Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Zaysho said:

My wording may have been a bit unclear, but I was focused on Shadow turning into a zombot and being a prideful idiot (he claims that it's fine because he's the Ultimate Life Form--despite being organic--and ignores the advice he got two pages before not to touch the zombies). It's consistent enough with how he kind of is some times in more recent games, or at least how Sega pretends he is, that I accept this is the best way to work it out even though it's kind of frustrating seeing him behave like a dolt.

I believe the idea is that in lore he supposed to be immune to diseases , he figured it would work against a metal disease. And its weird because he seemed reasonable and funny in forces... but I guess they changed their mind? Maybe forces did so bad they decided to go a different way with shadow? Dunno

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I'll lend credit that I think Shadow's reason for being angry with Sonic is justifiable even though I understand Sonic's perspective too. Unfortunately, every decision Sonic made in the previous arc came back to bite him, and it's something anyone reading would have seen coming. Looking at it from the perspective of the character, at least, it isn't difficult to see why Sonic left "Tinker" alone (he did entertain the possibility Eggman could resurface so he'd check in but things outside his control happened that he couldn't have even known about because he was occupied with Metal and no one from the village could find him at the time).

 

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Sonic did the "right" thing, not the "correct" thing.

Sonic totally did the thing he thought was right. Sonic isn't a pragmantic kinda guy and I don't want him to be. Its why I find premises like Dark Sonic and the evil fleet way sonic uninteresting ( I find fleetway sonic uninteresting in general, he's a bit of jerk innnit ) . I like sonic being a chill dude and a light in a lot of peoples life. I also just want sonic to occasionally be met with challenges where he has to ...think.

 

 

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I'm kinda half and half on this scenario, but I'd need to think about it some more to decide what I'd want to see differently since I came off of binging eight issues and overall liked it for what it was. This is reminiscent of their argument in the previous arc though, and Sonic brought up that if Eggman--who was, at the time, not even Eggman--can't be forgiven, then neither can Shadow.

Part of the reason I want the scenario to happen is because I found that comparison kinda of bullshit? Like, no yeah shadow can be forgiven. He had his brained messed with and then dedicated his life to doing better. That guy who commits genocide on a semi regular basis of his own free will should be treated with less courtesy yeah. I feel like they should have stuck with the memory argument. In the scenario I pitch however, shadow gets to defend himself and who is and shows sonic how much he has done and comparing him to eggman shows the perspective sonic lacks.

Its why I think framing shadow in a competency situation instead of ego works better. You can have shadow be upset because now he thinks sonic thinks this entire scenario is a game, sonic has some vague sense of bad and what other things has he basically ruined because he lacks perspective. I feel like shadow can be used as a vector if allowed to criticize sonic in a meaningful way.

And I feel like a scenario where this story ends and everyone is celebrating and he calls sonic out and tells everyone about themselves allows for that.

 

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I get where you're coming from, but it starts to sound like Shadow should be painted as so in the right that everyone else is a moron for not agreeing with him. They're foils, they have similar goals, but have completely different methods/ideals to reaching them.

So I want to point out. I want shadow shadow to be right in this scenario because it sets up  that he has a point. It makes what he has done, have value .I feel like it would add perspective to who shadow is as a character and establish him as a force in the comics, I don't think he's done much at this point and I don't think ever really established him. Having him be right, to me communicates " Ok this is why he's an asshole " .

I want him to also be HELLA wrong in the future.

There's so much set up with him being a gigantic hard ass and ruining everything because he turned everything up to 11 and doesn't know how to talk to people. Forces is a bad game, but the premise of shadow being such a dick that he's creating more super villain's than he's actually stopping is a interesting premise. And I think that should be explored. Shadow should be hella wrong, just not now. Make him right for now, show that his perspective has some value pragmatically, and show his value as a character. And then make him wrong, this characterization allows for this, but it needs to be balanced out with sort of " victories " that allow for the reader to empathize with him. And considering shadow has yet to have one of those, I feel like he needs one. Then make him wrong in the future, but show he has value.

edit: And bonus not everyone's an idiot actually in my proposed scenario, its not just about eggman is about like no one taking steps to defend themselves , while shadow is angry an sonic yeah. Its more of his ideology. It speaks to how he and some of his friends deal with issues, sort of go with the flow, and if there is a concept shadow doesn't like its " Go with the flow " . Shadow's a " I can take my own path kinda guy " and while they disagree with the morality of it kinda agree with the over all sentiment of something needs to be done with how problems are handled around there. It could spark interesting thought within characters and maybe change their perspective a smudge.

