Sonic Forces- Classic GHZ Gameplay

[MudHunter]

I actually had the feeling that some of the hidden springs were put where they are as a way to punish the player for not jumping.

[BlueFlare]

I see Sonic's momentum just stop after hitting an object or enemy, as if you don't push forward you stop right away. This does not and should not happen with proper Sonic physics which this game does not seem to have. Movement seems very tacky and sluggish.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

That only happens on some of the enemies, actually. The first one does it, the second one and third group don't, the fourth one does, the fifth one doesn't, the sixth and seventh ones do, the eighth, ninth and tenth groups don't, the eleventh does, the twelfth doesn't, neither does the thirteenth or fourteenth. It's too random, too inconsistent to have actively been programmed that way. I'm thinking it's more likely the person playing is actively stopping themselves to pace the footage a bit better. There'd be no way for the momentum to just inconsistently stop you for some enemies and not others when the speed itself is relatively constant between all of them, especially since this is literally just the Generations engine. You really think they changed anything about Classic's momentum and control here? I don't. 

 

Also I really did go from enemy to enemy through that whole video checking off which bounces retained Sonic's momentum why am I doing this I have homework

[BubbleButt TV]

7 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Youtube trailer...

Bullshot...

Where the rings?

I'm guessing the footage we saw wasn't even the latest build of the game.

There's still hope then that maybe certain aspects of the level have been tweaked since this gameplay footage.

[JingleBoy]

9 hours ago, SweeCrue said:

Anyone else see the amazing rolling physics at 2:08?

TFW a dead motobug has better rolling physics than Sonic... ?

[Salamander]

7 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Youtube trailer...

Bullshot...

Where the rings?

The camera also appears to be zoomed slightly farther in in the screenshot, cutting off some of the details at the edges; the totem pole is the most conspicuous sign of this.  The lighting is different, too.  Between the Direct footage, the full playthrough, and the screenshots, we're looking at three recognisably different builds of the game.  Perhaps that's standard practice, but it seems a bit odd to me.

[JezMM]

Three possibilities I see: Different build as suggested, or the rings have literally been photoshopped in as a fairly non-offensive bit of false-advertising just to make the screenshot more interesting, or possibly the footage had a "dud" first take where they started the level, collected the rings in a perhaps slow/unexciting manner, were then like "wait no that was a bad start", walked back to the beginning of the level and started again without actually restarting the stage.

[Salamander]

I did consider the possibility that the different zoom was just the way the image had been edited; lighting could be an artifact of making an interesting screenshot, too (or just altered graphical settings for a screenshot run versus a footage-capture run).  That would account for these small differences while there's such a big difference between the Direct and the more recent GHZ footage.

At any rate, though, we can safely dismiss the conspiracy theory that the Direct GHZ footage was from a downgraded Switch build.  The Direct Modern footage was provably a different playthrough than the gameplay we'd already been shown; it makes no sense to propose that Sega's PR team took fresh footage from the PC build, then switched to a Switch build to take GHZ footage, while planning to later released PC-build footage of GHZ to the masses.  The idea that they only produced new misleading footage for Modern when they were both willing and able to provide equally misleading footage for Classic as well is inconsistent and therefore unlikely.

The more plausible explanation is this: Level design for the early game is more or less finished and in the process of being suitably beautified for the final product; Modern's city level was done first to showcase to fans and the media, with other levels like Green Hill Zone in a less finished state; Nintendo would have asked for footage for the Direct quite a long time before it aired and as such would have gotten more finished Modern footage and the less finished Classic footage; by the time the Direct actually came out, Green Hill Zone was a lot more polished and thus Sega could prepare this better and more recent material to release according to its own internal schedule.

[Jango]

Youtube trailer...

Bullshot...

Where the rings?

 

Where is the bullshot from? Also, it looks reaaaaallly nice. There's just the right ammount of detail and layers right now. It's a in between Gens and Lost World. I welcome this. It's still colorful and bright.

[Jango]

Sometimes the grass looks a bit too high for Sonic that's just so tiny :V I give you that.

[SuaveKnux]

Maybe the level looks much duller than the Generations version is to reflect Eggman winning the destruction/erosion it caused

[Blue Blood]

The supposed bullshots look gorgeous.The level of detail is absolutely on-point, and the soft blue lighting looks particularly lovely. To me as a seasoned fan, it does look like a visual improvement over Generations' GHZ and I can tell them apart easily. Plus, there's much less clutter and Sonic and the camera are fixed on a purely 2D plane, so it's much easier to recognise the foreground from the background. I'm not sure that more casual onlookers would notice the visual difference though - once again, this game looks so similar to Generations that it's almost hard to tell that they're not the same game. And I don't like the sand. It's poorly lit, so just looks like a relatively flat and static plane.

