Sonic Forces: Infinite Unmasked (SPOILERS/Speculation)

[The Deleter]

No, laughing at entire characters is harmful in how invested people who want to care about them can be.

If this entire series was a comedy where every single character laughed at every single trait another displayed, this direction might make sense, and it'd fit with the characterization and tone of the series overall.

It isn't.

Sonic isn't mocked for his attitude and speed, Tails isn't laughed at for his naivete, Amy isn't laughed at for her obsession over Sonic, and Eggman isn't (typically) laughed at for deciding to make a bunch of robot animals rather than killer robots.

Stop trying to pretend like this is what the series is, and this is what it takes to make a character endearing for people in this series. It isn't.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

That's not salvaging it. The character is as shallow as they were before, except now they're a joke.

At least then I'd be laughing unironically.

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

What would the point of the "joke" even be anyway? That kids shouldn't create fan cahracters or we'll make fun of them? Lol. That's original territory.

Maybe contrast Infinite as an overpowered edgy loner power fantasy vs the Avatar character as a more down-to-earth team player? Take away some of the mystique of the archetype by showing it as selfish and damaging (to himself as well as others) rather than just "cool" and thus something to imitate.

You can criticize a thing without making it an outright attack on children.

[GentlemanX]

This is literally the only time a sword has been in any way referenced with regards to Infinite. Can't it just be something he's capable of conjuring that he uses exactly once or twice in a boss fight?

That's why lots of folks are saying we don't have enough information. Especially because this is Infinite who's powers are a mystery right now.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Maybe contrast Infinite as an overpowered edgy loner power fantasy vs the Avatar character as a more down-to-earth team player? Take away some of the mystique of the archetype by showing it as selfish and damaging (to himself as well as others) rather than just "cool" and thus something to imitate.

You can criticize a thing without making it an outright attack on children.

I mean knowing past Sonic games the games might actually pull the whole "I won because I have friends" thing.

But yeah that's something different than what was suggested earlier. I wouldn't mind that as much.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

No, laughing at entire characters is harmful in how invested people who want to care about them can be.

Really. It's bad to laugh at characters that people like, because of people invested in them?

This is a franchise whose 90s marketing spent an inordinate amount of time talking about how lame and uncool Mario was. 

[JosepHenry]

Not just kids, Japan loves those characters And I'm sure majority are adults.

[Crazy_Diamond]

OK, honestly I don't get this discussion at all. So everyone is saying that Infinite is bad because he has a bunch of "cool" traits. By that logic you all should hate Sonic lol. No, but I know that the real reason is the fact that the "cool" traits have not been justified. But you do realize that again, it will most likely be justified when the game comes out. Infinite's mysterious nature has been emphasized in trailers, so of course they will solve that mystery in game. People are also laughing at how edgy and ridiculous he is, but honestly? Infinite just looks like a standard shonen villain to me. 

I'm pretty sure Infinite even takes this exact pose lol. But Frieza is still far more edgy than Infinite, considering he committed genocide against an entire race, and has likely done that multiple times over. What will really show if Infinite is a good character or not is how shallow he is. If he's just a generic evil guy with no motivations, no goals, no dreams, and no hopes, then he'll be really bad. However, I don't think that will be the case, because his lyrics suggest that he does have goals and hopes, and that is what he is pursuing by becoming Infinite. If that show that in a cool way, I think Infinite has the potential to be a great character.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

I'm pretty sure Infinite even takes this exact pose lol. But Frieza is still far more edgy than Infinite, considering he committed genocide against an entire race, and has likely done that multiple times over. What will really show if Infinite is a good character or not is how shallow he is. If he's just a generic evil guy with no motivations, no goals, no dreams, and no hopes, then he'll be really bad. However, I don't think that will be the case, because his lyrics suggest that he does have goals and hopes, and that is what he is pursuing by becoming Infinite. If that show that in a cool way, I think Infinite has the potential to be a great character.

I mean, comparing him to DBZ isn't a selling point anyway.