Edit Edit: Also If you want to get a little nasty, you could have shadow get a bit meta. If anyone could be an excellent vector for criticism for some of the uh...unfortunate aspect of the moderns sonic era...its shadow. Drop a little line like " It really feels like we are just standing in the background wanting for sonic and eggman to solve our problems. And i'm tired of it " . And it would work on bonus meta level , because he was the first one playable in years.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I believe the idea is that in lore he supposed to be immune to diseases , he figured it would work against a metal disease. And its weird because he seemed reasonable and funny in forces... but I guess they changed their mind? Maybe forces did so bad they decided to go a different way with shadow? Dunno

I don't recall if it's ever actually come up (I know Archie mentions it, but it wasn't stated outright in SA2, and ShTH made it sound like Shadow's real purpose was the destroy the Black Arms) and it never struck me as a factor because the "virus" just transmutes organic material. Shadow isn't a robot or anything, he just thought he was "better" and did literally the stupidest thing he could do because of it. It honestly made a lot of sense he'd turn even if the way it was handled just made him look bad.

And to be honest, I don't think Sega is consistent with what they tell licensees; you're right, he wasn't like that, as I recall, in Forces, but I think Sega just expects alternative media to follow whatever vague character profiles they push for everything else.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I also just want sonic to occasionally be met with challenges where he has to ...think.

Well, that's why I like this arc. His past decisions coming back to bite him in such a major way is creating a new challenge for him. And it's not like choosing to leave Eggman alone was something he decided willy-nilly either, since he didn't trust him, so it was a challenge then too. Does he do the obvious thing and have him locked away, or give him a chance to live out his life in peace because he's being productive for a change?

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Part of the reason I want the scenario to happen is because I found that comparison kinda of bullshit? Like, no yeah shadow can be forgiven. He had his brained messed with and then dedicated his life to doing better. That guy who commits genocide on a semi regular basis of his own free will should be treated with less courtesy yeah.

The point of Sonic choosing to let "Tinker" live in peace was to give Eggman that same chance, because the parts that made him "Eggman" were gone. That's the point of his speech. To him, Eggman was turning over a new leaf.

It didn't work out, obviously, and Sonic has to live with making a bad decision here.

And the consequences here are more meaningful than anything the games have shoveled out.

I'm going at this from the perspective of the character because while there's the obvious dramatic irony that this was never going to be, the point is that the character didn't know that.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow should be hella wrong, just not now. Make him right, show that his perspective has some value pragmatically, then make him a big edgy dummy.

I feel like that is what's happening though. Shadow was justifiably angry with Sonic and I haven't really questioned that he was, ultimately, right about Eggman. The comic is already doing what you're saying they should do, because Sonic's decision had very unfortunate consequences. Hell, if Shadow had run like Rouge and everyone else told him to, we could have actually had a dynamic where the two are forced to work together and argue over how to deal with Eggman while fighting the infection. The only issue here is that Shadow was being an idiot and ignored sound advice to keep himself safe from the infection or how to fight it off.

To be honest, I'm starting to feel like we're arguing about something we actually agree on for a change and that we're just going around in circles about how it's presented.

[Shadowlax]

I think the book itself and flynn mention the disease immunity thing , so it did come up and it was relevant to the person writing. And in lore considering all the crazy shit he can do like manipulate time and space at whim, walking through bullets, willing himself to not succumb to mind control which depending on where this story goesmight be happening again, litterally being to angry to die, and being immortal, him thinking a virus metal or otherwise would do nothing to him I think makes sense narratively. And actually isnt that dumb, its what he does after he finds out I'd the larger issue.