It's easy to miss entirely. What's the point?  It's also related entirely to the background. If SEGA had to insist on bringing Green Hill Zone back, they should have tried a bit harder to show that it's in a sorry state due to Eggman's interference. Cause at the moment, the only thing that's in a sorry state is SEGA's creative skills. Green Hill shouldn't be lush, vibrant and lively like this. The plant life ought to be suffering, the sky should be clouded over or filled with pollution and the overall colour scheme ought to give the impression of decay. At the moment, it is literally just Green Hill but with sand off in the distance. It's a lazy attempt really. Why doesn't the actual level layout incorporate some of the elements of ruin? 

Whilst we're on the subject of level design... fuck NO.

Boosters and springs galore. They don't serve any purpose beyond playing the game for you. And because they're still so shoddily programmed, they completely destroy any sense of flow and momentum. Every time he hits a booster or a spring, his speed to reset. There's even more evidence of invisible automation when he comes to the S-tunnels and the ramp that launches him into the air to grab some rings. Slopes and loops don't do anything, whilst the platforming is blocky. Even hitting enemies seems to be pretty broken - Sonic can come to a stop unnaturally. The physics are bad. 

Why is that rock even there? The level is perfectly flat at that point. It's not even a clever obstacle that brings inexperienced players to a stop before they run into danger or miss a jump. It's just pointless. The game has no flow, which is quite mind-boggling considering how much it wants to play itself. If you compare the level design to Sonic 1...

In Forces, Sonic comes hurtling off the ledge on the left courtesy of a booster and misses the swinging platform, but that doesn't matter because he hits the invisible spring that puts him back on the path anyway. He may also be approaching from a lower path, and the swing is still useless because the spring is so much easier and faster. The reward of grabbing a handful of rings for taking the swing doesn't pay off. In S1 however, it's a different story. There's a rock that stops Sonic from falling down to the lower route by mistake, but more experienced players might think to jump over it and land on the swing. The swing also serves as the main way of staying on the upper path. If Sonic falls, the player can either take him on a new lower path or make some clever use of the physics to scale the ramp and return to the upper route. There's no hidden spring doing the work for you. In fact, the only hidden item in the scene is a shield that you can miss if you rush through. 

Whilst all of these were issues in Generations, I could turn a blind eye to them back then. The game was an overall improvement over Sonic 4's attempt at Classic gameplay, and at least showed some effort. That's no longer the case with Forces now that it can be compared to Mania and shows no signs of improvement over the past 6 years. SEGA seems to be so arrogant/ignorant/inept/unconfident that they don't want to address any concerns. Arrogant because Generations got praised and therefore doesn't need fixing, ignorant because they don't understand the Classic Sonic formula that they're trying to emulate, inept because they literally lack the skills to make it better or unconfident because Generations was a fluke and they're worried that attempting to fix anything will result in a worse product. Take your pick - I personally think it's a combination of all four. They have no idea what they're actually doing.

Try harder, SEGA. 

[StaticMania]

It seems like the level design should be a bit more...interesting.

 

That's what everybody else thinks anyway. Seeing more of this game will be of interest...just to see how much of a problem this really is.

[JosepHenry]

I don't like how the music of this game is not finished... I really don't.

I hope the twist isn't MORE returning levels with some gimmick.

What if the only original stage from this game is the city level? That would be the absolute worst.

[Kintor]

24 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

I don't like how the music of this game is not finished... I really don't.

I hope the twist isn't MORE returning levels with some gimmick.

What if the only original stage from this game is the city level? That would be the absolute worst.

I'm sure we'll see more original levels in Sonic Forces. If nothing else, I find it interesting that modern Sonic's starting level is probably going to be that burning city and not the Green Hill Zone. So, while it's possible that modern Sonic will visit the Green Hill Zone later in the game these different starting locations for each version of Sonic certainly bodes well for original level design. Plus we've yet to see this mysterious third character and the kind of levels they use, which could be completely different to either classic or modern levels in visual style.

[JosepHenry]

I hope the next stuff that will be shown is new. But probably until E3 we are getting nothing.

 

And I hope Green Hill doesn't have a modern version.

Is all the matter of HOPE.

[Jango]

The level design is of a Megaman game, rather than a Classic Sonic one, at least is how I see it. The physics are nonexistent or scripted, so there's no slopes, ramps and stuff to play with... Actually, all the ramps they've added to the level design are just to shos how janky and off the 'physics' are.... They never should've created Classic Sonic's gameplay OVER Modern Sonic's gameplay...

 

The game still looks beautiful, tho'.

[StaticMania]

55 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

And I hope Green Hill doesn't have a modern version.

Is all the matter of HOPE.

Maybe Modern and Original Sonic the Hedgehogs will get completely original stages, separate from eachother.

[TheOcelot]

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

SWEET, BOOST PAD!

Try harder, SEGA. 

Well said, BB.

It's totally baffling as to what Sonic Team considers to be good design. I mean, with all the faults everyone here has pointed out I just can't get my head around how the developers working on this new version of Green Hill could honestly consider this to have good design. Maybe I'm missing something, but it's just plain bad. The fact that they've redesigned an iconic stage with a poor layout and physics which don't look any better than Gens or Sonic 4 (it would be bad enough if they did this to a completely new stage) just makes it seem like such an insult. Especially when there's another new version of GH being developed by StealthTax which looks and plays fantastic. Have they not learned everything? Do they care? What the fuck are they thinking? 