I feel like the original Dragon Ball was a fun, lighthearted, romp of an adventure. Then Z came along and made everything about constant escalation and power levels, throwing all the whimsy of the original series out the window. (It had its good parts; Mr. Satan was a breath of fresh air)

Actually, it's a totally appropriate comparison.

[The Deleter]

4 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Really. It's bad to laugh at characters that people like, because of people invested in them?

This is a franchise whose 90s marketing spent an inordinate amount of time talking about how lame and uncool Mario was. 

You're an Eggman fan. I shouldn't even have to explain to you why treating your antagonist as a total joke for the sake of a satirical laugh at his concept is a bad idea.

[Kuzu]

There are plenty of ways of making Infinite work that don't have to devolve into making fun of his entire character.

1 minute ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

OK, honestly I don't get this discussion at all. So everyone is saying that Infinite is bad because he has a bunch of "cool" traits. By that logic you all should hate Sonic lol. No, but I know that the real reason is the fact that the "cool" traits have not been justified. But you do realize that again, it will most likely be justified when the game comes out. Infinite's mysterious nature has been emphasized in trailers, so of course they will solve that mystery in game. People are also laughing at how edgy and ridiculous he is, but honestly? Infinite just looks like a standard shonen villain to me. 

I'm pretty sure Infinite even takes this exact pose lol. But Frieza is still far more edgy than Infinite, considering he committed genocide against an entire race, and has likely done that multiple times over. What will really show if Infinite is a good character or not is how shallow he is. If he's just a generic evil guy with no motivations, no goals, no dreams, and no hopes, then he'll be really bad. However, I don't think that will be the case, because his lyrics suggest that he does have goals and hopes, and that is what he is pursuing by becoming Infinite. If that show that in a cool way, I think Infinite has the potential to be a great character.

This is exactly why people are laughing at him. It's fucking Sonic the Hedgehog, not Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, or Bleach or that type of shit. It's the same problem people had with Shadow around the mid 2000's. The series became some glorified Action Anime and barely resembled what it once was and almost all of the levity was sucked out of it.

I'm not saying Sonic needs to be sunshine and rainbows at all times, but don't you think there's a problem when we're resorting to DBZ tier villains and powers when the primary antagonist of the franchise is an overweight scientist with a comically inflated ego? Does that not stick out to you as extremely jarring?

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, The Deleter said:

You're an Eggman fan. I shouldn't even have to explain to you why treating your antagonist as a total joke for the sake of a satirical laugh at his concept is a bad idea.

Which brings me back to my main point.

Infinite shouldn't even be the main antagonist of this game. The plot is that Eggman took over the world. Undermining that accomplishment by having some random new character steal his thunder is really dumb.

[Diogenes]

It's not just that Infinite's "cool points" aren't justified yet, but that he's a big mass of generic/cliche yet-to-be-justified "cool points". Even if they tried to justify it all he'd still almost certainly be pretty lame, because being "a standard shonen villain" is pretty lame.

[JosepHenry]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

There are plenty of ways of making Infinite work that don't have to devolve into making fun of his entire character.

This is exactly why people are laughing at him. It's fucking Sonic the Hedgehog, not Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, or Bleach or that type of shit. It's the same problem people had with Shadow around the mid 2000's. The series became some glorified Action Anime and barely resembled what it once was and almost all of the levity was sucked out of it.

I'm not saying Sonic needs to be sunshine and rainbows at all times, but don't you think there's a problem when we're resorting to DBZ tier villains and powers when the primary antagonist of the franchise is an overweight scientist with a comically inflated ego? Does that not stick out to you as extremely jarring?

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

Yeah, but this is a parody in the same way the Death Egg is a parody.

It's supposed to be a cute, funny nod to something that's immediately recognizable. It doesn't make the games tonally like Dragon Ball Z or Star Wars.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

You do realize this started as a parody right?

And even then, it wasn't until Sonic Adventure when they started treating Super forms like Shonen power ups. It was literally an extra that could be ignored if you chose to do so.