 

Maybe. Sorry if it feels like we are going around in circles @Zaysho . I do however feel like it doesn't show his value pragmatically because kinda like the previous interaction is that it feels like they want you to disregard shadow. Ian Flynn says he wants it to be ambiguous but it feels like the writing doesn't allow you to agree with him kinda. In both situations shadow is made to look silly intentionally or unintentionally and his perspective is dismissed.

I think I mentioned this before but on my favorite things in anything with a story is a hard call out a character has to deal with. The story up to this point i feel has allowed the reader to go " well hes right maybe, but isnt he a jerk unlike sonic here" and i think that takes away from his point. A scenario where its presented shadow gets to speak his piece after it's all over and it just has to let it hang for me, is just kinda great. And something I hope happens to shadow himself eventually. Shadow deserves multiple call out posts one being tilted

"everyone has problems shut up you edgy looser"

And

"You can't control everything you have to deal with life as it comes and the people in it, or else people will think you are gigantic asshole and make your life of heroism harder and make you very lonely and I know you care about that because I hang out with you and I'm very aware if your insecurities "

by Rouge t. Bat. Quite the writer she is

I hard call out can grow the characters involved and those around them and I think this situation calls for it.

Yeah sonic is thinking , but I feel like hes kinda not looking at the grand point shadow was making. Which makes sense he has a very immediate problem he's dealing with. But after this is over for this story to work, they need to address the cycle. Because eggman is going to get away and that's it, we know this. And if does and nothing is, shadow and sonic's interactions were meaningless. He I an flynn wishes to make a meaningful point and criticism towards the cycle that is being perpetrated,  he has to call it out and lay it out for what it is. And shadow just informing him of this does that.

Shadow doesn't have a point and yet himself into zombies

Shadow doesn't have a point and made to look like an overly edgy goof who cant be bothered to defend himself verbally

He just had a point and he was right,  and he just told everyone how bad you (and possibly rouge if she is included in the call out post on shadows twitter.com ) screwed up and they get to react to that.

Because to tell this narrative you cant have one guy shitting his pants every time they try to make a point. That has essentially what has been happening, you need to make the other part of the argument look competent and the person wielding it because who's wielding it says things about the argument. Shadow has been made to look in every single interaction he has had incompetent. And if they want to tell a story where what shadow did matters he and his argument need to be presented competently , or else ever single issue with shadow in it where they have tried to do something with this argument and every single moment of Sonics introspection will be wasted. Because why should he listen to the man with shit in his pants. He can just disregard him like the audience has.

I guess you can call it how its presented, but presentation is important. And I feel to make this story matter, if you want something truly morally ambiguous. You dont present the opposition with shit in its pants all the time. Because that communicates to the reader how they should feel. Which is "disregard shit pants".

Also outside of that narrative mumbo jumbo, I like shadow and would prefer if the writer stopped doing that

[DabigRG]

So how little do you think Zeena might suck here compared to Lost World?

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

So how little do you think Zeena might suck here compared to Lost World?

She'll probably suck more due to not being as shallow.

Which was the point, eh?

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

She'll probably suck more due to not being as shallow.

Which was the point, eh?

Um...I'm sorry, what?

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Um...I'm sorry, what?

She was suppose to be shallow.

[DabigRG]

20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

She was suppose to be shallow.

Oh. 

I mean, under Pontac & Graff sure, but that's not what most of her bios describe.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

It took awhile for my local comic shop to get Tangle and Whisper #2 in so I'm only just reading it today. That said, it and #21 have pleasantly surprised me with the high-quality writing, and more importantly, engaging me in the story.

Spoiler

Discussing T&W2, I'm really beginning to enjoy Mimic as a villain, especially how he's now preying on both of the heroes' weaknesses. Using Tangle's lack of common sense against her, especially using Jewel to do it, even if it logistically doesn't make sense for her to be around was interesting, and I really liked how he shape-shifted into Whisper's comrades in order to prey on her guilt. He's proving to be something this comic sorely needed to date, a villain who can provide personal stakes, and ironically, it feels nice when the first two arcs have been solely massive world ending plots instead of smaller but personal tales.

