Advance 2. It had a relatively slow acceleration, but an insane top speed, and it still felt loads faster than any spindash from the Genesis games.

Not to mention having a fast acceleration sacrifices control and ability to go slow easily, like say, when doing some platforming.

Edited August 24, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[Arrow]

No, this isn't the case. It doesn't matter how fast you accelerate, it's your top speed that matters in the long run. If I go from 0 to 50 in an instant, it's still not going to feel as fast as going 0 to 100 in about 5 seconds. Look at Sonic Advance 2. It had a relatively slow acceleration, but an insane top speed, and it still felt loads faster than any spindash from the Genesis games.

Not to mention having a fast acceleration sacrifices control and ability to go slow easily, like say, when doing some platforming.

You're wrong. Well, you are when it comes to the physical world. The increase in speed per second is what counts when experiancing speed. 50mph will feel more intense than 100 if the time it took to get there was less than half. Thats just... a fact. It's debatable in game whether or not this makes an impact, though. But there are racing games out there that employ little other than fancy affects and a "boost" to give an illusion of speed. Also, a lot of speed illusion is to to do with comparisons. Being in a car, racing past other cars, hedges and dead hedgehogs seems faster than being stuck inside a plane.

And I'm suggesting that you are given the choice, by having a boost button, to either gradually gain speed... or slam into full speed. Long, straight, tunnel like sections of levels would make boosting appropriate... and I'd also like to see landscapes such as loops being fatal if you aren't going fast enough, bringing physics into the game. Whilst other areas are obviously inappropriate for boosting.

EDIT: With regard to SA2/classic comparison, that's more to do with response time. In SA2, Sonic is almost too quick to respond. He's twitchy. He can take tiny steps. You couldn't do that back in the day. It was either stand here, or here, no inbetween.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Arrow