[JosepHenry]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You do realize this started as a parody right?

And even then, it wasn't until Sonic Adventure when they started treating Super forms like Shonen power ups. It was literally an extra that could be ignored if you chose to do so.

Nevermind.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You do realize this started as a parody right?

And even then, it wasn't until Sonic Adventure when they started treating Super forms like Shonen power ups. It was literally an extra that could be ignored if you chose to do so.

I mean, Sonic 3 is the first game that threw it in as a plot extension if you want to get technical

[Kuzu]

Just now, Joseph Henry said:

Sonic itself is a DBZ parody.

Is DBZ with cartoony animals.

....Since when? Show me the source on this. Where was this ever stated.

Just now, Josh said:

I mean, Sonic 3 is the first game that threw it in as a plot extension if you want to get technical

That's true, so I'll give it that.

[Dr. Mechano]

 

Just now, Joseph Henry said:

Sonic itself is a DBZ parody.

Is DBZ with cartoony animals.

No it isn't?

DBZ didn't really have a goofy mad scientist as one of its main recurring antagonists, for starters. DBZ villains tended to all be innately powerful themselves rather than relying on their intelligence and mechanical know-how.

also sonic actually does things other than scream for hours while charging up

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

Sonic itself is a DBZ parody.

Is DBZ with cartoony animals.

No. It has a reference to DBZ, but it is not trying to be DBZ.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No. It has a reference to DBZ, but it is not trying to be DBZ.

At least until Sonic Adventure anyway :V

That's how we got things like this...

 

...Man, mid 2000's were some shit...

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's true, so I'll give it that.

The third game is pretty early on to establish something as a serious thing too. It makes more sense to see it that way than as a parody, as even the "good" Sonic games treat it as an emotional moment ala DBZ. It went from parody to following the trope.

There's...not much wrong with that either. Some Super Sonic moments were really cool and earned imo.

[Crazy_Diamond]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

There are plenty of ways of making Infinite work that don't have to devolve into making fun of his entire character.

This is exactly why people are laughing at him. It's fucking Sonic the Hedgehog, not Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, or Bleach or that type of shit. It's the same problem people had with Shadow around the mid 2000's. The series became some glorified Action Anime and barely resembled what it once was and almost all of the levity was sucked out of it.

I'm not saying Sonic needs to be sunshine and rainbows at all times, but don't you think there's a problem when we're resorting to DBZ tier villains and powers when the primary antagonist of the franchise is an overweight scientist with a comically inflated ego? Does that not stick out to you as extremely jarring?

I wouldn't be worried about levity mate. The story seems to be almost like Sonic Heroes in nature, where you fight an edgy villain with the super power of teamwork! Hell, even the main theme has this in spades.

Quote

Together we can show the world what we can do
You are next to me and I'm next to you
Push me on through until the battle's won
No one’s gonna give a thing to us
Into each other we put our trust
Standing united, after the fight
All alone, we will never be
The two, of us, are holding the key
We see, today, a world we couldn't see
Before I say goodbye to you
One more last fist bump...

And this is just a small part of the theme, the whole main theme is about friendship and working together, etc. The story is obviously going in the direction where you defeat the powerful Infinite through the power of friendship, just like with this guy.

The only thing I'm worried about is that he'll be sort of generic just like Neo Metal Sonic was.

[Diogenes]

It's true that later games legitimized Super Sonic, but that doesn't mean the whole series is supposed to be like DBZ; what happened is that they started with a DBZ parody and then made it their own.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

The third game is pretty early on to establish something as a serious thing too. It makes more sense to see it that way than as a parody, as even the "good" Sonic games treat it as an emotional moment ala DBZ. It went from parody to following the trope.

There's...not much wrong with that either. Some Super Sonic moments were really cool and earned imo.

I feel the DBZness started to overtake the series though; particularly with characters like Shadow and Silver and of course, when there was an actual Anime airing at the time. Its like you said, it went from a parody and reference to playing the tropes straight.