I'm really intrigued about things. I've got two running theories right now that Mimic either turned into Shadow, and obliterated the rest of the group, causing Whisper's resentment of him back during the journey to Angel Island, or Shadow himself blitzed through the group. What I think would be really cool is if it turned out Whisper was apart of Jackal Squad, and therefore was apart of the group Shadow took out going for Eggman, giving her a tie-in to Infinite.

Another idea is I think since IIRC, Whisper's been confirmed to be a former merc, she plays up a shade of grey role. She's a hero now, but we can only assume she was a different person before whatever happened to her group happened. I think it would be interesting if she and her squad was one of the mercenary groups hired by Eggman to protect him while he was cooking up the Phantom Ruby scheme, indirectly playing a hand in Eggman's forced siege around the planet.

But yeah, good issue, can't wait to see where it goes.

#21 was also a really good issue, I'd argue one of the strongest in awhile. It felt like the first issue to have some real proper stakes this time around. Charmy and the Chao were kind of "shock" lead-ins, but I have to admit, I did expect Tails to get infected here. I honestly thought the issue would end with him managing to successfully create a cure and send it back to the Resistance, but Tails would end up sacrificing himself in the process, giving a much more gut-punch than Shadow's turning. I'm happy he didn't turn though, even if I thought it was going to happen for sure when the Zombots managed to destroy the Tornado 2. 

But really, the reason I loved this episode is just the fact it felt like a Tails spotlight issue. I'll come out and say it, it feels good to like Tails again. What used to be my favourite character in the whole series became more and more unlikeable in the main series of games as it continued, and while IDW started getting him back up to snuff again, especially with how he interacted with Sonic in a few stories, damn was it really nice to have an issue where Tails is forced to work solo, and adapt to an increasingly worsening situation.

Seeing so many call-backs to previous games, including the long-awaited return of the Tornado 2 mech, plus the increasing tension as Resistance HQ began to lessen communication, and Silver/Tangle /Whisper found themselves incapacitated. I loved seeing some of Tails' quirks from other series even making a return this time around. I sure as hell didn't expect a Sonic X character trait of his to make it into the IDW series of all things (The moment where Tails commends the Tornado 2 and thanked it for all of the great service it did reminded me exactly of the Cruise episode of Sonic X where Sonic convinced Tails that machines have feelings and the Tornado probably felt abandonment because of Tails leaving it). 

Long story short, both good issues, hope they're a lead-in to better stuff. 

 

[DabigRG]

17 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

It took awhile for my local comic shop to get Tangle and Whisper #2 in so I'm only just reading it today. That said, it and #21 have pleasantly surprised me with the high-quality writing, and more importantly, engaging me in the story.

  Hide contents

Discussing T&W2, I'm really beginning to enjoy Mimic as a villain, especially how he's now preying on both of the heroes' weaknesses. He's proving to be something this comic sorely needed to date, a villain who can provide personal stakes, and ironically, it feels nice when the first two arcs have been solely massive world ending plots instead of smaller but personal tales. 

 

Yeah, gotta give credit for that.

He also manages to be a dark villain without just being ridiculously overpowered.

17 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

It took awhile for my local comic shop to get Tangle and Whisper #2 in so I'm only just reading it today. That said, it and #21 have pleasantly surprised me with the high-quality writing, and more importantly, engaging me in the story.

  Hide contents

Using Tangle's lack of common sense against her, especially using Jewel to do it, even if it logistically doesn't make sense for her to be around was interesting,

 

That's the thing--she wasn't.

 

[Rouge_Witchy]

from 1-10 what do you rate the idw run so far?

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Rouge_Witchy said:

from 1-10 what do you rate the idw run so far?

6.5 -7 " Its aiight "

[SBR2]

I'd give it an 8 myself. It'd got a few minor issues but I feel like they're barely a factor. I enjoy it a lot. 