I'd quite like to see a developer diary series with insight into Forces design choices and stuff.

I've been waiting six years to play a new main series modern Sonic game on my PlayStation and based on what we've seen I'm finding it difficult to stay positive, to feel any kind of excitement. Sure, the graphics look really nice and Forces' instrumental main theme sounds rad, but that's about it.

I only ever replay Gens once in a blue moon because I got bored of it long ago and don't enjoy playing it anymore. Is Forces gonna be another game to add to the pile of Sonic games where I play briefly and then just leave it to gather dust? Hope not.

 

On a more positive note, there's nothing wrong with the Sonic fanbase!

 

 

[Jango]

I think Green Hill still looks bright and lush because this isn't the future yet. OR. When Eggman brough Classic Sonic to the future (I'm still confused was WHY?) he literally brough EVERYTHING, including Green Hill, and threw it in the middle of a desert.

[JezMM]

I will say, the unique but very static background scenery, the lack of camera angle changes, and the lack of complicated scripted "spectacle" events does make this feel like it could be a really-well made Sonic Generations fan-level, I have to admit.

Like, it's a completely fair design choice to get rid of camera-angle changes and fancy scripted events - hopefully this bodes well for a larger number of levels than usual - but that overall "aesthetic" is one I relate so very strongly to fanmade stages for Generations which is just... not really bad but odd to get used to.

[Blue Blood]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

The level design is of a Megaman game, rather than a Classic Sonic one, at least is how I see it. The physics are nonexistent or scripted, so there's no slopes, ramps and stuff to play with... Actually, all the ramps they've added to the level design are just to shos how janky and off the 'physics' are.... They never should've created Classic Sonic's gameplay OVER Modern Sonic's gameplay...

 

3

So much this!

The modern gameplay has the same flaws stemming from physics and automation, but because you spend so much time boosting and using the homing attack that you can ignore it. Classic's gameplay doesn't afford such shortcuts and lazy design. You can liken it to when Dimps attempted to create Classic gameplay over Rush's gameplay. It fundamentally does not work.

[Nepenthe]

The sand being relegated to the background is one of the few things I will say "Let's wait and see on this."

Clearly it's there because something is wrong. What that is, we don't know. It acts perfectly fine right now as a disparate element, an oddity, some peculiar thing that just isn't quite right amid the rest of what is a more traditional rendition of Green Hill, before it's revealed in a later level as a major element or plot device.

It is- pardon my comparison to an inevitably better game- nearly the same thing with the malicious Hyrule Castle in Breath of the Wild. The game has a similar Unleashed-like gimmick wherein life continues on peacefully and happily despite the ominous sign that Armageddon is about to bust loose and destroy everything any minute. This is weird but very deliberate, and a design decision I inherently like a lot, because it maintains a framework wherein high stakes exist perpetually without sacrificing opportunities for charm and lightheartedness. "Helped this dude with a picture of some magical item. Oh yeah, I still need to get to you Ganon, you little shitbag." "Having fun humoring Chun-Nan's doctor, but I'm about to transform tonight again." "It's another beautiful day in Green Hill-- fuck is up with the water?" Contrast!

So should the rest of Green Hill be utterly decimated and take on a more somber feel than usual? I mean, maybe; that would be one valid way to do it, and it would certainly be a really shocking opening that would justify using this goddamn fucking level again. But without any context with the rest of the game, I don't think we can't call this a squandered opportunity yet. So I'll give Sonic Team a pass on that, provided that they actually make up for it later in the game.

[Jango]

The level design is of a Megaman game, rather than a Classic Sonic one, at least is how I see it. The physics are nonexistent or scripted, so there's no slopes, ramps and stuff to play with... Actually, all the ramps they've added to the level design are just to shos how janky and off the 'physics' are.... They never should've created Classic Sonic's gameplay OVER Modern Sonic's gameplay...

  3

So much this!

The modern gameplay has the same flaws stemming from physics and automation, but because you spend so much time boosting and using the homing attack that you can ignore it. Classic's gameplay doesn't afford such shortcuts and lazy design. You can liken it to when Dimps attempted to create Classic gameplay over Rush's gameplay. It fundamentally does not work.

 

Yeah, it should've been its own thing from the beginning. But no, let's just update our graphic engine and call it a day :V Seriously, I seriously wouldn't have mind if Sonic Team hired DIMPS to program Classic Sonic. It's actually pretty good in Gens 3DS, but people seem to forget about it. Then again, even if the physics worked right, we would still have bad level design... Or not? Nothing can save Forces (jk).

[Adamabba]

Actually when the Sonic channel uploaded the footage on its channel afterwards, they gave us a bit of a descripton as to why it's sandy this time.

Quote

 Classic Sonic discovers that Green Hill Zone is looking more dry and sandy under Eggman's rule, from the heavy desertification caused by his industries.