[dbzfan7]

6 most commonly sometimes 7. I don't usually feel like my time is wasted, but I don't usually feel it's well rewarded either. But it's more rewarded than wasted so it's around the average comic. 

[shdowhunt60]

I think that my chief beef with the arc now is that it's lost a lot of it's teeth.

Like, early on we were getting all sorts of fucked up imagery. Like, Zombot gore and children being ripped from the arms of their parents. Then Ian was hyping up Omega showing up, and what it was going to do with the zombots, and... Not much is there.

I wonder if SEGA/IDW saw the strong reactions people were having to #14 and #15, and then told them to dial it down. Which would be a shame.

The art in general these past couple issues has been really weak, and that just seems to be down to Tracey Yardley! taking a hiatus from the comic. It's not that these artists are even bad, but I think they're under a lot of pressure because Yardley! left and Evan Stanley is laser focusing on Tangle and Whisper, so that's two of the most important artists for the comic that aren't available to be working on the mainline issues. This past issue had a crazy amount of artists on it, and the art was kind of all over the place as a result.

Maybe when Evan Stanley can start working on the mainline issues again, things can stabilize a bit, but I hope that there can be a bit more manpower for by the time this supposed next miniseries hits.

Overall, I don't think the Zombot arc is particularly bad, but it is starting to falter now which is unfortunate considering how strong it started. This isn't quite the kid-friendly Walking Dead that we were promised early on.

[StaticMania]

Zombie Awareness Arc: 1/10

Too much body horror.

[MetalSkulkBane]

7 hours ago, Rouge_Witchy said:

from 1-10 what do you rate the idw run so far?

Scale 1-10 is a complete joke as eveything above 1 and below 5 is basically never used, And if some does, then what's the point? 20%, 40%, both mean "bad story, don't touch"

I prefer 1-6, it's all very clear

1: Zero redeming qualities or something actually offensive, damaging

2 Bad, but begrudenly you can say something nice about it. Or it's just reeeeally generic and boring

3 Time killer. Something you don't need to see, but I won't hurt either. Or "I see how others might like it"

4 Plain good. Glad I saw/read/play it but that's it.

5 Really good. I reccomend it, I might rewatch it the future, I hope for the sequel, I consider  myself a fan etc.

6 NOT PERFECTION. There is no such thing and expecting it is recipe for dissapointmet. With that said, it does something on exceptional level. Most likely it moved you on emotional level.

And don;t tell me that smaller scale can't express fully your opinion. No review can be boiled down to the numer. 

 

With that said, my opinion for IDW is a very confident 4 (or 7 for you barbarians out there),  with acknowlegment that it's precious to me much more, just because it's Sonic.

Putting my love for franchise aside, it's just good. It has action, comedy, art. and characters, but it almost never tries to engage you on a higher level. I'm rarely surprised, moved or supre duper hyped. More often I'm kinda dissapointed with low stakes and slow pace.

Now, was Archie Better? Reboot yes, but only thanks to Sonic Universe. Main book could get a little samey, actually a little worse than IDW.
With Preboot, I THINK Flynn's run was way better, but I read almost whole thing in 3-4 months and Reboot/IDW I read in normal issue-per-month way, so I have drastically different expiriences.

And if you wonder what I consider exceptional comic, I HIGHLY reccomend James Roberts  IDW Transformers writer of in "More than Meets the Eye" and "Lost Light" books. Every single packed tons of things happening, you could laugh, cry and be suprised in a same issue. It's the best thing this franchise ever made, even better than "Prime" or "Beast Wars". (I'm sorry Dinobot).

[DabigRG]

Something out there that briefly crossed my mind came up on Reddit.

Some extra weirdness not withstanding.

On 10/8/2019 at 11:28 PM, Rouge_Witchy said:

from 1-10 what do you rate the idw run so far?

Eh, a 7 is good.

It has some neat moments in places, but it's only seldom actually done much to really grab what it's working it. The variable handling of the characters is the obvious indication of that.

[Graystripe2000]

Preview pages from the next issue.

 

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

Tangle Whisper 3 previews too:

Spoiler

Whisper is so cute in that photo! Also calling it now, those Wisps Whisper has, each of them were with one member initially until the members were killed.

EDIT: NVM The photo already shows this

 

[Red Hot Jack]

Why the previews? Are these issues out next week? I thought they were gonna be released in 2 weeks...

Anyway, I want to recap various problems I have with the Metal Virus saga, it's definitely good and while it feels more dangerous, darker, bigger than season 1, I still think I enjoyed season 1 more, it was more simple and basic, yeah, but actually pretty fun? Battle for Angel Island was quite crazy and awesome, but it's not just that, I loved issues 5-8 too and I felt like more could have been done with that storyline, but yes, interactions, strategy, epic character moments, (short lived) badass fights, unexpected transformations, twists, new and connected threats to introduce us to season 2. It's why I loved that arc, even the first 4 issues were okay even though very slow.

Now my problems with season 2, it tries to do a lot of things but loses its way and the premise doesn't progress at all, the virus simply spreads over the world, in various zones, making it more dangerous, and that's good but...

1. There is basically censorship here, as noted by others, there was a unique trait of the Zombots, they were damageable and elastic, what happened to that? Now they are just boring random hordes of mindless zombies...

2. The whole Shadow messy situation: while I enjoy his stubborn attitude, his differences from Sonic, it just felt rushed... and not the way (apparently) Ian wanted it to go. I never expected Shadow to make a selfless sacrifice, but do something maybe? I don't know at this point. Even Zombot Shadow could have been given more... give him more skills, powers, maybe a bit of consciousness, rage, evilness... instead we got, another mindless Zombot. 

3. Lack of Knuckles: He's supposed to be one of the main characters, what happened to that? I get it, he's not leader material, but this is a world level crisis, why doesn't he show up? This has more to do with Ian's thinking, I assume. Also, to the fans of the character: "he should be doing his guardian duty on Angel Island" okay? But... wait, you are fans of Knuckles, why do you want him to be in off-screen land for a whole year? I feel like if there's a character who wouldn't have a minor role here, it's him.

4. Lack of Sticks: this is personal, I'm biased as I loved her. But... She's just made for this arc, that's her whole purpose, to fight in case of zombie robot apocalypse. If Sega thinks she's done along with Boom, I understand, but this is what I call a huge missed opportunity.

5. Silver and Dr. Starline: IMO more should be done with them to justify their presence, it was supposed to be quite a big arc for Silver, as he predicted this future in issue 8, his possible conflict with Starline, the bewly introduced villain, but again, they are not doing much, are they? Many things should be fleshed out more in this arc.

6. In general, more of how the Metal Virus works; it's really lacking and base, vague. Same for the cure Tails was working on.

So yep, this saga feels like it's rushed, not fleshed out enough and with several limitations/restrictions, important characters missing, lack of screentime, while for example, some characters are present that I personally would not have included, like Shadow, Rouge, Vector, Charmy, Espio, Whisper, it feels like it added some characters for the sake of it. But this is just my personal preference maybe. I don't know how Ian can work with a of this crap honestly. Tangle & Whisper surely works better because it's an OC story. Sorry to say that.

[Sonictrainer]

3 hours ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Preview pages from the next issue.

 

Spoiler

I want some Sonic shaped cookies now

Also, I'll keep that map in mind...

 

2 hours ago, Pumpkin Spice Ultima said:

Tangle Whisper 3 previews too:

  Hide contents

Whisper is so cute in that photo! Also calling it now, those Wisps Whisper has, each of them were with one member initially until the members were killed.

EDIT: NVM The photo already shows this

 

Spoiler

The Diamond Cutters and their Wispons look awesome!

 

[Big Panda]

 

...I’m sorry.

Also, this is another artist that doesn’t look familiar. Anyone know who it is?

[StaticMania]

Wow, Cream the Rabbit is really short for some reason...

Or Amy Rose is just taller.

[shdowhunt60]

56 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Wow, Cream the Rabbit is really short for some reason...

Or Amy Rose is just taller.

She really is just short. Shorter than Tails, and I'm pretty sure Tails is supposed to be shorter than Amy.